Why are psychopaths allowed to join the Initiative?

The truth about Marvel's U.S. Government is they have always been more patient with super-villains than they often are with superheroes. Routinely, and for at least twenty years, any villain who was offered to "work for the government/military/black ops/etc." in order to work off any sentence or crime, whether theft or even murders, has usually been rubber stamped without much resistance. Examples include the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (back when they called themselves that; Mystique, Blob, Pyro, Avalanche, Destiny, and they'd only attempted to ASSASSINATE A SENATOR among their various offenses, both seperate and collective), Puppet Master (who has gone on to become a serial killer/white slaver), Eddie Brock/Venom (whose murders include security officers and even a cop or two), and likely others I have forgotten. They also have created a good score of monsters/threats in attempts to re-create "controllable" (re: mindlessly obedient) versions of Hulk and Capt. America, with more bad results than good. They also have had secret cabals or up front efforts to make mutant killing robots and whatnot. The Marvel U.S. government has usually been depicted as corrupt and rotten, sometimes even moreso than the real one.

So with that in mind, the concept of the CSA having nannite controlled freaks and psychos as stormtroopers is hardly unfounded. The shocking part came when Iron Man embraced them to go after his own friends, and so few of his allies objected. But that's water under the bridge at this point.

We all know the saying" Those who would exchange liberity for security, deserve neither."

Well there should be new saying: "Those who would exchange Captain America with Bullseye are stupid and deserve a punch in the face."
 
That should be fun. It should be telling to Marvel's editorial dept. that they seem to be getting a lot of anticipation and positive buzz for stories that promise to deliver a beating on Iron Man post CW. That may tell them that their method of "damage control" from overplaying the Pro-SHRA's nastiness with, "oh, just pretend it didn't happen and have Stark act somewhat more lenient and reasonable" may not fly. If this were wrestling, Stark would be the "heel" character right now. The character who fans can't wait to see get beaten down.
I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself. Thor and Spider-Man really deserved to give Tony a beat-down. The rest have been superfluous, in my opinion. Yes, that includes WWH's.
 
We all know the saying" Those who would exchange liberity for security, deserve neither."

Well there should be new saying: "Those who would exchange Captain America with Bullseye are stupid and deserve a punch in the face."

I can agree with that.

I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself. Thor and Spider-Man really deserved to give Tony a beat-down. The rest have been superfluous, in my opinion. Yes, that includes WWH's.

Well, if the Hulk wants to gun for the Illuminati, Iron Man is included. Granted, that battle was among the longest, whereas Black Bolt was dusted off-panel. :p

Thor and Peter deserve to beat on Tony, but not Bruce? :confused:

One could argue, whether you believe in the Hulk Math/Hulk Kills Innocents either way, that he always has been a danger and there have been periods where he was banished for the safety of himself and others before; most notably when Dr. Strange banished him to Otherworld. Granted, the Illuminati took little care for Hulk's safety (like they didn't expect Hulk to smash the ship internally enough to alter it's course....c'mon), but there is some sort of history of it. Heroes have sought to contain the Hulk before in Marvel.

Turning heroes into fugitives because they don't sign their lives to Uncle Sam, on the other hand, and siccing violent felons to do bodily harm to old friends, is quite another matter.
 
One could argue, whether you believe in the Hulk Math/Hulk Kills Innocents either way, that he always has been a danger and there have been periods where he was banished for the safety of himself and others before; most notably when Dr. Strange banished him to Otherworld. Granted, the Illuminati took little care for Hulk's safety (like they didn't expect Hulk to smash the ship internally enough to alter it's course....c'mon), but there is some sort of history of it. Heroes have sought to contain the Hulk before in Marvel.

Turning heroes into fugitives because they don't sign their lives to Uncle Sam, on the other hand, and siccing violent felons to do bodily harm to old friends, is quite another matter.

One could argue that, but it would be a weak one. I mean, Tony sent Bruce away. The result of that was the destruction of the peace Bruce had finally found, as well as an entire planet's inhabitants. On the other hand, Peter made a bad decision based on Tony's influence and May got shot. I'm not discounting Peter's situation, but it pretty much pales in comparison to Bruce's.
 
One could argue that, but it would be a weak one. I mean, Tony sent Bruce away. The result of that was the destruction of the peace Bruce had finally found, as well as an entire planet's inhabitants. On the other hand, Peter made a bad decision based on Tony's influence and May got shot. I'm not discounting Peter's situation, but it pretty much pales in comparison to Bruce's.

