Civil War Whose side are you on?! (Mandatory "Civil War" thread)

[Araa]

Well, back in 2006 when the CW comic began (God... Can't believe it was 10 years ago...), I was on Iron Man's side ideologically, on the other hand I absolutely loved Cap (still do), so I was torn but Iron Man took things too far and became more and more obnoxious as the comic went on, so at the end of issue #2 (I think) I wound up on Cap's side with no regrets. The movie however looks pretty well balanced but Cap is my man crush and I'm always going to be on his side, Till the end of the line...

 

[Dr doomsday]

It amazes me how many people completely miss everything regarding Tony's character in the comic, Tony is the most human character in the comic and is not the villain true he build a prison in the negative Zone and true he used nanite controlled villains but that doesn't make him the villain for one very clear reason, Tony is not the aggressor.

Tony tries to reason with everyone he never was looking for a fight, he didn't want the war and tried to negotiate every chance he got. Lures Steve's team out doesn't attack them all he does is ask Steve to hear him out for a bit and what does Steve do he attacks he starts the fight and the war Tony was trying to end peacefully. A man dies and Steve brushes it off declaring it a necessary sacrifice for freedom, when others don't want to fight this war and decide to leave Steve is cold saying if their freedom means so little to them let them go, that's cold. When Daredevil is being locked up Tony is trying to reason with him every step of the way, all but saying he doesn't want to have to imprison him, he's ignored again. Tony pays for the fallen heroes funeral builds the grave pays his respects everything, how is Steve more sympathetic in this particular situation?

Spidey is against the prison in the negative zone and Tony completely rationalizes it, they have nowhere else to put them where they won't escape instantly. Tony tries to reason with Peter telling him he doesn't like this but going back to the way things were before is not possible, and he's completely right, this is going to happen one way or another all the anti registration is doing is making things worse. He flat out says that if they don't come to terms with this change masked heroes might be just be outlawed altogether and once again he's not wrong.

In the final battle despite having them outnumbered at first Tony still gives them a chance to stand down Steve starts the fight again, Steve is the one who accidentally it wasn't deliberate takes the fight to a public city, Tony's the one ordering citizens evacuated, Steve is the aggressor, he starts every fight. What makes this even worse is Steve doesn't have a plan to win, the anti registration are just busting out captured heroes fighting bad guys and sitting around waiting for people to change their mind, which is never going to happen. They aren't accomplishing anything all they are doing is dragging the war out and making things worse.

Finally what the heck is Steve fighting for? The right thing, the will of the people what does that even mean where is his actual motivation, where is his proof that registration isn't necessary? Steve said they were winning everything except the argument the problem here is Steve didn't have an argument he had nothing nothing to convince anyone that registration wasn't necessary, nothing but his morals and you can't start a war over just your morals and only your morals. Tony has Stanford very clear evidence of what happens when heroes are unsupervised, he has motivation he was blamed for the Death of woman's son, he looks at the picture of that dead kid every day and that's why Tony is doing this in the memory of all those dead people, all those dead children. He's doing this to make sure nothing like that ever happens again. That's real motivation he does care about people in fact he cares about both sides and tries to reason with everyone he comes across, he never starts a fight.

Now tell me what makes Steve right what proves this isn't necessary how did the anti registration help at all? Tony was the only one actually trying to make things better and unlike Steve doubted every choice he made, every time he made a choice he questioned it. Steve never did he was convinced he was completely right aND never even considered the possibility that he wasn't. Also a lot of people forget this Tony worked with villains well guess what Steve recruited villains as well, he also worked with the punisher and beat him into ground after killing some villains that Steve was recruiting, so what makes Tony working with the villains worse.

How is someone who regretted every choice they made, who tried to resolve things peacefully and reason with people every chance he got and had a real reason for supporting his side less sympathetic than someone who was uncompromising who coldly brushed off a death and people's reactions to it and started every single fight even when the opposition was offering a more peaceful solution? With all this clear as day how is Captain America more sympathetic and human than Iron Man? (This is just the main series not the tie ins Front lines went way too far in depicting registration as the villains)

 

[Iron_Stark]

It amazes me how many people completely miss everything regarding Tony's character in the comic, Tony is the most human character in the comic and is not the villain true he build a prison in the negative Zone and true he used nanite controlled villains but that doesn't make him the villain for one very clear reason, Tony is not the aggressor.

