Arrow Who's done with ARROW, for killing SPOILER off?

[DrCosmic]

But why should he in anyway be batman in the first place when that means he cannot be Green Arrow which is why the show fails from the start in my opinion. They were never interested in Green Arrow but only writing a Batman story.

Yeah my point about writers was because this shows fails from the start if the character they claim to write for a tv show is not there.
Since they do not know their audience why assume that an intelligent good show about Green Arrow and not batclone is not going to succeed. So their job is writing a good Green Arrow show and making it work for the audience. You seem to ignore my point isn't about whether this show is good or not but whether it explores and write an intelligent Green Arrow story which is why this show failed and died as soon as it showed its interest in Batman not Green Arrow

I didn't ignore your points, I countered them. If Arrow fails because it didn't show Green Arrow from the start, then Daredevil also fails, which it doesn't, meaning 'there from the start' isn't a good judge of whether there is interest in the finished character. If starting as a batclone is bad, then the comics, which we agree did the same, are also bad, and had no interest in Green Arrow.

I suggest that they *did* know their audience, which was why the show was such a runaway success. To me, they did start a great Green Arrow story. Every complaint GA should have about Batman wasn't just 'intelligent' it became real and emotional as well for Green Arrow in a way that wouldn't have happened if he didn't learn those lessons the hard way. And perhaps this me just not being as big a fan as you, but I'm much more interested in a Green Arrow that knows he could have been Batman and chose not to for great reasons than one where an objectively inferior vigilante takes political umbridge with a Batman that doesn't exist in his universe.

I'd say that what you're talking about has never been a problem I've had with the show, except that I'm not sure what Batman qualities you think Oliver was supposed to eschew after Season 1. I don't see that season by itself as being about Oliver being wrong, either; I see it as existing in a morally gray world where there is no obvious right answer. It's only in the following seasons that I feel the show became about him evolving away from how he did things (in some ways).

Arrow Season 2 Opening Monologue:
"My name is Oliver Queen. After "five years on a hellish island," I have come home with only one goal, to save my city. But to do so, I can't be the killer I once was. To honor my friend's memory, I must be someone else. I must be... something else."

Morally grey, it was, but the season ended with him finding the right answer: self sacrifice, the core of true heroism. It was how he defeated Malcolm, and its what made Tommy's memory so imporant, and everything else proved to be ultimately ineffectual. Tommy became who Oliver was supposed to be. He became unambiguously right, dying to save a girl that wasn't even his. Tommy saw the temptation to be like Malcolm and rejected it. Oliver, after all this experience, after being touched by all of this and spending several months reflecting on this came back with the epiphany that he should... follow in Malcolm's footsteps, just don't kill people... directly. That's a sudden turn of poor writing, imho.

The thing he was supposed to eschew was Malcolm's gray area. Specifcally Malcolm's compromise where it became beating up poor folks was seen as an answer to crime, where vengeance is a legitimate path to goodness. That grey area became evil. That's at the core of who and what Green Arrow is and his complaints about society and people like Batman. Malcolm showed in vivid color why that approach is evil, insane and unproductive. Oliver experienced, quite painfully that trying to beat Malcolm at his own game gets people killed. Tommy demonstrated, vividly, that self sacrifice, saving people, even criminals like Roy, is what Oliver does and should value. The show then set up a situation where the Glades desperately needed help. And then it just became about whether he would kill people or not, and the help for the Glades storyline became a springboard for a villain instead of a hero.

And it's not just that Malcolm as a dark parellel for Oliver also serves as a stand in for an evil Batman by the transitive property, but even without Malcolm, while wealth for Batman is a super power, wealth for Oliver was a prison, something he distanced himself from the very beginning, something possessed by his mother which had led her to become an evil person by association with the corrupt powerful. There were no sweet martyr Marthas here. The Queen Wealth was dirty, and Ollie didn't want to touch it in Season 1. Ollie's playboy status, which for him was not fake like it was for Bruce, worked against his goals and relationships, and it was something he needed to shed. Him adopting the Bruce Wayne public persona in S2 made absolutely no sense, which is why he kept on contradicting himself because the writers were trying to change the natural storyline to keep him as a Bat-clone, and trying to find ways where going back what he learned in S1 made sense, somehow.

But it didn't stop there. Quentin Lance's critique of the vigilante's methods were painted as right and correct. As were Tommy's. Running around on rooftops scaring the ish out of people on a whim is a dick move, and not actually that effective. We're so used to Batman doing it we've kinda been brainwashed, but here in S1 of Arrow, all of a sudden, it was a problem. Quentin was never the obstructive beurocrat. He was always sympathetic, always justified, and in the end, as true a hero as Tommy. Living up to the standard set by Quentin, getting his approval, was set up as a big thing that needed to be paid off. It was, in a way, but the points Lance had made about the vigilante weren't actually addressed.

This was exacerbated by having someone looking up to Roy that Oliver knew he had to set an example for, someone coming from the Glades, no less.

I don't know man, they set up a really great Green Arrow show, imho. Then they just let all the storylines drop in favor of melodrama and didn't live up to the promises of evolving Oliver, they just had him taking inexplicable non-kill shots. Its that much worse when he's got Diggle there shooting people with guns, because at the end of the day, the show wasn't ready, and still may not be, to take the risk of making a show that's unique.