It is a "chicken or egg" thing with Hulk. He's fluctuated between peaceful and rampaging before. Cho and some of the Renegades see him through rose colored glasses, something Pak has hinted at for a while. The Hulk spent years as "the Professor" working for Pantheon and being an otherwise stable hero. But eventually it ends and he becomes more savage. He'd just busted up Vegas for whatever reason and the Illuminati acted.

That said, yeah, they were manipulative and haphazard about it. Mr. Fantastic has gone into space about a million times by now, and almost half the time, something unexpected happened that caused the ship to divert course or blow up or whatever. Surely out of all of them, he should have been the one who said, "Look, just tricking Bruce onto a rocket and waving him farewell isn't going to cut it." Of course, then we'd have no story, and then we get back to CW ground where story takes priority over what makes sense for a character to do or say.

The problem is nothing works with the Hulk. He never stays stable for long. Even if he hasn't killed anyone directly who wasn't bad, he has still caused millions if not billions in damages, lost business revenue (is there "Hulk Insurance" in Marvel?), and endangered people. Nothing seems to be able to contain or defeat the Hulk for long and so the best people have sort of managed to do is banish him and buy some time of peace. Even if you "left him alone", someone always bothers him, some enemy, some fluke of circumstance, and Hulk is unleashed. Hulk is almost like Lobo in terms of unkillability, or ability to surpass any superpower or technique with sheer brute force. He all but INVENTED that.

I'm not saying Hulk hasn't gone through the emotional crapshoot and has justification to be pissed. He does. But what I am saying is, the Illuminati were argueably more justified in shooting Hulk into space based on what had happened with him in the present and past, vs. essentially criminalizing half the superhero community out of a fear to tell the American public what it doesn't want to hear and stalling what MIGHT have happened but HADN'T in terms of harsher gov't response (if "the will of the people" was always right, we'd still have slaves and segregation. One iconic line I remember from a Stanley Ibson play I read for school: "The majority is NEVER right."). The last time Marvel Congress passed a law amazingly similar to the SHRA during the ACTS OF VENGEANCE storyline, it was defeated. Iron Man seemed to personally befriend Peter and use both job, home, and armor as bribes to make him his obedient toad. Then he turned around and oversaw some of his worst enemies getting badges to bring him in. It feels more personal.

Remember, the explosion that destroyed Sakaar hasn't been PROVEN to have been deliberately set by the Illuminati. Even if it was a malfunction of the ship and nothing more, they were negligent, not directly responsible. The stuff that Iron Man did during CW he did of his own accord. I think that is a bit of a difference.

That said, any comic that promises a Stark beating seems to get the fans all a flutter.
 
One could argue that, but it would be a weak one. I mean, Tony sent Bruce away. The result of that was the destruction of the peace Bruce had finally found, as well as an entire planet's inhabitants. On the other hand, Peter made a bad decision based on Tony's influence and May got shot. I'm not discounting Peter's situation, but it pretty much pales in comparison to Bruce's.

If you're going to blame Stark for "the destruction of the peace Bruce had finally found". Then you have to credit him for giving him that peace in the first place. If they hadn't sent Hulk off, he would have never crashed on Sakaar and would have never met Caiera. I can understand people hating the incomplete Illuminati (I don't get the specific focus on Tony) for sending Hulk off to exile. I can't understand the people still blaming the Illuminati for "murder" when what happened was an accident.

Funny thing is, the Hulk supposedly causes the specific damage he wants through gammamath...why did the ship blow up in such a fashion? Factors out of his control? Nope, gammamath is flawless.:whatever:

Right now I feel that what Peter is going through is just as bad as the Hulk. If May dies, then it's definitely worse than what the Hulk is going through.
 
Funny thing is, the Hulk supposedly causes the specific damage he wants through gammamath...why did the ship blow up in such a fashion? Factors out of his control? Nope, gammamath is flawless.:whatever:

There weren't any innocents around so there wasn't any reason for Hulk to avoid causing that kind of damage to the ship. And Hulkonometry works subconsciously so when his ship crashed he wouldn't have consciously known that he'd damaged the ship in such a way as to cause it to explode.