Tony tries to reason with everyone he never was looking for a fight, he didn't want the war and tried to negotiate every chance he got. Lures Steve's team out doesn't attack them all he does is ask Steve to hear him out for a bit and what does Steve do he attacks he starts the fight and the war Tony was trying to end peacefully. A man dies and Steve brushes it off declaring it a necessary sacrifice for freedom, when others don't want to fight this war and decide to leave Steve is cold saying if their freedom means so little to them let them go, that's cold. When Daredevil is being locked up Tony is trying to reason with him every step of the way, all but saying he doesn't want to have to imprison him, he's ignored again. Tony pays for the fallen heroes funeral builds the grave pays his respects everything, how is Steve more sympathetic in this particular situation?

Spidey is against the prison in the negative zone and Tony completely rationalizes it, they have nowhere else to put them where they won't escape instantly. Tony tries to reason with Peter telling him he doesn't like this but going back to the way things were before is not possible, and he's completely right, this is going to happen one way or another all the anti registration is doing is making things worse. He flat out says that if they don't come to terms with this change masked heroes might be just be outlawed altogether and once again he's not wrong.

In the final battle despite having them outnumbered at first Tony still gives them a chance to stand down Steve starts the fight again, Steve is the one who accidentally it wasn't deliberate takes the fight to a public city, Tony's the one ordering citizens evacuated, Steve is the aggressor, he starts every fight. What makes this even worse is Steve doesn't have a plan to win, the anti registration are just busting out captured heroes fighting bad guys and sitting around waiting for people to change their mind, which is never going to happen. They aren't accomplishing anything all they are doing is dragging the war out and making things worse.

Finally what the heck is Steve fighting for? The right thing, the will of the people what does that even mean where is his actual motivation, where is his proof that registration isn't necessary? Steve said they were winning everything except the argument the problem here is Steve didn't have an argument he had nothing nothing to convince anyone that registration wasn't necessary, nothing but his morals and you can't start a war over just your morals and only your morals. Tony has Stanford very clear evidence of what happens when heroes are unsupervised, he has motivation he was blamed for the Death of woman's son, he looks at the picture of that dead kid every day and that's why Tony is doing this in the memory of all those dead people, all those dead children. He's doing this to make sure nothing like that ever happens again. That's real motivation he does care about people in fact he cares about both sides and tries to reason with everyone he comes across, he never starts a fight.

Now tell me what makes Steve right what proves this isn't necessary how did the anti registration help at all? Tony was the only one actually trying to make things better and unlike Steve doubted every choice he made, every time he made a choice he questioned it. Steve never did he was convinced he was completely right aND never even considered the possibility that he wasn't. Also a lot of people forget this Tony worked with villains well guess what Steve recruited villains as well, he also worked with the punisher and beat him into ground after killing some villains that Steve was recruiting, so what makes Tony working with the villains worse.

How is someone who regretted every choice they made, who tried to resolve things peacefully and reason with people every chance he got and had a real reason for supporting his side less sympathetic than someone who was uncompromising who coldly brushed off a death and people's reactions to it and started every single fight even when the opposition was offering a more peaceful solution? With all this clear as day how is Captain America more sympathetic and human than Iron Man? (This is just the main series not the tie ins Front lines went way too far in depicting registration as the villains)

If I were to ever meet you in real life, I'd buy you a beer. Excellent post.

I'll tell you how Cap was made more sympathetic. The writers. Most writers (except for Brubaker, ironically enough) made Tony into the villain. There was no grey area, Cap was the hero, and Tony was the villain. Front Line was the worst offender.

 

[TalismanRing]

Tony did question every choice he made but mostly to himself, and he felt in the end the ends justified the means (It was worth it) and then he went out and did horrible things he didn't want to do to his friends. Building the negative zone, cloning Thor (who killed someone), siding with a gov't to let out Cape Killers. It's all bad, bad, bad.

And by the time Tony got around to trying to explain anything to Steve they were already at war and lines were drawn. The only other out come at that point would have been Steve's capitulation and rubber stamping to everything Tony and the gov't had done.