In my headcanon, they actually did Green Arrow right, where he became outspoken against all the things that had made his life and the lives of those around him so horrible, and we all could feel that without having to have liked/known him in the comics. With Green Arrow being the lighter adventurer brigning hope to the downtrodden, a veritable modern day Robin Hood, it would have stood out to be the "True Superhero Show" that Flash eventually became known and praised for. It wouldn't have been overtaken by Flash in the same way, because while Batman is more popular than GA, Batman isn't unique, and the dark brooding vigilante is being done in a superior way over on Netflix and now in the movies. An Arrow who had rejectd all of Malcolm's ways, who eventually had to be Green Arrow because there was all these Red and Black Arrows around, that would have been a really forward moving show that wouldn't have gotten stuck in such a rut because it would have more going on than shipping. They still could have done that too, but Slade would have more to do with his motivations for employing Blood rather than just being Shado-crazy.

From there, Flash would have been then equally new. Still super powered, and costumed, but it would have lived up to the promise of hte Pilot, a CSI doing all this cool invetigating usually relegated to Batman-like vigilantes, doing his battles primarily at night (when CGI effects are easier to make happen because lighting reasons). So much less about Flash trying to pick up where Superman left off and inspiring Hope and getting into drag out fights with supers, and much more an obsessive detective whose main problem is finding people, because honestly, once Flash shows up, there shouldn't be much fight, because the dude is so fast. The show had hints of that, but Flash has other problems with direction changing that happened before the show even came out, and while it certainly had a grand first season, it's self contradictions are a topic for another day.

But because Arrow didn't use the batclone-ness as a springboard into something new, like the comics did, the show was doomed, even during the much beloved S2. Whoever knew the audience when forming S1 apparently didn't have any say so going forward, and the show is now one of those 'remember when it was good' shows. Of course, some people never thought it was good, but, hey, can't win 'em all.

That's my $0.02 (maybe like 3 or four cents at this rate).

 

[Fincher]

In my headcanon, they actually did Green Arrow right, where he became outspoken against all the things that had made his life and the lives of those around him so horrible, and we all could feel that without having to have liked/known him in the comics. With Green Arrow being the lighter adventurer brigning hope to the downtrodden, a veritable modern day Robin Hood, it would have stood out to be the "True Superhero Show" that Flash eventually became known and praised for. It wouldn't have been overtaken by Flash in the same way, because while Batman is more popular than GA, Batman isn't unique, and the dark brooding vigilante is being done in a superior way over on Netflix and now in the movies. An Arrow who had rejectd all of Malcolm's ways, who eventually had to be Green Arrow because there was all these Red and Black Arrows around, that would have been a really forward moving show that wouldn't have gotten stuck in such a rut because it would have more going on than shipping. They still could have done that too, but Slade would have more to do with his motivations for employing Blood rather than just being Shado-crazy.

From there, Flash would have been then equally new. Still super powered, and costumed, but it would have lived up to the promise of hte Pilot, a CSI doing all this cool invetigating usually relegated to Batman-like vigilantes, doing his battles primarily at night (when CGI effects are easier to make happen because lighting reasons). So much less about Flash trying to pick up where Superman left off and inspiring Hope and getting into drag out fights with supers, and much more an obsessive detective whose main problem is finding people, because honestly, once Flash shows up, there shouldn't be much fight, because the dude is so fast. The show had hints of that, but Flash has other problems with direction changing that happened before the show even came out, and while it certainly had a grand first season, it's self contradictions are a topic for another day.

But because Arrow didn't use the batclone-ness as a springboard into something new, like the comics did, the show was doomed, even during the much beloved S2. Whoever knew the audience when forming S1 apparently didn't have any say so going forward, and the show is now one of those 'remember when it was good' shows. Of course, some people never thought it was good, but, hey, can't win 'em all.

That's my $0.02 (maybe like 3 or four cents at this rate).

It's cool that that's what you wanted from the show, but speaking as one person who didn't read the comics, I didn't specifically expect him to stop killing and would have found it jarring if the show changed its M.O. this thoroughly and quickly. Not that I speak for the GA, but I wouldn't assume that they saw Season 1 as proving Batman wrong and calling for an overhaul. Like...you focus on the sacrifice at the end of the season, but it was an act of sacrifice on Oliver's father's part that put him on the path to being a killer and stressed that the series wouldn't be all sunshine and rainbows. As I saw it, the ending was big on heroism because it was the big finale of the season, but it still had some of the moral ambiguity and darkness of the series. Oliver stopped one of the earthquake devices, but not the other. He showed sacrifice to stop Malcolm, but he also (supposedly) killed him to do so. Tommy died in a heroic and non-violent way, but he also made peace with who Oliver was.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I've been really surprised to see the reaction to her death. Mostly, because I was one of the five people who liked Laurel from the start. She seemed to have an uphill battle with fans. The memes with Laurel, and Cassidy's acting, seemed to indicate how hated she was by the fans.

Which is a testament to how far they came, because I guess she wound up winning alot of people over. Everyone seemed to hate her. There were polls here where the majority (by a lot) were saying they wanted her killed off. I can't even remember the numbers of times I had to defend Laurel (and Cassidy, and her acting) to fans who felt so strongly about her needing to be sent off. I'm just impressed at how far she came, because at some point the tide turned immensely. Like...legendary, "other writers need to study how they did this" changing of the majority of opinion about this one character that so many people hated with a passion.

I guess it was a gut punch, too. The moment when she finally becomes liked, and wins over everyone (after being the punching bag for fans for years) is when they do it.

I have to disagree with anyone who says it was sexist. Especially when you consider how women seem to outnumber men on Team Arrow. And what, killing off Dig would have been better? I also think it's absurd, wanting to have minority characters treated differently is kinda offensive to me (as a minority) because then you're saying they're basically tokens. Treat the characters equally, give them their due, and an arc worth telling is what it's all about for me. My biggest complaint about her death, and this season in general, is they didn't do a good job of setting the table up. Preparing the themes, and touching on the elements that would have made it stronger and maybe not have telegraphed it near the end.

