The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[LTuser]

I'd disagree there. Luke is more flawed than Rey, Rey is better at pretty much everything than Luke, and important people tend to like Ray more than they do Luke. Especially the latter really stands out, where Han suddenly wants a third member of the Falcon crew for the first time and Leia snubs Chewie to go hug a girl she's never met before when Han has died.

Neither of course fulfill all parts of the classic definition but I think Rey is much more of a Mary Sue than Luke is a Gary Stu.

True dat. Luke fell to the wampa, lost a hand to vader, let han get captured, and a # of other flaws.. So far, i've yet to really see ray have one, other than getting captured by kylo...

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Rewatched this last time. Yeah. This is a staggering piece of filmmaking. It's so , so good. It doesn't reinvent the wheels of filmmkaing. You won't see an experience like Mad Max Fury Road or Dunkirk, which play with and broaden what can be possible with films. What TLJ does is use the tools already available to make a super effective movie. I noticed how poetically character driven this film is. In an era where Blockbusters often choke on their own plot-level excesses, this film refuses to engage in mindless thrills. The character is supreme. Nothing is left to the anonymous checklist of Hollywood. Almost everything is organic and inevitable. It shouldn't be the case. There shouldn't be so much awe in what is **just** a well executed movie. But that's ultimately an indictment on how Hollywood usually fails at providing even the most basic and functional elements with competent execution. So when a movie that reminds us of the romance and scope a hollywood blockbuster at its best can provide, it's a blast.

 

[Mjölnir]

It's funny how different we experience films. I thought Fury Road and Dunkirk were disappointments beyond the visual aspect (there they certainly shone though, and while I was disappointed I still think they were good overall), and I think TFA failed the most with the characters. It just halted most character progression and had some of them display really questionable behavior from who they are and what situations they were in.

I can't say that I think it refuses to engage in mindless thrills either, with parts of Canto Bight going into full prequel mode as the best example, where no intended message avoided falling flat.

The blockbuster film (disregarding that it didn't bust any blocks at the BO) in the sci fi franchise category of last year that did deserve to be described like that would be Blade Runner 2049 for me. That was a film that nailed characters and themes, and it differed far more from the norm than TLJ.

 

[random_havoc]

Rewatched this last time. Yeah. This is a staggering piece of filmmaking. It's so , so good. It doesn't reinvent the wheels of filmmkaing. You won't see an experience like Mad Max Fury Road or Dunkirk, which play with and broaden what can be possible with films. What TLJ does is use the tools already available to make a super effective movie. I noticed how poetically character driven this film is. In an era where Blockbusters often choke on their own plot-level excesses, this film refuses to engage in mindless thrills. The character is supreme. Nothing is left to the anonymous checklist of Hollywood. Almost everything is organic and inevitable. It shouldn't be the case. There shouldn't be so much awe in what is **just** a well executed movie. But that's ultimately an indictment on how Hollywood usually fails at providing even the most basic and functional elements with competent execution. So when a movie that reminds us of the romance and scope a hollywood blockbuster at its best can provide, it's a blast.

You're in the wrong thread

 

[Frodo]

It's funny how different we experience films. I thought Fury Road and Dunkirk were disappointments beyond the visual aspect (there they certainly shone though, and while I was disappointed I still think they were good overall), and I think TFA failed the most with the characters. It just halted most character progression and had some of them display really questionable behavior from who they are and what situations they were in.

I can't say that I think it refuses to engage in mindless thrills either, with parts of Canto Bight going into full prequel mode as the best example, where no intended message avoided falling flat.

The blockbuster film (disregarding that it didn't bust any blocks at the BO) in the sci fi franchise category of last year that did deserve to be described like that would be Blade Runner 2049 for me. That was a film that nailed characters and themes, and it differed far more from the norm than TLJ.

The reality is , a lot of the post ROTJ sw films received positive reactions and over praise as their first initial reactions. It's usually after all the hype is gone that retro-actively , people being to look at the films more critically and the praise tends to fade and the flaws become apparent.

That's certainly been the case with TFA. TLJ was already polarized upon its initial release,and already I've seen a lot less of the initial defensiveness over the film,and people being a lot more willing to look at it more objectively without the emotion and rush of seeing a new SW has worn off.

 

[Aximili86]

Saying "the reality is" doesn't make it so. Half the fanbase love TLJ, bigtime. Along with a broad critical consensus, J.J., Lucas himself. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but let's not do this "objectively" ****.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Saying "the reality is" doesn't make it so. Half the fanbase love TLJ, bigtime. Along with a broad critical consensus, J.J., Lucas himself. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but let's not do this "objectively" ****.

agreed. which makes it all the more hilarious watching haters try their best to claim its a disaster of a film. You should see some of the youtube video titles i see out there! some of those people want disney to fail so bad. People who actually think the prequels are good movies, which makes me all the more glad they arent directing films. Even if you hates the new films, the idea of trying to say the prequels are better is a flawed opinion from a filmmaking standpoint. And those who do say that are either trying to be edgy, or just look at disney as an evil empire thats turning to liberal for their liking (such a stupid reason to hate disney). you can love the prequels more, but from a filmmaking standpoint they arent even close to being on the same level as TFA, RO, or TLJ.