But that's Tony's M.O.. He tries to fix things on his own and he keeps the secrets to himself so that he's the only one doing the dirty work but that means he's making decisions for everyone else and taking away their freedom of choice. They had him making these same mistakes once again in the last event series when he agrees to wipe Steve's mind.

The only writer who believed that Registration was right was Miller, the other writers didn't because unlike Miller they aren't fascist leaning. This was his spin on the Patriot Act and the writers weren't buying into it. From the moment Maria Hill tries to wrongfully arrest Steve and orders her men to raise weapons against him to tranq him when he won't agree to arrest his friends and enforce (not even abide by but enforce) a potential not actual law is the moment when Registration went off the rails and that's in Civil War #1.

There's a reason after this event that Tony wipes his mind. It's not just a last heroic act to save the list but it's the writers get out of jail free card by making Tony not remember what he did and hence not be that person with that baggage. The problem is he also forgot a lot of the lessons he learned and the pain he felt and that in the end "It wasn't worth it."


Thankfully everything the Russos, Macus & McFeely, Evans and RDJ have said makes it look like the film will not be repeating the comics mistakes.

 

[Dr doomsday]

As opposed to what, what do you do with the captured rebels let them go, all Tony did was fight the war. Give me a real good reason registration wasn't necessary, tell me with a straight face you would okay with people who could level entire cities running around unsupervised. This is my point no one has an actual defense why anti registration should've won, except for freedom, but there has to be a balance could you imagine if someone actually started a War over the patriot act or if someone started a war every time they didn't agree with a law? That's the problem Steve never should've started the war in the first place, there was no way for anti registration to win, so if there is no way to win don't fight the war. There are you battles you choose to fight and battles you don't, if Tony had sided with Steve all you would've ended up with was all superheroes vs the government that's far worse than what actually happened. The heroes just should've accepted the change because it was going to happen one way or another, the war was pointless.

Fascism are you serious grow up, the world isn't black and White the registration act was necessary and there is nothing to support that's not. What do you do with heroes who refuse what do you do if a cop refuses to hunt a criminal because they used to be friends and he aids him you arrest him. If you break the law you're punished, that's how it works because if you don't enforce a law it won't work. If the government said the registration act is voluntary than what's the point of the act at all, no ones volunteered yet why would that change? So what do you do, what you always do punish those who violate it, arrest them like anyone else who breaks the law. The seven issue series was very clear about this Thor killed a Goliath unfortunate but he did keep fighting and like a robber who refuses to surrender was gunned down.

No one accuses a cop who kills in the line of duty of being a murder, no one accuses a cop enforcing the law of being a fascist. That's all what separates this. The patriot act and registration act have nothing to do with each other, the registration act is about supervising heroes to ensure their actions don't get civilians hurt. The patriot act was about weeding out terrorist and potential inside threats of the nation. These acts have almost nothing in common.

The funny thing is a lot of you are acting just like Steve saying it's wrong but having no defense as to why you're right except it's the right thing to do. Except what is the right thing for example let's say you're home is going through a depression, countless are starving and the whole place is about to collapse. You are approached by another nation who agree to give your home the support and resources it needs to save everyone in exchange you have to help them put down a rebellion they're facing. You then discover the rebels are innocent fighting for their freedom, on the one hand you could take them down leading to them being oppressed but the countless people in your home aren't starving to death, or you can help the rebels give them freedom, and betray your home in the process, so you're doing the morally right thing fighting for freedom and all that but you're also betraying everyone you claim to love. So tell me how can someone who betrays everyone they claim to care about possibly be doing the right thing, but how could staying by your home and friends and family at the expense of innocent people being oppressed be the right thing either?

My point here being it's easy to judge someone when we aren't the ones facing the hard choices most people talk about freedom and morality and all that but very few would sacrifice their loved ones for it, anything who did would be judged as monsters, completely inhuman monsters, yet they're sacrificing everything for the freedom and happiness of an entire nation. My question here is this if you knew someone who wrecked the lives of everyone they knew and loved simply because they couldn't let go of their morals would you look at them as a hero or would you see them as selfish? Could you ever rally behind someone who would sacrifice the needs of everyone they claim to love for the sake of what they morally believe to be right?