But, I'll be damned if the juke at the end where she seemed to be in the clear until she wasn't. That worked, because it happened when we weren't expecting it.

 

[DrCosmic]

It's cool that that's what you wanted from the show, but speaking as one person who didn't read the comics, I didn't specifically expect him to stop killing and would have found it jarring if the show changed its M.O. this thoroughly and quickly. Not that I speak for the GA, but I wouldn't assume that they saw Season 1 as proving Batman wrong and calling for an overhaul. Like...you focus on the sacrifice at the end of the season, but it was an act of sacrifice on Oliver's father's part that put him on the path to being a killer and stressed that the series wouldn't be all sunshine and rainbows. As I saw it, the ending was big on heroism because it was the big finale of the season, but it still had some of the moral ambiguity and darkness of the series. Oliver stopped one of the earthquake devices, but not the other. He showed sacrifice to stop Malcolm, but he also (supposedly) killed him to do so. Tommy died in a heroic and non-violent way, but he also made peace with who Oliver was.

I also wouldn't make that assumption, but I know at the beginning of every episode of season 2, Oliver told us that Tommy's death was a cause for him to become something other than what he was season 1, and that never really happened, not even slowly. Either those words meant what they said or it's hilarious bad writing that they made sure the audience was aware of every episode. That kind of loss of long term objective kills shows' longevity, even if you can't see it at the time because another helping of what worked once still tastes pretty good. I'm not sure that a Robin Hood type is all sunshine and rainbows, or even all that morally black and white, it's just not Batman/Malcolm's brand of grey.

 

[union_jak]

It was a baffling, dumb decision and I think they'll regret it.

I think Arrow will end after season 5 anyway, the flashbacks will wrap up and lead into the start of season 1, and they're already struggling with ideas so the end is approaching.

 

[Slade W]

I also wouldn't make that assumption, but I know at the beginning of every episode of season 2, Oliver told us that Tommy's death was a cause for him to become something other than what he was season 1, and that never really happened, not even slowly. Either those words meant what they said or it's hilarious bad writing that they made sure the audience was aware of every episode. That kind of loss of long term objective kills shows' longevity, even if you can't see it at the time because another helping of what worked once still tastes pretty good. I'm not sure that a Robin Hood type is all sunshine and rainbows, or even all that morally black and white, it's just not Batman/Malcolm's brand of grey.

What do you mean? Oliver is very different now to what he was in the earlier seasons.

 

[SM_experiment]

I didn't ignore your points, I countered them. If Arrow fails because it didn't show Green Arrow from the start, then Daredevil also fails, which it doesn't, meaning 'there from the start' isn't a good judge of whether there is interest in the finished character. If starting as a batclone is bad, then the comics, which we agree did the same, are also bad, and had no interest in Green Arrow.

I suggest that they *did* know their audience, which was why the show was such a runaway success. To me, they did start a great Green Arrow story. Every complaint GA should have about Batman wasn't just 'intelligent' it became real and emotional as well for Green Arrow in a way that wouldn't have happened if he didn't learn those lessons the hard way. And perhaps this me just not being as big a fan as you, but I'm much more interested in a Green Arrow that knows he could have been Batman and chose not to for great reasons than one where an objectively inferior vigilante takes political umbridge with a Batman that doesn't exist in his universe.

Yes you ignored them like you still ignore my points about how they failed from the start to make a Green Arrow show when they did not get his origins nor character developement. LIke Fincher said it is cool to find out about what you wanted from this show but (so you will not misinterepret me this is my opinion not Finchers) it sure as hell ain't Green Arrow (Did Daredevil start the tv show with him being a almost perfect character copy of Iron Man and then when some character developement happened he still did not become MAtt Murdock (i haven't seen the show so I wouldn't know but basing it around you throw a way line about him not being Daredevil from the beginning seems to illustrate that you think I meant it literally as in why no character developement which is false)). The show clearly had no interest in Green Arrow as an end point neither first of all how they made the island, instead of being loneliness and survival that makes Ollie question his own life and existence it is people doing it for him in the roles of teacher and opponents and his dad, secondly the entire first season where Diggle is acting like an Alfred and removes all the insight into Ollie from himself and to Diggle (again it is not meta when they just simply do not show them selves doing better), introduction of Felicity which is obviously Oracle, instead of more original and unique characters that could have been used. (The fact that I have to explain why claiming I am only interested in the end point is for me dumb, ridiculous, silly and fundamentally idiotic. Of course I know character developement must occur why do you think I made a big deal about how they ****ed up the island. IF you are treating your responders as idiots than no wonder you do not bother to respond to some of their own points). And since you acknowledge Batmans no existence please actually answer to my point about WHY we need Oliver to ever be such a complete carbon copy of Batmans personality. They only show him going against what he has always known because his dad told him to rather than you know, Showing us the corruption first hand when he gets back and how his newly found responsibility sets him up against his parents but no, he must be told by his dad and that spurs him into action because **** having a character come to this conclusion himself we must have him follow a revenge plot of his dad.

