The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[Aximili86]

It took Luke years before he could properly wield a lightsaber, let alone use it in combat. It only took Rey a few days.

But he masters flying X-Wings a couple hours after arriving on the Rebel base, right? He'd only flown farm equipment & recreational Cessna-equivalents before, next thing you know he's besting Imperial Navy hotshots.

Not to mention pulling off a nigh-impossible shot in the trench after a couple of seconds of an old man cooing "Uuusseee the Fooorrrcccee Luuuukkee" a few times.

LolzGaryStu.

"The Force" is the explanation, plain and simple. Same reason Anakin could podrace at a thousand miles an hour as an eight year old.

Rey was also able to fend off against Kylo Ren's advances when it came to him probing her mind back in TFA, despite the fact that she had no real knowledge of the force and she bested him in combat (he wasn't that injured).

With the mind-probe thing, she just figured out what he was doing and turned it back on him. Reverse-engineering it in a sense. It's not all that outlandish, compared to the stuff Luke & Anakin pull off.

As for the fight, Kylo was pretty injured. A gut-shot with a weapon that sends regular stormtroopers flying 20 feet, and having been slashed across the back by Finn. Not to mention he was hardly in a prime state of mind, guy was basically having a mental breakdown.

Also, Rey has fighting experience, we know this. She's probably been fighting all her life on Jakku, that's likely not the first time in the market she's been jumped.

For what it's worth, Yoda didn't teach Luke d*ck in the way of swordplay on Dagobah, he'd never fought anyone before, and he stands toe-to-toe with Vader for a good while. Granted, Vader wasn't actually trying to kill him, but he's still the baddest mofo in the galaxy and not portrayed as a relative newbie like Kylo was.

Anakin was born as prophetic chosen one of the force, hence his force potential, and George Lucas stated that Luke had the same potential as well.

So we're bringing stuff that's not there on-screen into this now? That's going to open up the Rey stuff even further in counter to your points.

There's nothing remotely close to saying Luke's some uber-force-god level guy like Anakin in the OT. First we saw of that was last year, in VIII. OT Luke at the time wasn't some ultra force-child badass supreme, he's just the guy that can bring things back into balance by appealing to Anakin's better angels.

That being said, keep in mind Luke's still a relative newbie in VI. No training with a saber on-screen, it's been a year or so between V and VI, we're never shown or told how he got so much better between the two movies. He taught himself, basically.

LolzGaryStu. Etc.

Daisy Ridley even said on how Rey has no flaws as character; that statement alone should warrant that Rey really isn't much of a compelling character to start of with.

She's pretty clearly wrong. Go watch TFA. She's a hesitant, reluctant coward for like 2/3 of the film. She's insecure, self-doubting, pretty much no different to Luke.

But yes, all of this has been covered about eleventy-gazillion times since TLJ came out. You'll all still towing your particular line, no matter how many times it's logically taken apart.

 

[random_havoc]

But yes, all of this has been covered about eleventy-gazillion times since TLJ came out. You'll all still towing your particular line, no matter how many times it's logically taken apart.

It wasn't until the until the second movie that Luke was able to even move enough with the force that he could force pull his lightsaber, with nothing working against him he still had a hard time doing it.
Rey force pulls the lightsaber away from Kylo Ren, who has training and experience.
Luke isn't able to use the Jedi mind trick until the third movie, after being trained.
Rey uses the mind trick in the first movie, with zero training.

She's a Mary Sue. Simple as that

 

[Grootster]

There was a line of dialog in A New Hope that establishes hitting the death Star's exhaust port isn't that much harder than hitting womp rats, which Luke was skilled at. Yes there is some suspension of disbelief required, but least they attempt to establish something through dialog. As I've pointed out before, Luke acted fairly confused inside of the Falcon, which implies he can't fly a freighter, only smaller craft.

I honestly think the whole "Luke is also a Gary Stu" thing is one of the most nonsensical defenses I've seen for Rey because the movies at least attempt to justify Luke's abilities, whereas most of Rey's just come out of thin air. People who use this defense must have missed entire portions of dialog from A New Hope.

They could have easily dropped a similar line about Rey which would justify her being able to pilot the Falcon so easily. They could have had Rey say "I used to pilot freighters similar to this for Unkar Plutt" as they're running towards the Falcon or something.

 

[Aximili86]

They don't "come out of thin air" though. The fighting thing, she's been fending for herself since she was about 6, on this ne'er-do-well pirate/salvager outpost. She fends off three or four dudes with a staff long before she's even aware the Force is real and not just fairy-talk.

The piloting abilities, we know she's been doing stuff for Unkar, she's been inside these ships and knows some of the inner workings. Not a stretch to think she's been up in one of them, co-piloting or whatever. That's more experience than Luke upon leaving Tatooine.