 

[TalismanRing]

Obviously the change didn't have to happen one way or another because it didn't last.

Registration was about compelling those with powers to work for the gov't. It was about far more than supervision or training, it was about conscription. Even those who chose just to quit were arrested for non compliance. They were using this to as an opportunity to weaponize those with powers (even those who didn't want to use them for superhero-ing) for gov't use. They never tried to implement a voluntary program for training and regulation, and they never tried to even implement a mandatory program for training etc where people didn't have to reveal their identities.

Tony and Co were letting loose career villains and criminals to hunt down those who were his friends and had saved the world and lives countless times over. How is that not wrong? I guess letting those criminals loose was fine since they now worked for the gov't? That made them on the side of right?

How is cloning someone without their permission to use their DNA as a weapon to kill people who won't abide by the law supposedly the right thing? And no, murdering someone because they won't comply with a law isn't justice. Cops just can't and shouldn't be allowed to gun down shop lifters to stop them from leaving with a pack of gum. Excessive force especially excessive deadly force is a crime.

The Pro-Reg side supposedly wants incidents like Hartford not to happen again, where untrained kids make a mess and further a tragedy. But the response to hunt down, arrest and imprison in the Negative Zone people who've done nothing but try and help others and even kill them if they don't comply is not a reasoned measured response to the issue at hand.

As for the Patriot Act parallels Mark Millar himself brought them up in discussing his plan for the Civil War. As for the rights and wrongs of it I'm not getting into that any further in a comics forum.

Refusing to enforce a non law or even a law is not a crime. It could be grounds to be fired, if it's a law and it's your job to enforce the law. But it wasn't even Steve's job. And it wasn't even a law yet, just a law under discussion. Maria Hill's actions against Steve were the ones that were criminal. False arrest, attempted kidnapping, attempt to drug and assault and battery. All of which puts the pro Reg side is a decidedly poor light from the very start.

 

[Dr doomsday]

They signed a contract and you can't let them just walk away. Then what is the response if you don't imprison them what do you do? Thor was dead kind of hard to have his consent. Maria attempted to remove what was very clearly becoming a threat to the act, it wasn't legal yet but it was going to be letting cap go especially when you knew he was going to rebel is stupid. Refusing to enforce a law is a crime if it's your job to do so, if a cop refused to do his job and just let someone get away he would be arrested.

Was using the villains wrong, in my opinion not entirely. They aren't on the side of good they're being used to do some good. They aren't free they're injected and controlled with nanotechnology which I support, those men and women forfeited their rights and civil liberties the moment they decided to be murderers. The whole injecting nano bots is a good idea, capture the bad guy then inject them and they're no longer a threat. That's a permanent solution, no more bad guys breaking out to cause more pain, it's a lot like the suicide squad which few people oppose. The whole thing with using the villains is an effective way of getting rid of super villain threats, so no I don't think it's completely wrong.

Don't the government conscript US citizens every time they initiate the draft, don't people have to pay taxes and go to jail if they don't, wouldn't that technically be a violation of civil liberties, yet no one starts a revolution over the draft. All that's going on is superheroes are just being treated like actual American citizens it's no more a violation than the draft.

Then Mark doesn't know what the patriot act is because they have nothing in common. You have no defense just like Steve you're defense is it's wrong why, why shouldn't people with abilities be conscripted like soldiers and police men to serve the people? You Steve and anti registration in general have no defense, the morally right thing is not a justifiable defense when someone's morals usually extend as far as the people they care about then they throw them out the window.

 

[TalismanRing]

It wasn't Steve's job. Maria told him what she wanted him to do and he said no. Maria committed a crime and saying she had the right to remove a potential threat to the enforcement of a potential future law is mind boggling. Maybe she should have just shot him in the head while he was sleeping so he wouldn't have been any trouble at all. That would be her right I gather since she works for the gov't and they can arrest, imprison or kill any one they want if it gets in the way of their objectives even when it breaks their own laws.