Like I said multiple times (and you have never responded to) he wasn't the exact cardon copy replicate personality wise which is he mostly in Arrow. When people claim he was started out as a Batclone what they mean is He is a rich playboy who uses gadgets (trickarrows) to fight colorful criminals. Their personalities and ideas where very different from the start if you read those old comics. So for me if you think starting a complex rich diverse history of a charater by being a carbon copy than for me you also are not interested in Green Arrow but simply Batman. The problem with showing his criticism arising from personal experience (as in this is what Batman would do but Naw i won't) rather then the more intelligent and better way of philosophical differences and politics (that arises specifically from different experiences) seems for me to fail since it only enhances the characters connection to Batman rather than disassociate, it could work but again when they from the start seems to feel that it is parental issues rather than personal responsibility that drives the character than they set them selves up for failure and truly showcasing their utterly failure of writing the character. They started writing a bastard child a mix between certain iconic features of Green Arrow with all the philosophical baggage, psychology and politics from Batman this means they never started a good "green arrow" storyline since what makes the charater unique fascinating, interesting, complex and intelligent has been removed for the sake of trying simply to make a show that would be approved by scared bureaucrats that doesn't want anything new or original but only the same **** always. And (I am sorry but really???) **** you for feeling Green Arrow isn't up to your (batman) standards regarding him being a great Superhero for your information Green Arrow is enough of a ****ing adult to recognize and realise how much what Batman does is wrong for a number of reasons that he does not need contrived and ******** ones. He has enough problems of his own dealing with issues regarding politics, responsibility, guilt, regret and you know killing people that he does not need Batman baggage he has his ****ing own. If you do not like it fine but stop pretending this show isn't a giant circle jerk showcasing how WB is afraid of letting their own characters be anything but a shadow of the Batgod. For me showcasing how a character comes up to a different philosophical position without soap opera dramatics means so much more than them pretending to comment on something when really all they have done is confirm him as that character. (again please do not take my aggression as hatred of you or your opinion I simply feel it works better with it than without it)

 

[TheRedWraith]

Yes you ignored them like you still ignore my points about how they failed from the start to make a Green Arrow show when they did not get his origins nor character developement. LIke Fincher said it is cool to find out about what you wanted from this show but (so you will not misinterepret me this is my opinion not Finchers) it sure as hell ain't Green Arrow (Did Daredevil start the tv show with him being a almost perfect character copy of Iron Man and then when some character developement happened he still did not become MAtt Murdock (i haven't seen the show so I wouldn't know but basing it around you throw a way line about him not being Daredevil from the beginning seems to illustrate that you think I meant it literally as in why no character developement which is false)). The show clearly had no interest in Green Arrow as an end point neither first of all how they made the island, instead of being loneliness and survival that makes Ollie question his own life and existence it is people doing it for him in the roles of teacher and opponents and his dad, secondly the entire first season where Diggle is acting like an Alfred and removes all the insight into Ollie from himself and to Diggle (again it is not meta when they just simply do not show them selves doing better), introduction of Felicity which is obviously Oracle, instead of more original and unique characters that could have been used. (The fact that I have to explain why claiming I am only interested in the end point is for me dumb, ridiculous, silly and fundamentally idiotic. Of course I know character developement must occur why do you think I made a big deal about how they ****ed up the island. IF you are treating your responders as idiots than no wonder you do not bother to respond to some of their own points). And since you acknowledge Batmans no existence please actually answer to my point about WHY we need Oliver to ever be such a complete carbon copy of Batmans personality. They only show him going against what he has always known because his dad told him to rather than you know, Showing us the corruption first hand when he gets back and how his newly found responsibility sets him up against his parents but no, he must be told by his dad and that spurs him into action because **** having a character come to this conclusion himself we must have him follow a revenge plot of his dad.

Like I said multiple times (and you have never responded to) he wasn't the exact cardon copy replicate personality wise which is he mostly in Arrow. When people claim he was started out as a Batclone what they mean is He is a rich playboy who uses gadgets (trickarrows) to fight colorful criminals. Their personalities and ideas where very different from the start if you read those old comics. So for me if you think starting a complex rich diverse history of a charater by being a carbon copy than for me you also are not interested in Green Arrow but simply Batman. The problem with showing his criticism arising from personal experience (as in this is what Batman would do but Naw i won't) rather then the more intelligent and better way of philosophical differences and politics (that arises specifically from different experiences) seems for me to fail since it only enhances the characters connection to Batman rather than disassociate, it could work but again when they from the start seems to feel that it is parental issues rather than personal responsibility that drives the character than they set them selves up for failure and truly showcasing their utterly failure of writing the character. They started writing a bastard child a mix between certain iconic features of Green Arrow with all the philosophical baggage, psychology and politics from Batman this means they never started a good "green arrow" storyline since what makes the charater unique fascinating, interesting, complex and intelligent has been removed for the sake of trying simply to make a show that would be approved by scared bureaucrats that doesn't want anything new or original but only the same **** always. And (I am sorry but really???) **** you for feeling Green Arrow isn't up to your (batman) standards regarding him being a great Superhero for your information Green Arrow is enough of a ****ing adult to recognize and realise how much what Batman does is wrong for a number of reasons that he does not need contrived and ******** ones. He has enough problems of his own dealing with issues regarding politics, responsibility, guilt, regret and you know killing people that he does not need Batman baggage he has his ****ing own. If you do not like it fine but stop pretending this show isn't a giant circle jerk showcasing how WB is afraid of letting their own characters be anything but a shadow of the Batgod. For me showcasing how a character comes up to a different philosophical position without soap opera dramatics means so much more than them pretending to comment on something when really all they have done is confirm him as that character. (again please do not take my aggression as hatred of you or your opinion I simply feel it works better with it than without it)

Why are you blaming WB for things that cw writers on a cw show filled with cw clichés/problems wrote and thought up, you can be mad but at least hold the right people responsible, the CW/arrow writers as all that WB does is say which characters you can and cannot use not what storylines and characters they must use.