It works, at least inasmuch as one accepts Hulkulus in the first place.
 
They aren't part of the Initiative. The Thunderbolts are a US government program thats' apart from SHIELD's Initiative. Marvel managed to remember that the US govt. in the MU has always been distrustful of outside agencies and prone to be manipulative SOB's. We've already seen conflict a few times between the Thunderbolts and Stark and they've stated how they're different agencies. Stark managed to make them back down because he has connections with the President; otherwise, it's more than likely that the Thunderbolts have more pull than SHIELD or the Initiative since they answer to the US govt. directly.

Yeah they are they are the Colorado Team.

I would love to see Iron Man get a Tarintino-esque medieval beat down. At first I could believe that he believed in what he was doing and still considered him a hero. But hunting down his friends and turning a blind eye to working with organizations that hire Osborn, Scarecrow, Venom etceteras really makes him a person with little or no ethics or moral code IMO. Hopefully about 90% of the MU are Skrulls and we'll get back the some heroes with integrity.
 
The Skrull thing is too much of a quick fix for my tastes. Now, apparently this is something Bendis and Co. have been developing for 3+ years, so I'd have to take back that statement since the current Marvel climate is supposed to be due to the Secret Invasion. It'll be interesting to see if Marvel's promises that CW wasn't due to "villainous reasons" will be true after all. We'll just have to wait and see if this returns some of the heroic feeling back into the ol' MU. As for the Thunderbolts, I don't see them becoming quite as heroic while Ellis is writing them.
 
(like they didn't expect Hulk to smash the ship internally enough to alter it's course....c'mon)

Well, it wasn't the Hulk smashing the ship that set it off course, it was that a wormhole unexpectedly showed up out of nowhere.
 
Thor and Peter deserve to beat on Tony, but not Bruce? :confused:
Well, if the Hulk wants to gun for the Illuminati, Iron Man is included. Granted, that battle was among the longest, whereas Black Bolt was dusted off-panel. :p
Nope. The Illuminati ultimately weren't responsible for the destruction of Sakaar. I still believe Miek and Brood somehow triggered the explosion--probably intentionally. But even if they didn't, it would've just been an accident. Clearly, the Illuminati didn't intend to give the Hulk everything he ever wanted and then rob him of it. They just wanted him off their planet. Everything that happened after that was a series of unfortunate accidents (with the possible exception of the warp core explosion).
One could argue that, but it would be a weak one. I mean, Tony sent Bruce away. The result of that was the destruction of the peace Bruce had finally found, as well as an entire planet's inhabitants. On the other hand, Peter made a bad decision based on Tony's influence and May got shot. I'm not discounting Peter's situation, but it pretty much pales in comparison to Bruce's.
Peter's situation is questionable, certainly. I still think he deserves to give Tony a beat-down because Tony manipulated him into becoming the posterboy for registration, promised him his family would be safe if he revealed his identity, then failed to keep that promise. Then, when May is on her deathbed, Tony is the primary reason Peter is unable to get her the care she needs because he's a fugitive, plus Tony refuses to even pay for her medical expenses. Tony's involvement in May's getting shot is about as indirect as his involvement in the destruction of Sakaar, true; but his treatment of Peter after the fact is easily beat-down worthy in itself.
 
Didn't Tony give Peter 2 million in a roundabout way for May's health care?
 
Yeah, through Jarvis. But this was only after he tried to arrest Peter and then flat-out told him he wouldn't give him a single cent.
 
Yeah, through Jarvis. But this was only after he tried to arrest Peter and then flat-out told him he wouldn't give him a single cent.

Didn't he try to kill Peter? I remember him pointing his repulsors at Peter's head and after that getting ready to fire off his unibeam.

To be honest, I've only read a synopsis of the issue, I actually didn't see it myself yet.

Moving past that, since he ultimately did wire the money his way I suppose one could argue he was just trying to keep up appearances.
 
Nah, he doesn't try to kill Peter. He slams Peter through a wall and hits him with his uni-beam, but Peter's survived punches from the Hulk and the Juggernaut and all kinds of other stuff. I'm sure Tony knew Peter could take it.
 
Nah, he doesn't try to kill Peter. He slams Peter through a wall and hits him with his uni-beam, but Peter's survived punches from the Hulk and the Juggernaut and all kinds of other stuff. I'm sure Tony knew Peter could take it.

I see.
 

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