Who would be the villain

[Greens]

Slade was great as the main villain on the Teen Titans cartoon and Arrow, and it wasn't just because of him looking cool or being a great fighter. He was great in both the animated universe and the live-action TV universe, it would be nice if he was used similarly in a movie. It should not be in a Batman movie though, but rather a Teen Titan/Nightwing one. If not that, then Green Arrow.

I honestly don't see why he would be great in a Titans movie but not in a Batman movie. What exactly is the invisible barrier where he goes from great to not so great? Don't tell me you wouldn't like to see Batfleck and Deathstroke go toe to toe. It could be amazing.

 

[Greens]

Looking cool and kicking ass are superficial reasons I imagine 7 year olds saying about characters like Rocksteady and Bebop in TMNT. No offense meant. If I want someone for main villain material, those are not in the top 2 reasons of why said villain should be chosen. Story and character come first.

Again, I don't need him as the main villain.

I hate to pull this card but we're talking about comic book movies here. If Hawkeye couldn't kick some ass or pull out some witty one-liners I wouldn't give a **** about him. Some characters are there to be cool and entertaining and guess what... I like cool and entertaining characters.

 

[The Joker]

Forgive me, I thought we were talking about main villain material here. If you want Deathstroke reduced to side villain, he's competent enough to pull that off.

Ironic you mention Hawkeye. His lack of character development and being reduced to just a wise cracking ass kicker with no depth or development in Avengers was a point of criticism, that's why they dove into the character's personal life in the sequel.

 

[regwec]

Deathstroke would make a fine henchman for someone more interesting, except that he is rather overpowered for that.

The Penguin is an important cornerstone of Batman's rogues gallery because there are facets of his character and motivations that create unique conflicts with Batman and Bruce Wayne when the two are set in opposition to one another. Conversely, there are any number of nonchalant "badass" antiheroes in comics, and Deathstroke is merely one of the better known.

 

[Slade W]

I honestly don't see why he would be great in a Titans movie but not in a Batman movie. What exactly is the invisible barrier where he goes from great to not so great? Don't tell me you wouldn't like to see Batfleck and Deathstroke go toe to toe. It could be amazing.

A fight between Batman and Slade could be very cool, but I don't want him to be just used for exciting fight scenes. With the Teen Titans he would be the main villain, and with Green Arrow he could be one of his main villains. With Batman, he would be below a lot of his other villains who have more history with him. There are more quality stories with Slade and the Teen Titans in the comics than there is with him and Batman, and he was great with Green Arrow on Arrow too. He was used terribly with Batman in Son of Batman and Beware the Batman. Of course they could do a great job and improve on those, but I think it is less likely, and I would rather he is used with characters that he has featured in great stories with before.

 

[Greens]

Conversely, there are any number of nonchalant "badass" antiheroes in comics, and Deathstroke is merely one of the better known.

Okay, so why not pick Deathstroke? I don't see the point here.

 

[regwec]

Goodness me...

 

[Greens]

He was used terribly with Batman in Son of Batman and Beware the Batman. Of course they could do a great job and improve on those, but I think it is less likely, and I would rather he is used with characters that he has featured in great stories with before.

Beware the Batman and Son of Batman are hardly hailed as great pieces of Batman lore. Those are just dull pieces of entertainment altogether.

 

[Greens]

Goodness me...

Not seeing a point here, either.

 

[Slade W]

Beware the Batman and Son of Batman are hardly hailed as great pieces of Batman lore. Those are just dull pieces of entertainment altogether.

Agreed, but my point still stands. He has featured in good stories with the Teen Titans and Green Arrow before, so I think it is more likely that he will be used well with them in the future than he will with Batman. Simply using him for cool fight scenes is a waste. He is capable of more than that that, which he has done with Green Arrow and the Teen Titans, both in the comics and on TV.

 

[Boom]

Penguin worked in Batman Returns because they gave him a ridiculously goofy plan, which I loved.. but you can't do that again.

No, you can't do that again. What you can do, however, is have an arms-dealer Penguin pulling the strings of various Gotham mob bosses, turning them against each other and sparking all-out gang warfare in Gotham City. All a part of Penguin's play to consolidate power under his control.