 

[SM_experiment]

Why are you blaming WB for things that cw writers on a cw show filled with cw clichés/problems wrote and thought up, you can be mad but at least hold the right people responsible, the CW/arrow writers as all that WB does is say which characters you can and cannot use not what storylines and characters they must use.

Can you please refer where specifically I mention that it is WB fault. See when I reread all I complain about is the writers, who obviously works for CW. But since WB are the parent corporation for CW then most likely they have guidelines or whatever. But I lay most blame on the writers like I have said in all my comments. So why defend the beast, when its kids are running wild?

 

[TheRedWraith]

Can you please refer where specifically I mention that it is WB fault. See when I reread all I complain about is the writers, who obviously works for CW. But since WB are the parent corporation for CW then most likely they have guidelines or whatever. But I lay most blame on the writers like I have said in all my comments. So why defend the beast, when its kids are running wild?

If you do not like it fine but stop pretending this show isn't a giant circle jerk showcasing how WB is afraid of letting their own characters be anything but a shadow of the Batgod.

because WB only regulates who (and presumably what storylines as well) they can or cannot use, they don't make them do things beyond telling them no they can't do something.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Eh, I wonder about how much WB has affected the series. Hopefully, with news of getting to see an actual Superman...and not sure a pair of red boots...on Supergirl, that could mean they're loosening up. There have been things that seem very much to be WB's fault. Pretty much everything that's gone down hill with the Suicide Squad since they first appeared on Arrow just seems like it had to be WB's call.

But, it's hard to tell without anyone on the show pointing out exactly what. We know Harley Quinn was supposed to be on the show, until WB pulled the rug on that. And Nightwing was also another character they wanted to have show up (probably why Bluhaven was visited in season one).

I don't see how Black Canary's death is a death nail for the show. I'd be shocked if it was, anyway whatsoever. I think like every other death on tv, people catch feelings. I've seen the claim that there's no place for death in superhero stories, for example. A notion that's just absurd, that definitely comes from a place of pure emotion and no logic.

I've been trying to place when the tide turned for Laurel, but I can't place it. I think it had to be in season 3, where Laurel showed her tenacity.

 

[TheRedWraith]

Eh, I wonder about how much WB has affected the series. Hopefully, with news of getting to see an actual Superman...and not sure a pair of red boots...on Supergirl, that could mean they're loosening up. There have been things that seem very much to be WB's fault. Pretty much everything that's gone down hill with the Suicide Squad since they first appeared on Arrow just seems like it had to be WB's call.

But, it's hard to tell without anyone on the show pointing out exactly what. We know Harley Quinn was supposed to be on the show, until WB pulled the rug on that. And Nightwing was also another character they wanted to have show up (probably why Bluhaven was visited in season one).

I don't see how Black Canary's death is a death nail for the show. I'd be shocked if it was, anyway whatsoever. I think like every other death on tv, people catch feelings. I've seen the claim that there's no place for death in superhero stories, for example. A notion that's just absurd, that definitely comes from a place of pure emotion and no logic.

I've been trying to place when the tide turned for Laurel, but I can't place it. I think it had to be in season 3, where Laurel showed her tenacity.

Not having Nightwing or Harley hasn't hurt the series at all, things that may have hurt is pulling the suicide squad, but I still blame the writers mostly as they coped in an incredibly s***** way, I could have written better work arounds than them, they also don't seem to plan ahead as the villains plan often feels disjointed between the two season halves. On top of all that the fight choreography became awful, they haven't developed anyone's lives outside of heroics in any significant way in two seasons, when they had something great in the works like the bid for mayor they completely wasted it for the sake of cheap drama. Suffice to say the writers are overall incompetent.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I'm done with the show but not because of Laurel.

I'm done because it's a horrible show now.

 

[DrCosmic]

Yes you ignored them like you still ignore my points about how they failed from the start to make a Green Arrow show when they did not get his origins nor character developement. LIke Fincher said it is cool to find out about what you wanted from this show but (so you will not misinterepret me this is my opinion not Finchers) it sure as hell ain't Green Arrow (Did Daredevil start the tv show with him being a almost perfect character copy of Iron Man and then when some character developement happened he still did not become MAtt Murdock (i haven't seen the show so I wouldn't know but basing it around you throw a way line about him not being Daredevil from the beginning seems to illustrate that you think I meant it literally as in why no character developement which is false)). The show clearly had no interest in Green Arrow as an end point neither first of all how they made the island, instead of being loneliness and survival that makes Ollie question his own life and existence it is people doing it for him in the roles of teacher and opponents and his dad, secondly the entire first season where Diggle is acting like an Alfred and removes all the insight into Ollie from himself and to Diggle (again it is not meta when they just simply do not show them selves doing better), introduction of Felicity which is obviously Oracle, instead of more original and unique characters that could have been used. (The fact that I have to explain why claiming I am only interested in the end point is for me dumb, ridiculous, silly and fundamentally idiotic. Of course I know character developement must occur why do you think I made a big deal about how they ****ed up the island. IF you are treating your responders as idiots than no wonder you do not bother to respond to some of their own points). And since you acknowledge Batmans no existence please actually answer to my point about WHY we need Oliver to ever be such a complete carbon copy of Batmans personality. They only show him going against what he has always known because his dad told him to rather than you know, Showing us the corruption first hand when he gets back and how his newly found responsibility sets him up against his parents but no, he must be told by his dad and that spurs him into action because **** having a character come to this conclusion himself we must have him follow a revenge plot of his dad.