And Grootster, c'mon now. Luke says the womprat line as a boast, he's playing the brash flyboy-wannabe trying to help out any way he can. There's no reason to think he could make it though, let alone with three TIEs on his tail the whole time, one of them piloted by the baddest mofo in the galaxy. Luke even being able to go toe-to-toe with Imperial Navy guys mere hours after having arrived on-base and never having set foot in an X-Wing before is no damn different to Rey & the Falcon.

The. Force.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Still waiting on Aximili86's rundown of Rey and Luke to show that there's no difference between them.

Don't take the cheap way out and just pick and choose some things you answer to with some questionable logic. If you want to make such strong statements that there's not even any difference between Rey and Luke, just show it. Apparently you think it's been proven in other places so you can just repeat that.

 

[Mjölnir]

They don't "come out of thin air" though. The fighting thing, she's been fending for herself since she was about 6, on this ne'er-do-well pirate/salvager outpost. She fends off three or four dudes with a staff long before she's even aware the Force is real and not just fairy-talk.

The piloting abilities, we know she's been doing stuff for Unkar, she's been inside these ships and knows some of the inner workings. Not a stretch to think she's been up in one of them, co-piloting or whatever. That's more experience than Luke upon leaving Tatooine.

And Grootster, c'mon now. Luke says the womprat line as a boast, he's playing the brash flyboy-wannabe trying to help out any way he can. There's no reason to think he could make it though, let alone with three TIEs on his tail the whole time, one of them piloted by the baddest mofo in the galaxy. Luke even being able to go toe-to-toe with Imperial Navy guys mere hours after having arrived on-base and never having set foot in an X-Wing before is no damn different to Rey & the Falcon.

The. Force.

That was a really bad description of what Luke does. First of all Luke is experienced with flying a T-16 Skyhopper, which moves just like a space ship but just doesn't leave the atmosphere. But even disregarding that, he doesn't go toe to toe with the Imperial Navy as he's not involved in any sort of dog fighting. He just flies in formation until he gets to the trench and then he follows that. We see no fancy flying from him whatsoever and the only reason he's not shot down is because other people get shot down before he's targeted, and then he's saved by the Falcon.

Rey on the other hand flies more expertly with the Falcon than we've ever seen Han do. It's even outmatching the flying of the Falcon in RotJ in the Death Star given her maneuver to stop the engines and turn the ship so it lines up a perfect shot for an immobile cannon.

To try to pass off these things as being the same is an exercise in futility.

 

[Aximili86]

He's drafted into a friggin' fighter squadron going against the biggest piece of military hardware the Empire has. Doesn't matter that we don't see any major dogfighting with Luke (a lot of that has to do with effects/tech limitations, there's not a lot of it in ANH period), he's still managing to run the trench without getting his by the cannons or shot down by the three TIEs right behind him , even as all of his comrades are getting picked off one by one.

A novice. The first time he's sat in the friggin' cockpit of the thing.

Yes, Luke has flying experience. But the equivalent of of a teenager with a couple hundred hours in a cheap second-hand Cessna, if it happened to have some rudimentary weapons systems on it. An F-15 pilot that is not.

As for Rey "expertly" flying the Falcon, bull****. The flashier stuff we see the craft do is just due to it being CG now and all the advancements in effects tech. She's pretty clearly struggling in that scene, she's not all calm & in-control & self-assured at it like Han & Chewie are. She understands the basic principles of flight and has a handle on the controls (which makes sense as the dialogue points to her having some familiarity with the ship and similar craft, mechanically), but she & Finn are still basically making it up as they go along.

Like, you know, Luke. Or little Anakin in the Naboo fighter. Yay, Star Wars is Star Wars.

 

[Mjölnir]

He's drafted into a friggin' fighter squadron going against the biggest piece of military hardware the Empire has. Doesn't matter that we don't see any major dogfighting with Luke (a lot of that has to do with effects/tech limitations, there's not a lot of it in ANH period), he's still managing to run the trench without getting his by the cannons or shot down by the three TIEs right behind him , even as all of his comrades are getting picked off one by one.

A novice. The first time he's sat in the friggin' cockpit of the thing.

Yes, Luke has flying experience. But the equivalent of of a teenager with a couple hundred hours in a cheap second-hand Cessna, if it happened to have some rudimentary weapons systems on it. An F-15 pilot that is not.

As for Rey "expertly" flying the Falcon, bull****. The flashier stuff we see the craft do is just due to it being CG now and all the advancements in effects tech. She's pretty clearly struggling in that scene, she's not all calm & in-control & self-assured at it like Han & Chewie are. She understands the basic principles of flight and has a handle on the controls (which makes sense as the dialogue points to her having some familiarity with the ship and similar craft, mechanically), but she & Finn are still basically making it up as they go along.

Like, you know, Luke. Or little Anakin in the Naboo fighter. Yay, Star Wars is Star Wars.