It's one thing to simply dislike a character and not have an interest in seeing them. That's fine. But it is incredibly disheartening to see fans insisting that one of Batman's oldest and most iconic antagonists cannot work as a major threat in a feature-length film unless he's turned into some Burton-esque monstrosity who lives in sewers and abducts children.

Deathstroke isn't even a primary Batman villain, correct? He's more consistently depicted as a Green Arrow or Teen Titans foe, isn't he? Forgetting Penguin for a moment, we still have an entire stable of great Batman villains to use before we start delving into shared antagonists.

 

[regwec]

Not seeing a point here, either.

Okay then, here we go:

Deathstroke would make a fine henchman for someone more interesting, except that he is rather overpowered for that.

Here I am laying out the premise for the rest of my (quite short) post. I make it clear that I do acknowledge DS's appeal, but qualify that by stating that his appeal is subsidiary to that of other characters.

The Penguin is an important cornerstone of Batman's rogues gallery...

Here I reintroduce The Penguin as a significant figure in the Batman mythos. As this statement has immediately followed the suggestion that there are characters better suited to be a primary villain than DS, it is tolerably clear that I am implying that The Penguin is one such character.

...because there are facets of his character and motivations that create unique conflicts with Batman and Bruce Wayne when the two are set in opposition to one another.

This comment has two purposes. Firstly, it sets out what I consider to be the key traits that qualify a character as "an important cornerstone of Batman's rogues gallery" (see above). Secondly, I am asserting that The Penguin possesses these traits.

Conversely, there are any number of nonchalant "badass" antiheroes in comics, and Deathstroke is merely one of the better known.

Now I shift my argument. I contrast the aforesaid "cornerstone" rogues with a far wider group of interchangeable "badass" characters and then- WHAM!- I identify DS as one of these. Boom! I have outlined why I believe The Penguin to be a more significant and interesting antagonist for Batman than DS.

 

[Greens]

Okay then, here we go:



Here I am laying out the premise for the rest of my (quite short) post. I make it clear that I do acknowledge DS's appeal, but qualify that by stating that his appeal is subsidiary to that of other characters.



Here I reintroduce The Penguin as a significant figure in the Batman mythos. As this statement has immediately followed the suggestion that there are characters better suited to be a primary villain than DS, it is tolerably clear that I am implying that The Penguin is one such character.



This comment has two purposes. Firstly, it sets out what I consider to be the key traits that qualify a character as "an important cornerstone of Batman's rogues gallery" (see above). Secondly, I am asserting that The Penguin possesses these traits.



Now I shift my argument. I contrast the aforesaid "cornerstone" rogues with a far wider group of interchangeable "badass" characters and then- WHAM!- I identify DS as one of these. Boom! I have outlined why I believe The Penguin to be a more significant and interesting antagonist for Batman than DS.

Why do you think I quoted that last section and not the entire post? I was wondering why, for the purpose that Deathstroke serves, it was such a problem for him to be picked and not one of the interchangeable characters if it's all the same to you. Unless you don't want one of those characters to be in the movie at all, of course. I didn't mean to REPLACE Penguin with Deathstroke.

I acknowledge your points about Penguin, which is why I didn't counter them.

This is my opinion:

I'm not particularly interested in seeing Penguin as the main villain of this movie. I'm NOT discounting his history or his characteristics. The Burton thing was an off-hand comment about his live action history so far.
I would like Deathstroke to serve some purpose in the movie, because I like the character.

That's it. If you disagree, that's fine. There's hundreds of villains to choose from and everyone's got their preferences.

 

[dude stannis]

That's it. If you disagree, that's fine. There's hundreds of villains to choose from and everyone's got their preferences.

Deathstroke Rebirth is really good, I'd love to see Batman going against Deathstroke if they take that kind of John Milius/Joe Carnahan approach to the character. Batman against him in a survival situation in the woods rather than the typical city stuff, or maybe the characters going against each other with the film as kind of an urban western would be fantastic.