Like I said multiple times (and you have never responded to) he wasn't the exact cardon copy replicate personality wise which is he mostly in Arrow. When people claim he was started out as a Batclone what they mean is He is a rich playboy who uses gadgets (trickarrows) to fight colorful criminals. Their personalities and ideas where very different from the start if you read those old comics. So for me if you think starting a complex rich diverse history of a charater by being a carbon copy than for me you also are not interested in Green Arrow but simply Batman. The problem with showing his criticism arising from personal experience (as in this is what Batman would do but Naw i won't) rather then the more intelligent and better way of philosophical differences and politics (that arises specifically from different experiences) seems for me to fail since it only enhances the characters connection to Batman rather than disassociate, it could work but again when they from the start seems to feel that it is parental issues rather than personal responsibility that drives the character than they set them selves up for failure and truly showcasing their utterly failure of writing the character. They started writing a bastard child a mix between certain iconic features of Green Arrow with all the philosophical baggage, psychology and politics from Batman this means they never started a good "green arrow" storyline since what makes the charater unique fascinating, interesting, complex and intelligent has been removed for the sake of trying simply to make a show that would be approved by scared bureaucrats that doesn't want anything new or original but only the same **** always. And (I am sorry but really???) **** you for feeling Green Arrow isn't up to your (batman) standards regarding him being a great Superhero for your information Green Arrow is enough of a ****ing adult to recognize and realise how much what Batman does is wrong for a number of reasons that he does not need contrived and ******** ones. He has enough problems of his own dealing with issues regarding politics, responsibility, guilt, regret and you know killing people that he does not need Batman baggage he has his ****ing own. If you do not like it fine but stop pretending this show isn't a giant circle jerk showcasing how WB is afraid of letting their own characters be anything but a shadow of the Batgod. For me showcasing how a character comes up to a different philosophical position without soap opera dramatics means so much more than them pretending to comment on something when really all they have done is confirm him as that character. (again please do not take my aggression as hatred of you or your opinion I simply feel it works better with it than without it)

First, let me state that I respect your opinion, and want to know more about it. I genuinely enjoy this conversation, which is why I am continuing to engage in it so deeply. I would have responded earlier too, I was just on holiday.

I'm not really countering your opinion, thoughts or feelings. I'm simply countering your points. You made the point that if they had been interested in Green Arrow, he would have been Green Arrow from the beginning. I countered that point with Daredevil not being Daredevil from the beginning, and highlighted their interest in the character. This means that your point is disproven. It doesn't mean that your feelings are invalid. You still feel that they weren't interested in the character, you MAY be right, I'm not a mindreader or a timetraveler. But you can't use 'he wasn't Green Arrow from the start' as logical evidence, because that has been logically contradicted. Pointing out that Daredevil wasn't Iron Man at the start doesn't then prove that one has to be the character they were interested in from the start to prove their interest. It just proves that it wasn't Iron Man they used to bring the audience into Daredevil. It was actually a generic vigilante, with much more in common than Batman than Iron Man, honestly, because they know that's something the audience can connect to instantly. In many ways, Daredevil succeeded at precisely what Green Arrow attempted to do.

Looking at the pilot of Arrow, the island was definitely portrayed as being one of loneliness and survival, as you can see from how he was recovered and how he was living when he was rescued. The very fact that what they've done now is no longer able to keep continuity with what the island was displayed to have done to Ollie in the pilot shows you that their plans changed. Certainly later they did not make the island about this loneliness and survival, but if you say they were NEVER interested, then how do you explain the lonely survivalist in the pilot?

I honestly didn't get that you were talking about personality when you were saying he wasn't Green Arrow from the start. I guessed you were taling about the feeling you get from the character or something. I don't think you're an idiot, I just don't know what you're thinking, so I don't assume you're a genius and you're automatically right. I just, agian, counter your explicit points. That's all I can do. I'm just a guy on the internet. To counter that point, I would suggest that Ollie *was* different in personality than Bruce. He was darker, imho, and certainly more counter-culture. It was clear this was a person who wasn't going to be running his father's company (even though they reneged on that later). He was brooding, and I think that surface similarity was on purpose. Same with Diggle as Alfred and Felicity as Oracle, but I think those are really superficial comparisons. I remember feeling the way you feel, and then I saw Oliver training Diggle to fight, I saw their relationship develop and I realized that he definitely was not Alfred. I watched Felicity and her utter failure to be Barbara Gordon and demand to be someone entirely different and I realized this is a different character, with little more than a surface similarity, if that. Now, eventually they doubled down on those trite, Bat-clone roles, but in the beginning, it really was little more than a hook. Diggle's servitude was a farce and Felicity's vigilanteism was almost bafoonish. She was "Oracle"" because she was a female hacker, nothing more. He was "Alfred" only to people who wanted Ollie to be "Batman".

A person who is contantly telling people that they've failed the city naturally leads to the inevitiable conclusion that you, Oliver Queen have failed this city. That leads into the personal responsibility that you've talked about. It may sound like I'm just wishful thinking, but that kind of reversal is kind of a narrative inevitability, at least if the writing is good and the characters are growing.

I also think you're projecting some issues onto the nature of adapting comics to screen. Thought bubbles and narration boxes don't play the same on screen as they do in comics, and so all the loner characters get supporting casts to be their sounding board, from Batman to Punisher. The only exception is Deadpool because not taking him too seriously is part of the fun, so the audience is allowed to be his sounding board character. Green Arrow cannot be the exception to this, no matter how interested a talented screenwriter is in the character.