There are dog fights in the battle, Luke just isn't in any of them. We also don't see any fancy flying by him in the trench so that's not what saves him. You're reaching.

Luke is not a novice. He's directly stated to be the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories, which while it's done by a friend it's said to an officer and at least says that Luke is very highly skilled. A T-16 Skyhopper can definitely be flown in advanced ways like an X-Wing for that matter, just not in space.

Rey is definitely flying expertly as your little attempt to just blame CGI falls flat in the light of that lightsaber battles in the new films aren't as flashy as in the prequels. They are made closer to the OT becuase people aren't meant to be that skilled, which means that they are making decisions based on how things look compared to the previous films. She flies through the engine of an old Star Destroyer better than TIE fighter pilots can, and she pulls of a maneuver that's probably the most impressive we've seen yet, easily rivalling Poe's talents. And that in a clumsy ship in terms of size compared to actual fighters.

Anakin doesn't do any relevant flying in a fighter in TPM, despite that he, like Luke, is established to be an extraordinary pilot. He accidentally puts on the auto pilot, accidentally ends up inside the control ship, and then accidentally shoots the power core when he tries to get the ship going. Your attempts of making this the same thing as what Rey is doing is laughable. Sounds like you didn't even watch the film.

 

[Grootster]

Yeah, I agree with Mjölnir. I really don't even see how the two are that comparable.

And comparing Rey's abilities with Anakin might not be the best defense considering that gets a lot of criticism too.

 

[random_havoc]

They don't "come out of thin air" though. The fighting thing, she's been fending for herself since she was about 6, on this ne'er-do-well pirate/salvager outpost. She fends off three or four dudes with a staff long before she's even aware the Force is real and not just fairy-talk.

The piloting abilities, we know she's been doing stuff for Unkar, she's been inside these ships and knows some of the inner workings. Not a stretch to think she's been up in one of them, co-piloting or whatever. That's more experience than Luke upon leaving Tatooine.

And Grootster, c'mon now. Luke says the womprat line as a boast, he's playing the brash flyboy-wannabe trying to help out any way he can. There's no reason to think he could make it though, let alone with three TIEs on his tail the whole time, one of them piloted by the baddest mofo in the galaxy. Luke even being able to go toe-to-toe with Imperial Navy guys mere hours after having arrived on-base and never having set foot in an X-Wing before is no damn different to Rey & the Falcon.

The. Force.

You didn't address anything from my part, because there is no defence. She's clearly a Mary Sue. You're picking and choosing

 

[Brother Jack]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue would imply that she has no flaws, but I don't think that's true. She denies the call of the force in TFA and gets herself captured, and her eventual victory over Kylo has more to do with Kylo being heavily injured and manic than her being definitively stronger than him. In TLJ she fails in completing Luke's training, fails to bring him back to the fight (he eventually comes around because of Yoda), and resolutely fails in redeeming Kylo. It's obvious she's very powerful with the force and very skilled at a lot of things other characters are not, but she's not perfect. She has definable flaws. Her reluctance/fear to accept her independent role as hero is her Achilles heel, just as Luke's was his ambition in the OT.

 

[Aximili86]

Bingo.

 

[Herolee10]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue would imply that she has no flaws, but I don't think that's true. She denies the call of the force in TFA and gets herself captured, and her eventual victory over Kylo has more to do with Kylo being heavily injured and manic than her being definitively stronger than him. In TLJ she fails in completing Luke's training, fails to bring him back to the fight (he eventually comes around because of Yoda), and resolutely fails in redeeming Kylo. It's obvious she's very powerful with the force and very skilled at a lot of things other characters are not, but she's not perfect. She has definable flaws. Her reluctance/fear to accept her independent role as hero is her Achilles heel, just as Luke's was his ambition in the OT.

Well according to Daisy, it doesn't seem like she thinks that Rey has any flaws...

[YT]E4e9nnJYJ9E[/YT]

Be that as it may, it also doesn't help that Rey has already defeated the main villain for this trilogy, in a situation where she had received any training as of yet.

And even though Rey is powerful in the force, that doesn't justify on how she can wield a lightsaber so easily after only a few days of practice. It took everyone else years to master and wield a lightsaber.

 

[Schlosser85]

She's not really a Mary Sue any more than Luke was a Gary Stu in the original.

 

[Mjölnir]

She's not really a Mary Sue any more than Luke was a Gary Stu in the original.

I'd disagree there. Luke is more flawed than Rey, Rey is better at pretty much everything than Luke, and important people tend to like Ray more than they do Luke. Especially the latter really stands out, where Han suddenly wants a third member of the Falcon crew for the first time and Leia snubs Chewie to go hug a girl she's never met before when Han has died.

Neither of course fulfill all parts of the classic definition but I think Rey is much more of a Mary Sue than Luke is a Gary Stu.