 

[Reek]

How are those weak reasons? I want entertaining characters in my Batman movies, and Slade is an example of one if done right. On top of a good story, I want to see characters kick some ****ing ass, especially after we saw what the possibilities were in BvS.

If I had to choose between Penguin and Deathstroke I would pick Deathstroke any day of the week. That doesn't mean Penguin isn't a legitimate villain or that he does not have a rich history in the comics, but my mind is just not set on him right now. By the way, I'm not saying I specifically want him as THE villain. I would like him to be a side character, maybe the main villain hired him.

Looking cool and kicking ass are superficial reasons I imagine 7 year olds saying about characters like Rocksteady and Bebop in TMNT. No offense meant. If I want someone for main villain material, those are not in the top 2 reasons of why said villain should be chosen. Story and character come first.

Indirectly calling someone a 7 year old with 'no offense meant' after it doesn't change the fact you're being condescending... just saying.

 

[Greens]

Deathstroke Rebirth is really good, I'd love to see Batman going against Deathstroke if they take that kind of John Milius/Joe Carnahan approach to the character. Batman against him in a survival situation in the woods rather than the typical city stuff, or maybe the characters going against each other with the film as kind of an urban western would be fantastic.

I loved how he was almost a mythical figure to the people in that country.

 

[Omegabat]

Oh yes he can. A lot more than Slade, too.



A reputed writer saying it rather than the DC higher ups is even less impressive. Said writer doesn't run the company. Doesn't make the character decisions.

Penguin doesn't stand in the background. He has been front and center of many stories as a significant threat.



If all you've seen is Penguin doing nothing but just running a club then you've either been doing selective reading, or you haven't touched a Batman comic since 1995.

Penguin's significance is shown even beyond the comics. He's been a major villain in the movies, the TV series, the animated series, the Arkham games, and now the current Gotham TV show.

Where's the eagerness to put Slade on screen as a major villain if he's all that and a bag of peanuts?

Wolfman's Titans run is considered one of the best runs in DC history, Penguin has nothing to boast about, sorry but not even close, you're letting your bias cloud your judgment.Even PAP is merely a decent piece in comic villain literature at it's best.

A writer saying it means a lot more than the company, I've already proven that with the Jason Todd example. As long as Priest writes an acclaimed and fairly length run(48 or so issues, easily accomplished with a twice monthly schedule) then his ideas will stick for a long time to come,besides DC has made him Milestone's Geoff Johns. He's a priority creator and Slade is a priority character, Penguin cant boast of either.

Please tell me what stories I should be reading, the last I saw him he was getting skewered by Mr Bloom and dangling off a rope which is like 90% of the time

He was a major villain in one movie a quarter of a century ago that completely revamped him and he still got overshadowed by Catwoman and Shreck.
He's a side freak in the Arkham material.
Overall he has as much exposure as a staple Bat villain can get, not due to any special quality but simply by being part of Batman's world. But there is no concentrated effort to do anything with him. Even Gotham is suffering from this, they decided to bring back Fish Mooney because fighting her is the only thing he's good for, either that or they bring in the bully of the week for him to double cross, this is before I even mention "Nygmobblepot".

 

[dude stannis]

I loved how he was almost a mythical figure to the people in that country.

Yeah, imagine with Batman and Deathsroke, that kind of humid, sweaty deep in the pit of hell feeling from Apocalypse Now or Predator, where piece by piece they're avoiding each other's traps, taking out each other's gadgets and in the end it's this grimy fatalistic mano a mano confrontation between the two. It doesn't need to be the whole film obviously, but I think there's more to mine out of story and themes with something like that rather than Batman going up against mobsters again.

 

[Omegabat]

No, you can't do that again. What you can do, however, is have an arms-dealer Penguin pulling the strings of various Gotham mob bosses, turning them against each other and sparking all-out gang warfare in Gotham City. All a part of Penguin's play to consolidate power under his control.

It's one thing to simply dislike a character and not have an interest in seeing them. That's fine. But it is incredibly disheartening to see fans insisting that one of Batman's oldest and most iconic antagonists cannot work as a major threat in a feature-length film unless he's turned into some Burton-esque monstrosity who lives in sewers and abducts children.