I dont care if you hate TLJ or the force awakens, but to try to assume that this trilogy has been a failure based on your personal opinion is complete BS. Both films received universal critical acclaim, and a massive box office hall! Critics opinions matter and thats a damn fact because theyre star wars fans as well. Love it, hate it, the trilogy is doing just fine.

 

[Frodo]

Saying "the reality is" doesn't make it so. Half the fanbase love TLJ, bigtime. Along with a broad critical consensus, J.J., Lucas himself. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but let's not do this "objectively" ****.

Since you didn't bother addressing what I was actually saying , and didn't even really challenge it , I assume you agree with it .Ign even did a video on the point I was making . Look it up.

I never claimed to be "objectivity" either . Don't set up straw men. Respond to my argument then we'll talk.

Whether you love TLJ or makes no difference to me. Sorry, it doesn't. I was making a point about what's tended to happen after all of the SW .

 

[Frodo]

agreed. which makes it all the more hilarious watching haters try their best to claim its a disaster of a film. You should see some of the youtube video titles i see out there! some of those people want disney to fail so bad. People who actually think the prequels are good movies, which makes me all the more glad they arent directing films. Even if you hates the new films, the idea of trying to say the prequels are better is a flawed opinion from a filmmaking standpoint. And those who do say that are either trying to be edgy, or just look at disney as an evil empire thats turning to liberal for their liking (such a stupid reason to hate disney). you can love the prequels more, but from a filmmaking standpoint they arent even close to being on the same level as TFA, RO, or TLJ.

I dont care if you hate TLJ or the force awakens, but to try to assume that this trilogy has been a failure based on your personal opinion is complete BS. Both films received universal critical acclaim, and a massive box office hall! Critics opinions matter and thats a damn fact because theyre star wars fans as well. Love it, hate it, the trilogy is doing just fine.

I'm gonna assume that your post isn't directed towards characterizing how I feel about the film or the position I'm coming from. If it is , you're totally and utterly wrong about me at least, so much so its laughable if you actually knew me as opposed to assuming who I am or how you think I am.

If it wasn't directed towards my response then I'm gonna shock you a bit. I can actually agree with a lot of what you're what you saying about those who hate the film. I wouldn't say that about all of them , but you're correct their are definitely haters of the film.

There is a difference between personal opinion and facts. What I was talking about was how the initial reaction to all the post ROTJ sw films have been positive only to be picked apart later.

Doesn't mean that their hated , but it actually has happened and ign did a whole video on each it which I'll try to post as a link . The point I'm making really isn't controversial or inflammatory , its a fact. There are a lot more criticisms of TFA post TLJ and TLJ was a divisive film like it or not.

 

[godisawesome]

Saying "the reality is" doesn't make it so. Half the fanbase love TLJ, bigtime. Along with a broad critical consensus, J.J., Lucas himself. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but let's not do this "objectively" ****.

While I don't like TLJ, you are correct. Objective superiority for a film is near impossible to ascertain outside of wildly divergent films.

I *do* think we might be able to analyze points that are objectively weaker or stronger compared to other films in the Saga. For instance, I feel that TLJ has objectively better script-writing than ROTS, since almost everyone agrees that dialogue in the prequels is fairly weak while even critics of TLJ only oick at the context of the lines they don't like. Or like how I'd say that ROTS objectively uses lore and world building better for the military and political situation compared to TLJ, since there are clearly more worlds and visual diversity in ROTS and one of the big complaints about TLJ is it's repetitive political plotline from the OT.

Like, the argument between TFA and TLJ is clearly subjective. But objectively, I think that TFA has greater emphasis on the new characters having strong character arcs. Which is part of the reason I'll keep complaining about TLJ; I think that it's strengths are good, but that it shouldn't exacerbate the weaknesses of its predecessor.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'm gonna assume that your post isn't directed towards characterizing how I feel about the film or the position I'm coming from. If it is , you're totally and utterly wrong about me at least, so much so its laughable if you actually knew me as opposed to assuming who I am or how you think I am.

If it wasn't directed towards my response then I'm gonna shock you a bit. I can actually agree with a lot of what you're what you saying about those who hate the film. I wouldn't say that about all of them , but you're correct their are definitely haters of the film.

There is a difference between personal opinion and facts. What I was talking about was how the initial reaction to all the post ROTJ sw films have been positive only to be picked apart later.

Doesn't mean that their hated , but it actually has happened and ign did a whole video on each it which I'll try to post as a link . The point I'm making really isn't controversial or inflammatory , its a fact. There are a lot more criticisms of TFA post TLJ and TLJ was a divisive film like it or not.