So, basically morals mean nothing - and supposedly Steve Rogers who's sacrificed his life for others countless times and given his life to protect others just cares about those he's close to. No one should oppose or resist or question a law because all laws are good? People should round up others and arrest, imprison or kill them for disobeying laws they don't even agree with as morally sound because it's the law ? Right. That defense held up great at the Nuremberg Trials.

Are cops conscripted? No. Even soldiers are usually only conscripted during a time of war and when not at war for a limited period. Not for life against one's will unless its the local Warlord forcing people at gunpoint to join and kill. But people with powers should be and if they don't want to be they should be hunted down and locked in the Negative Zone or killed while trying to resist arrest? That is slavery and yeah that big ugly F word Fascism.

Registration had some some good ideas but it was buried under a ton of crazy fascist bull****. There's a reason they had to brain delete Tony. There's a reason he was an unpopular character until the movie saved him. There's a reason they aren't following these extreme actions in the Civil War story.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Feel like I have to see the first half of the movie before I decide lol.

In general I always liked the anti-registration mentality of Cap. People can do good things for other people and make the right decisions without being regulated. But then again, the comic series demonized Tony pretty conclusively. I doubt the movie will make the same mistake.

We shall see!

 

[Dr doomsday]

People can be inherently selfish, something is right or wrong until it affects us. You say it's wrong and fascist you wouldn't think that if you knew someone from Stanford. You say anti registration is right then Steve's unwillingness to compromise gets someone you care about hurt you wouldn't support him anymore. Morals are only as real as our life let's them be.

Tony became hated because fans are thick headed they would rather rally behind someone who coldly dismissed the death of another and ignored everyone's perspective but his own because fans can't accept the hard truth, They would rather side with someone who actively sought the conflict than someone who didn't want it who actively tried to avoid it because of ridiculous political agendas. So I'll make this simple what's more important morals or lives?

Also I don't side with Pro Registration I side with Tony, he doesn't agree with Pro registration but he and Reed are doing it because it's preferable to a war with the government and they aren't wrong, the registration act was eventually repealed so the best thing to do is ride it out and wait. Tony was right because Steve's actions would've only caused a war with the government and superheroes and there's no going back from that.

I stand by Tony Stark because he was the only one thinking rationally sometimes we have to do something nasty to save innocent lives. Anyone remember Reeds speech to Peter about the law if it's wrong then people will eventually have it changed, and that's what happened if Steve truly had faith in people he should've stood down and waited until the will of the people got the registration act repealed just like what happened eventually. Tony was right, going against the government was futile stand by the people.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Capt America aka Anyone who's not Tony Stark.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

Guys, I think we are getting some new footage today...

EDIT - Opps wrong thread.

 

[Kane52630]

Cap's side, fo sure.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Team Cap. Don't let the Government tell you what to do after you save the world so many times lol.

 

[kedrell]

Team Iron Man. And not just because he's my favorite comic book character after the Hulk. His position actually makes sense. Accountability is a good thing. Perhaps Cap would be ok if there were some 3rd party other than the government(which after TWS I can understand him not trusting) who could fill that role?

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I am leaning towards Team Cap on the account that Steve's position makes sense to me. Superheroes need to exist outside of government control. Doesn't help that Thunderbolt Ross is Secretary of State in this universe.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Captain America...going by the comics. Also he IS my favourite superhero so there may be an element of bias.

 

[JB33]

It's weird. Even though, ideologically, I support Captain America and his cause, I just seem to be naturally siding with Iron Man. That's ultimately how you have to choose: what your gut is telling you. So Team Iron Man it is.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

If you support Cap cause why you siding with Iron man lol?

 

[JB33]

If you support Cap cause why you siding with Iron man lol?

That's exactly why I said it's weird. If I ask myself "Do I think superheroes should be registered?", my answer would be no, yet I'm naturally leaning towards Iron Man emotionally.

This was the goal of the movie, as stated by the writers: that it be very difficult to choose a side. You're pulling for both of them.

 

[Mr.T]

Iron Man all the way.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

That's exactly why I said it's weird. If I ask myself "Do I think superheroes should be registered?", my answer would be no, yet I'm naturally leaning towards Iron Man emotionally.

This was the goal of the movie, as stated by the writers: that it be very difficult to choose a side. You're pulling for both of them.