Deathstroke isn't even a primary Batman villain, correct? He's more consistently depicted as a Green Arrow or Teen Titans foe, isn't he? Forgetting Penguin for a moment, we still have an entire stable of great Batman villains to use before we start delving into shared antagonists.

Which is a disservice to other villains and wont happen(at least it shouldn't), DC wants to push Black Mask in that role. They can get the same mileage from him as Penguin along with what they probably think is a cooler looking and more intimidating character. They're not going to give a damn about history or 60's tv show. If all that was important then Dr Death, Hugo Strange, Carl Kruger and the Monk would have replaced Joker, Penguin, Riddler/Two-Face and Freeze/Ivy in the first 4 movies and Ra's & Bane would have never made it to the Nolan movies or Harley Quinn and Croc to Suicide Squad. Serious business doesn't care about nostalgia.

I'm not advocating for Slade, I too would rather have him in Teen Titans but if WB wants an inverse Batman as the main villain then Slade is their best bet. Bane has already been used twice while Killer Moth, Catman etc are likely to be laughed upon, Owlman is too contrived and complicated to use.

Similarly if they want a crime boss who is connected to the Waynes' then Black Mask is a more likely candidate.

There is no competition between Penguin and Deathstroke because they're completely different types of villains, it's just that Slade has a better shot at making it if WB goes for his particular type of villainy whereas Penguin has to deal with Black Mask and worse Joker who too has become a night club owning thug in this universe. Penguin has worse to worry about, Slade will make it to a movie anyway, it could be SS, BOP or even JL. Penguin can only make it to a Batman film and even there his chances are looking slim, no pun intended.
Penguin fans should be more worried about Joker, Hush and Black Mask and frankly a good chunk of Batman's rogues. Deathstroke has to compete with an entirely different set of players and in Slade's case his competition is weaker (Bane and Prometheus are the only challenges) and the list is much shorter.

 

[BlZARRO]

Which is a disservice to other villains and wont happen(at least it shouldn't), DC wants to push Black Mask in that role. They can get the same mileage from him as Penguin along with what they probably think is a cooler looking and more intimidating character. They're not going to give a damn about history or 60's tv show. If all that was important then Dr Death, Hugo Strange, Carl Kruger and the Monk would have replaced Joker, Penguin, Riddler/Two-Face and Freeze/Ivy in the first 4 movies and Ra's & Bane would have never made it to the Nolan movies or Harley Quinn and Croc to Suicide Squad. Serious business doesn't care about nostalgia.

I'm not advocating for Slade, I too would rather have him in Teen Titans but if WB wants an inverse Batman as the main villain then Slade is their best bet. Bane has already been used twice while Killer Moth, Catman etc are likely to be laughed upon, Owlman is too contrived and complicated to use.

Similarly if they want a crime boss who is connected to the Waynes' then Black Mask is a more likely candidate.

There is no competition between Penguin and Deathstroke because they're completely different types of villains, it's just that Slade has a better shot at making it if WB goes for his particular type of villainy whereas Penguin has to deal with Black Mask and worse Joker who too has become a night club owning thug in this universe. Penguin has worse to worry about, Slade will make it to a movie anyway, it could be SS, BOP or even JL. Penguin can only make it to a Batman film and even there his chances are looking slim, no pun intended.
Penguin fans should be more worried about Joker, Hush and Black Mask and frankly a good chunk of Batman's rogues. Deathstroke has to compete with an entirely different set of players and in Slade's case his competition is weaker (Bane and Prometheus are the only challenges) and the list is much shorter.

Why is Black Mask better than the Penguin?

 

[dude stannis]

There is no competition between Penguin and Deathstroke because they're completely different types of villains, it's just that Slade has a better shot at making it if WB goes for his particular type of villainy whereas Penguin has to deal with Black Mask and worse Joker who too has become a night club owning thug in this universe.

The vast majority of Penguin's comic appearances since as far back as... Knightfall I'd say.... show him as an obsolete gangster who barely scrapes by as a crime broker and ends up face planting when he attempts to raise above that level. Slade on the other hand has a rich tapestry of story arcs, even as recently as a comic that hit shelves last wednesday.