I also take umbridge with the idea that philosophy is better than personal experience. Different experiences lead to different philosophies and politics. You seem to say the same. I'm not sure why Arrow's different experiences are so unable to lead to differing politics.

And I think you have the mix backwards. Arrow's Ollie didn't see his parents get murdered, quite the opposite back then. One was quite alive and happily remarried, while another had killed himself. And both were criminals, not good people who saved the city. He was, initially, on an island where he'd been isolated for a long time. There were no colorful criminals or trick Arrows. The 'bastard mix' actually was actually to have iconic Batman shenanigans with none of Batman's psychological or political leanings, they were actually much more in line with the Green Arrow you describe than any Batman I've ever read.

Again, just countering your points. As for the curse word-filled tirade (I hand't read the whole thing when I started), I think you're projecting on to me. I think this issue is really close to your heart and you're looking for enemies when there's actually more of a systemic problem. I think you're a cool guy, I feel where you're coming from, if that's not good enough. Oh, well. You're just a guy on the internet too.

Trying to decipher your points in there though. I'm certainly not pretending that the show didn't collapse into Bat-worship. That's not my point. Or course, I think it became more self-worship than anything, but that's not my point either. My point is that it didn't start out as a circle jerk. I've also restated that multiple times, and then backed up why I believe that, and respond to all of your 'they never cared' points with specific examples of them caring about something other than Batman very clearly. There's nothing contrived about learning the hard way. Honestly, when we talk about characters like Superman and, apparently, Green Arrow, who just 'know better' without having to learn like the rest of us, that's when we have to come up with contrived reasons for them to just know what no one can teach them and be completely dedicated to something that they've never truly had tested.

And honestly... did S1 have that much soap opera dramatics? Certainly Ollie was dealing with a lot of ladies, but the 'oh noes secrets' stuff didn't even hit until S2. And, did you just say that Green Arrow is supposed to have baggage killing people? If so, now I'm really confused at the problem.

But honestly, this whole tirade was illuminating. If I'm understanding you correctly, Green Arrow is another one of the characters in the Superman/Captain America type mold that just does the right thing because it's the right thing, separate from any personal experience or bias that propels them like Batman's obessessive vengeance, Iron Man or Spider-Man's guilt-ridden showboating or any kind of Warrior culture or law enforcement occupation (Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, maybe Flash). For Green Arrow, like Superman, adulting is easy. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[BlueLanternKal]

My opinion is that Green Arrow is at it's best when:

The titular character is "Robin Hooding" and I don't mean this in a superficial sense. I mean really borrowing from the myth and putting it in a modern context and setting. A fallen noble fights the powers that be (Sheriff of Nottingham, Prince John characters they don't have on the show if you dont count Captain Lance) and eventually wins with the signing of the Magna Carta or the return of King Richard. I like what the show has added to Green Arrow mythos (John Diggle is John Little), but I also hate what it's taken away (but you killed off Maid Marian aka Black Canary). I also hate that it's lost complete focus of what it wanted to be and latched on to the wrong, and I say this without remorse or moderation, portion of the fanbase. It could have been a great show.

DC fans in general agree with this sentiment otherwise Green Arrow Rebirth wouldn't be making historic numbers.

 

[DrCosmic]

^That sound awesome.

It also sounds like something we've seen before twisted into something new, which is kinda how stories work in general.

So...
Diggle -> Little John
Felicity -> Alan-a-Dale
Quentin Lance -> Friar Tuck
Laurel -> Maid Marian
Roy -> Much The Miller's Son
Thea -> Will Scarlet

Something like that? Because that sounds like a terrible amount of fun. Who could have been King Richard though?

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Not having Nightwing or Harley hasn't hurt the series at all, things that may have hurt is pulling the suicide squad, but I still blame the writers mostly as they coped in an incredibly s***** way, I could have written better work arounds than them, they also don't seem to plan ahead as the villains plan often feels disjointed between the two season halves. On top of all that the fight choreography became awful, they haven't developed anyone's lives outside of heroics in any significant way in two seasons, when they had something great in the works like the bid for mayor they completely wasted it for the sake of cheap drama. Suffice to say the writers are overall incompetent.

You're right. In the end, it's up to the storyteller to execute it well. I do think that WB's meddling has felt clear, though, which just bothers me. I think about something like Superman only being a pair of boots and being an instant message text screen in Supergirl. It's not a big deal, but something that feels contrived. I believe the story I'd heard was that with Harley they had things written and planned because WB had told them yes.

Which makes sense, because they were allowed to have the Suicide Squad. But, apparently when the movie got more traction that's when Harley became off limits. I don't think the producer (who spoke about it on a podcast, somewhere) said how much was written, or what.

The Suicide Squad stuff...I dunno, man. In the end, yeah the writers are the ones that messed up on the executions of how those ended up. But, they all felt so forced. Waller's death felt so out of place, too. Like a GoT or Walking Dead moment, a sort of wtf out of nowhere death. Those decisions probably weren't up to the writers, but absolutely it's on them to make it work. And those deaths just came off as awkward.

I'm starting to wonder if the writers are being spread thin. Arrow, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Supergirl. I'm wondering if they don't have enough people, or if it's deadlines, or what. But, it's starting to seem like the heavier workloads are having a negative impact.