You mean you have emotional liking of Iron man so you side with him even thought you agree with Cap more. I understand now. It just sound confusing there at first lol.

 

[jonathancrane]

It is funny: in terms of the actual comic, I support (still do) Iron Man. Cap was a giant **** in the comic. Now, in terms of the film, I support Cap.

 

[Ironfan72]

It amazes me how many people completely miss everything regarding Tony's character in the comic, Tony is the most human character in the comic and is not the villain true he build a prison in the negative Zone and true he used nanite controlled villains but that doesn't make him the villain for one very clear reason, Tony is not the aggressor.

Tony tries to reason with everyone he never was looking for a fight, he didn't want the war and tried to negotiate every chance he got. Lures Steve's team out doesn't attack them all he does is ask Steve to hear him out for a bit and what does Steve do he attacks he starts the fight and the war Tony was trying to end peacefully. A man dies and Steve brushes it off declaring it a necessary sacrifice for freedom, when others don't want to fight this war and decide to leave Steve is cold saying if their freedom means so little to them let them go, that's cold. When Daredevil is being locked up Tony is trying to reason with him every step of the way, all but saying he doesn't want to have to imprison him, he's ignored again. Tony pays for the fallen heroes funeral builds the grave pays his respects everything, how is Steve more sympathetic in this particular situation?

Spidey is against the prison in the negative zone and Tony completely rationalizes it, they have nowhere else to put them where they won't escape instantly. Tony tries to reason with Peter telling him he doesn't like this but going back to the way things were before is not possible, and he's completely right, this is going to happen one way or another all the anti registration is doing is making things worse. He flat out says that if they don't come to terms with this change masked heroes might be just be outlawed altogether and once again he's not wrong.

In the final battle despite having them outnumbered at first Tony still gives them a chance to stand down Steve starts the fight again, Steve is the one who accidentally it wasn't deliberate takes the fight to a public city, Tony's the one ordering citizens evacuated, Steve is the aggressor, he starts every fight. What makes this even worse is Steve doesn't have a plan to win, the anti registration are just busting out captured heroes fighting bad guys and sitting around waiting for people to change their mind, which is never going to happen. They aren't accomplishing anything all they are doing is dragging the war out and making things worse.

Finally what the heck is Steve fighting for? The right thing, the will of the people what does that even mean where is his actual motivation, where is his proof that registration isn't necessary? Steve said they were winning everything except the argument the problem here is Steve didn't have an argument he had nothing nothing to convince anyone that registration wasn't necessary, nothing but his morals and you can't start a war over just your morals and only your morals. Tony has Stanford very clear evidence of what happens when heroes are unsupervised, he has motivation he was blamed for the Death of woman's son, he looks at the picture of that dead kid every day and that's why Tony is doing this in the memory of all those dead people, all those dead children. He's doing this to make sure nothing like that ever happens again. That's real motivation he does care about people in fact he cares about both sides and tries to reason with everyone he comes across, he never starts a fight.

Now tell me what makes Steve right what proves this isn't necessary how did the anti registration help at all? Tony was the only one actually trying to make things better and unlike Steve doubted every choice he made, every time he made a choice he questioned it. Steve never did he was convinced he was completely right aND never even considered the possibility that he wasn't. Also a lot of people forget this Tony worked with villains well guess what Steve recruited villains as well, he also worked with the punisher and beat him into ground after killing some villains that Steve was recruiting, so what makes Tony working with the villains worse.

How is someone who regretted every choice they made, who tried to resolve things peacefully and reason with people every chance he got and had a real reason for supporting his side less sympathetic than someone who was uncompromising who coldly brushed off a death and people's reactions to it and started every single fight even when the opposition was offering a more peaceful solution? With all this clear as day how is Captain America more sympathetic and human than Iron Man? (This is just the main series not the tie ins Front lines went way too far in depicting registration as the villains)

I know this is an older post, but I do not get on here as much as I used to, so excuse me for posting an old argument, this is one of the best posts I have read about Tony's position in civil war and it is the most accurate.
I never really cared about the Civil war story, the writers were using this as a political statement towards the government at that time, that said, it always seemed everyone was pro cap, but I never saw his side, so yes I am team Iron Man

 

[scarlet-witch]

Team Cap!