Black Mask has easily superceded Penguin as the "crime boss" of Batman's rogues, so I'd much rather see him if that's where they want to go.

 

[The Joker]

Indirectly calling someone a 7 year old with 'no offense meant' after it doesn't change the fact you're being condescending... just saying.

No I'm not. I'm being honest. I'm not indirectly calling him anything either. If I wanted to be condescending I wouldn't tell him no offense was meant. Just saying.

Wolfman's Titans run is considered one of the best runs in DC history, Penguin has nothing to boast about, sorry but not even close, you're letting your bias cloud your judgment.Even PAP is merely a decent piece in comic villain literature at it's best.

So what if Wolfman's Titans run is considered one of the best runs? Steve Englehart's run in Batman is considered one of the best runs in Batman, but it didn't stop his return in 2005 for the Dark Detective arc being totally forgettable.

There is no bias, there is just reality.

A writer saying it means a lot more than the company, I've already proven that with the Jason Todd example. As long as Priest writes an acclaimed and fairly length run(48 or so issues, easily accomplished with a twice monthly schedule) then his ideas will stick for a long time to come,besides DC has made him Milestone's Geoff Johns. He's a priority creator and Slade is a priority character, Penguin cant boast of either.

You've proven nothing with Jason Todd. The company not the writer dictate the direction of their characters and the writers follow suit. The fact DC didn't follow through on their word about Todd doesn't prove a thing other than they didn't bother to follow through on what they said. Writers have done the same thing.

Please tell me what stories I should be reading, the last I saw him he was getting skewered by Mr Bloom and dangling off a rope which is like 90% of the time

How about the recent storyline where Penguin became Mayor of Gotham, divided it up among the Arkham inmates, and has Bane working for him.

He was a major villain in one movie a quarter of a century ago that completely revamped him and he still got overshadowed by Catwoman and Shreck.

That's one more movie than Deathstroke has had, and your claim on who overshadowed him is nothing but opinion. In fact the reason WB wanted him in the movie is because he was the second biggest villain after Joker.

He's a side freak in the Arkham material.

No, Bane is an example of a side freak in them. Penguin is a major villain in them with his own territory and an actual threat and obstacle to Batman in them.

Overall he has as much exposure as a staple Bat villain can get, not due to any special quality but simply by being part of Batman's world.

If that were the case the likes of Mad Hatter, Scarecrow etc would have had as much exposure and prominence as he has said.

But there is no concentrated effort to do anything with him. Even Gotham is suffering from this, they decided to bring back Fish Mooney because fighting her is the only thing he's good for, either that or they bring in the bully of the week for him to double cross, this is before I even mention "Nygmobblepot".

Opinion again. If there's one positive that is consistently cited about that show is their handling of The Penguin. He is one of the undisputed highlights of it.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I'm fine with Deathstroke being in this film (in fact I welcome it!) but he's a hired gun (or sword). The ULTIMATE one. He shouldn't be the guy with the big evil plan to destroy the city or whatever, or if he is, it should be at the behest of whoever hired him. That's why the Arrow version bothered me so much; Slade isn't some lunatic who wants to kill everyone in a city just to get revenge. If he works for someone who wants that, okay.

I feel like with Deathstroke, there should always be a way that the character could potentially be redeemed. Yeah, he's a bad guy, but he's not like the Joker in that he wants to see a bunch of innocent people die. That's not to say that he won't kill innocent people, but for him, it's collateral damage; it's part of the job. A means to an end.

 

[Slade W]

Deathstroke works well as both IMO. He was great as the villain with the plan to destroy the city in both the Teen Titans cartoon and Arrow.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I guess it depends on how they want to craft the character. I LOVED him on Arrow until they had him go all psycho after taking the Mericuru (sp?). When he was on the island, he was perfect. But after that, I didn't care for his arc. Never watched the Titans cartoon so I'm not sure how he was on that. But in all the comics I've read with him, he's a ruthless killing machine of course, but he's a merc. He's amoral, but not diabolical. If they go the uber-evil route with him, I feel like it's a disservice to the character. But that's just me.