 

[Aximili86]

Daisy's wrong. Same way Mark was wrong on his initial reaction to Luke's story in TLJ.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Mark was entirely correct in what a Jedi is about and how Luke has been established as a character. Anyone that's seen the previous movies know that.

Of course he can't be allowed to badmouth a movie he's supposed to promote, and he wants the paycheck for Episode IX, so he had to hush down.

 

[Aximili86]

All of the personality traits Luke displayed in TLJ have their roots/origins in aspects of the OT. It's an evolution, a progression, not a departure.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

No, they decided to break him by exposing him to the same kind of situation that he's already been exposed to, except for that the situation he prevailed in had far, far higher stakes.

The Luke in the OT was firmly established to always have the desire to work for the greater good, and he never, ever gave up on people he cared about. They just changed that with no other justification than that they wanted it to be the case.

It's just like if Infinity War would have Steve Rogers turn his back on everyone and not care about helping people in need, and justify it by that in the time we didn't see him he worked for someone that turned out to be dishonest. Screw that he never gave up while having worked for an organization infiltrated by Hydra, lowering the stakes and making it happen off screen makes it much more devastating...

Luckily the MCU doesn't stumble along without a plan and hire writers that don't get character progression based on core aspects.

 

[Aximili86]

Luke in the OT was a 19-21-23 year old kid still on the up-and-up optimism wise.

Tell me the 50-somethings you know, generally speaking, are the same exact people they were at 23, especially if they've gone through some major hardships & losses in the interim.

Luke's always been an impulsive, instinctive, even unwise guy. The lapse of judgement in what he was going to do to Ben isn't at all without precedent. He came around in the end, didn't go through with it, which is exactly what went down with Vader. He was about to laser-sword the guy into oblivion three seconds before he wasn't.

 

[Frodo]

The Luke of TLJ is what would have happened if after ESB he ran off and hid, feeling betrayed by Ben , afraid to face Vader again, conflicted about his father and in inner turmoil, and grew old, while the other characters moved on without him. In other words, had his story ended with ESB.

I won't go as far to say he's nothing like the Luke of the OT, but its certainly not the Luke of ROTJ, which was the last version of Luke we saw. In that sense, Mark is correct that it isn't the Luke Skywalker of the ROTJ.

I see it more as more of what Luke would have been had he not recovered from the blows of ESB and bowed out of the fight between the empire and rebellion.

 

[Aximili86]

Or, you know, succeeded the first time with his dad but when it all went down a second time with his nephew, it broke him.

Which was the entire freakin' point.

 

[Mjölnir]

Luke is impulsive and instinctive, but he's always that in the desire to do good. People are also correct in that he's never given up on anyone, but now we're to believe that he gave up as soon as he saw Ben having gone a good way towards falling to the dark side? I don't buy that character development.

The worst part of him giving up on Ben is that he knew that Ben had been seduced by Snoke. Ben was a victim and yet Luke couldn't muster up the will to even try to help him.

It also makes so little sense that Luke feels that he has to go away because he's a Jedi and that the Jedi way has failed. Did they completely miss the huge parts of the OT where Luke goes against what he's told to do and be in order to do what's right? The Luke we got to learn would shed the Jedi teachings and go on with what he thought was doing the right thing.

The worst part is that it's not particularly hard to make him act like Luke Skywalker and still get broken. For example by actually having him try to save Ben and to confront Snoke, but just fail. He could go away looking for another way to deal with it, but not find any and become hopeless. That way we still have a Luke that doesn't instantly give up on people, and we would have someone that had all the intentions of doing what's right just like he's always had.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Or, you know, succeeded the first time with his dad but when it all went down a second time with his nephew, it broke him.

Which was the entire freakin' point.

That's a complete crap point. Success at difficult things don't make you less able to deal with far smaller things of the same nature.

And the whole point is that Luke, and the Jedi, are not about moping for yourself but to be selfless and look at which people need your help. If Luke wanted to die, then risk death by helping your nephew that was manipulated by the dark lord.

It's so funny that there's a deleted scene where Luke tells Rey that her desire to help people is what the Resistance needs. So they need the trait that's always been Luke's core trait? That really shows that they just wrote Luke as a different character for no other reason but so they can shoehorn in their new version of Luke.

 

[Frodo]

Or, you know, succeeded the first time with his dad but when it all went down a second time with his nephew, it broke him.

Which was the entire freakin' point.

Which is pretty obvious, yet misses the point I was making.

The argument is whether or not the actions of the Luke of TLJ are consistent with the Luke of the OT.

I don't think Mark Hamill's view on that subject is that off the wall. I was fine with what Johnson did with Luke, but I can concede that it really wasn't consistent with the Luke of the OT.

Johnson decided to take the character in a new direction, and for the purposes of the story I accepted it.