Granted, the change in direction is apparent. The first two seasons of Arrow were more like Batman Begins, with the last few becoming less self serious. But, the second season of Flash had some...writing issues, in spots, as well.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

My opinion is that Green Arrow is at it's best when:

The titular character is "Robin Hooding" and I don't mean this in a superficial sense. I mean really borrowing from the myth and putting it in a modern context and setting. A fallen noble fights the powers that be (Sheriff of Nottingham, Prince John characters they don't have on the show if you dont count Captain Lance) and eventually wins with the signing of the Magna Carta or the return of King Richard. I like what the show has added to Green Arrow mythos (John Diggle is John Little), but I also hate what it's taken away (but you killed off Maid Marian aka Black Canary). I also hate that it's lost complete focus of what it wanted to be and latched on to the wrong, and I say this without remorse or moderation, portion of the fanbase. It could have been a great show.

DC fans in general agree with this sentiment otherwise Green Arrow Rebirth wouldn't be making historic numbers.

Well, I think it's been a great show. Season One and Two are amazing. And there's some damn good moments in Season Three (Duel with Ra's and the Police Chase sequence stand out to me). I think the benefit of it being a series is that there's still a chance to change focus in the next season. They're in a position to make adjustments, and fine tune stuff.

Personally, I like it when Ollie is political. In the comics, the stories I've read of him being unapologetic about his stances was always a plus in a place where so many other characters are down the middle neutral on things of that nature. I think it's been a benefit to Iron Man, on the other side, as well. Just enough to make him more identifiable even if they don't straight out say it.

I do think they need to do better next season with the overarching narrative. I think this past season, the small scale plots were mostly good. Having a few episodes, where a villain escaped and needs to be stopped, seems like a solid footing for them. The weakspot this past season was on the long term, season narrative. Well, that, and having such an OP villain. They struggled so much with making that back and forth work.

I was a bigger fan of the Batman Begins-esque tone they had originally. But, I'm not opposed to the more absurd, more colorful approach. I mean, SO MANY people complain about "grimdark" and "serious" and complain about gritty and dark comic book adaptations. And clearly, people like the more fun and less serious approach because it's been successful. If I had my way, it'd get back to the tone of the first two seasons, but I'm not holding my breath. I can't tell if the change of tone is the reason they've gotten looser with the writing.

And yeah, they seem so lost with the flashbacks. They're kinda negating the stuff they set up in the first season. The first season definitely set up Ollie has having been a survivalist. That's been retconned with the last two seasons.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

^That sound awesome.

It also sounds like something we've seen before twisted into something new, which is kinda how stories work in general.

So...
Diggle -> Little John
Felicity -> Alan-a-Dale
Quentin Lance -> Friar Tuck
Laurel -> Maid Marian
Roy -> Much The Miller's Son
Thea -> Will Scarlet

Something like that? Because that sounds like a terrible amount of fun. Who could have been King Richard though?

Robert Queen was King Richard IMO. Oliver returns from "the crusades" aka the island only to find that the true "King" was usurped. This as well as the oppressive conditions of Star City drives him to vigilantsm.

It was all there and they didn't see it. This is the show Arrow could've been. Instead of Days of Our Lives with Saturday morning Power Ranger fights.

They could've blended modern day social commentary, with classical mythology of the past, into a gritty crime drama. Just imagine...

We ended up with "OLIBUURRRR, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME HOW MANY PUBIC HAIRS YOU HAVE??!!! YOU LIED TO ME!!!"

 

[DrCosmic]

Robert Queen was King Richard IMO. Oliver returns from "the crusades" aka the island only to find that the true "King" was usurped. This as well as the oppressive conditions of Star City drives him to vigilantsm.

It was all there and they didn't see it. This is the show Arrow could've been. Instead of Days of Our Lives with Saturday morning Power Ranger fights.

They could've blended modern day social commentary, with classical mythology of the past, into a gritty crime drama. Just imagine...

We ended up with "OLIBUURRRR, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME HOW MANY PUBIC HAIRS YOU HAVE??!!! YOU LIED TO ME!!!"

Yeah, it got really really bad. And the fights were soooo good S1! So sad. And I think they really were on the right track. After all, Diggle definitely is Little John. And Oliver was definitely going after the rich, as opposed to a bunch of poor criminals.

And honestly, a heist show could have been really really awesome. But that might just be because I miss Leverage. Alas.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think the fight scenes have just been affected by the direction of the series. Aside from a less realistic, more action-movie (less grimdark for people) it's the size of the team as well.

I think it's easier, and much more focused to plan things out when it's just Ollie or 1 on X. But, usually they have fight scenes where it's like four heroes. Planning, choreographing, and shooting a scene like that is complicated and takes some real skill. It's one of the (many) praises of Civil War. It's really easy for a fight scene with that many people to stay interesting and easy to follow. Might just be a matter of biting off more than they could chew, but I think that's just the case in general.

I think they even took moves away from Ollie. It wasn't until one of the final episodes of the season where he did an acrobatic attack that I was reminded of how agile he was previously. I'll probably re-watch stuff, but I want to say he was more stationary and less acrobatic in the first half of last season.

 

[DrCosmic]

^This is a great point. It takes time to do a fight scene, and even in S1 they could really only manage one good one a week (or I think their shooting schedule was/is 8 days per episode, actually). And honestly... this could have been avoided if they had been content to make the other non-trained characters not so professional. Thea's training to be comparable with Oliver was a little silly, but Roy's was absolutely ridiculous. A more natural progression, that would have allowed the stunt teams what they needed to work would have been to keep these characters as combat utilities, like Diggle and Felicity. Roy on Mirakuru would have been a bruiser, with little need for choreography time, just time that day to set up the wire or breakaways. And Thea as just an archer would have been a great sniper, and Diggle could have graduated from sniper to on the ground backup, since he'd been training with Oliver from Season 1, and was already a top-notch soldier going in.

But no...