It wasnt directed towards you at all actually haha. I was gonna say that it wasnt in my post, but forgot.

for me, TFA and TLJ have all been brilliant films in my mind. Ive seen the complaints, but theyll never change my mind on how much i love those 2 movies. haha for me, after watching TFA and TLJ, watching the prequels is even more difficult now.

 

[Frodo]

It wasnt directed towards you at all actually haha. I was gonna say that it wasnt in my post, but forgot.

for me, TFA and TLJ have all been brilliant films in my mind. Ive seen the complaints, but theyll never change my mind on how much i love those 2 movies. haha for me, after watching TFA and TLJ, watching the prequels is even more difficult now.

Not here to change your mind bro. Your opinion or your feelings are your own. Your experiences are your own. If anything , the problem I've seen with films like this is people can't accept that someone else doesn't feel the same way they do about a film.

I can only go by how I feel about something. If someone else agrees with me , fine. If they don't , fine. It doesn't effect my day and doesn't change my mind either way.

Anyway here's the ign video I was referring to.
https://youtu.be/P8351GuIoBY

Don't know if it'll work but if it doesn't its called, "The star wars effect: How nostalgia can distort objectivity".

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

It's been a couple of months since the last (see for detail/links). Current user ratings update. Now in image form:


(click image to enlarge)

 

[Silver Surfer]

It's been a couple of months since the last (see for detail/links). Current user ratings update. Now in image form:


(click image or link to enlarge)

The world has spoken, TLJ sucks

 

[Brother Jack]

The world has spoken, TLJ sucks

Yeah, you're right. These aggregate scores definitively prove it's an objectively bad movie. The scales have been lifted from my eyes. I finally see now how wrong I've been this whole time. How foolish of me to think I could formulate my own opinion.

 

[Frodo]

Yeah, you're right. These aggregate scores definitively prove it's an objectively bad movie. The scales have been lifted from my eyes. I finally see now how wrong I've been this whole time. How foolish of me to think I could formulate my own opinion.

Lol. As someone who wasn't too crazy by it, I can , if you liked , in the end, that's all that's matters.

What you got out of the film and what it meant to you is the most important thing at the end of the day.

No one can tell how to feel or how you should feel, whether they like it or not.

The biggest issue i've seen with this film is that both extreme sides of the argument seem to need some validation in having people agree with them about the film, which is impossible, because everyone has their own opinion.

 

[Brother Jack]

The biggest issue i've seen with this film is that both extreme sides of the argument seem to need some validation in having people agree with them about the film, which is impossible, because everyone has their own opinion.

It shouldn't be an all or nothing game. I think the movie has significant problems and there are things about it that I love. I hold both of those side by side, and I try not to get involved in collective thinking. It's gotten very tribal and ugly with this movie.

 

[Chlojack]

The Last Jedi felt more like Battlestar Galactica than a Star Wars movie. Force Awakens and Rogue One felt much more like Star Wars movies.

 

[Frodo]

It shouldn't be an all or nothing game. I think the movie has significant problems and there are things about it that I love. I hold both of those side by side, and I try not to get involved in collective thinking. It's gotten very tribal and ugly with this movie.

I try not either, and it gets me in alot of arguments over geek culture stuff in general with fellow fanboys who want me to either take one side 100 percent or the other side 100 percent.

I tend to be pretty nuanced in my responses anyway, whether I like or don't like.

I've seen this tribal behavior before with other properties, though alot of times ,its fans of one property versus fans of another as opposed to an internal divide within the same fanbase.

 

[Grootster]

I don't think those scores prove that it's a bad movie, but they do prove that the general public doesn't like it, which says a lot.

 

[Mjölnir]

I agree with the ones saying that no consensus can establish any right or wrong about a film. We all have our own opinions and that's what ultimately matters.

I tend to dislike the film more and more as I think about it, but I'm certainly not bothered in the least that some others love it. In fact that's great for them and I certainly don't want to dislike it.

 

[Grootster]

I hope we get a Plinkett review for TLJ. There was one for TFA and a smaller one for Rogue One. Since we haven't got a smaller one yet, I'm assuming they have a longer video planned for TLJ.

 

[Frodo]

I hope we get a Plinkett review for TLJ. There was one for TFA and a smaller one for Rogue One. Since we haven't got a smaller one yet, I'm assuming they have a longer video planned for TLJ.

If you mean the half in the bag guys , they did a TLJ review around the time film came out. It should be up on youtube .

They weren't very crazy about the film and didn't have a very flattering view of star wars fandom surrounding the film, from what I recall.

 

[henzINNIT]

I hope we get a Plinkett review for TLJ. There was one for TFA and a smaller one for Rogue One. Since we haven't got a smaller one yet, I'm assuming they have a longer video planned for TLJ.

Oh I'm sure there will be. Mike seemed to have a lot to say in the initial review. The fallout since release has been an interesting story as well.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

They ripped into the film again more harshly in the Best of the Worst: Merry Kick-mas! episode.