Why do people say Zack Snyder doesn’t respect comics?

[Gothamsknight]

The fact it is going to be four ****ing hours long is a death sentence. I cannot imagine it warranting such a ridiculous length, it's clear they just want to use every single frame of footage Snyder shot to bump it up to a miniseries.

I am kind of looking forward to more hilariously overwrought Terrio dialogue. Can't decide if Terrio is a genuinely crummy, awkward writer who got lucky with Argo or if he's just completely unskilled with big science fiction/fantasy work because it ain't his wheelhouse. I'm a little curious how much of what they shot is Terrio's writing, if memory serves it was being heavily rewritten by Johns during production and I feel like team Snyder would never admit their cut contains material by him.

I'm honestly not even gonna bother watching it. the trailer for the Snyder Cut was terrible to me, and it looked like a launch title video game for new consoles that people quickly forget about. Truly, I don't understand what the big deal is about this ******* thing. Meanwhile, The Batman trailer released the same day and it has me more hyped than I've been for any comic book film since at least TDKR. It looks original, visually stunning, and like it's in the hands of someone who actually knows how to tell a meaningful story.

What exactly about the Snyder cut looks so different than the dreadful theatrical? it's been stripped of color, and everything looks so forced. Mark my words, outside of HBO Max and the Snyder fan bubble, it's gonna be a fart in the wind.

 

[Sorath]

The idea that if movie Jonathan has to die he should only die from natural cause probably heart attack, that is so much better or the best take on the idea that Superman can't save everyone, does suggest a lot of unwillingness to having anything too different from the 1978 film.

There is a third option that no one has done other TV series and that is Jonathan doesn't die. It's not essential that Jonathan die. This is not like Uncle Ben dying and Peter suddenly realizing that with great power comes great responsibility and thus sending him down the path of being a hero.

In comics there been points where Jonathan was still alive and other times he dead. The point there are some great moments between Clark and his father. In fact Id say there better case for keep Jonathan alive vs killing him off.

Example is Superman v Elites.Towards end of that story line Superman actually starting to feel he isn't what world needs any more. That the Elites are what the world need. It's Jonathan that tells him if its not broken don't fix it. He tells him never back down when he knows he right. To stand up for what he believes in. In time the world would see he right. Then he tells him that he should just kick there butts for tugging on his cape.

The point is Superman is the powerful character who the whole world looks up to. Yet those moments that he turns to his parent for guidance in my opinion are golden. Its one things I loved about Lois and Clark the New Adventures of Superman.

Which brings me to last point which is the 1978 Superman. You don't need to make Superman like that. Lois and Clark while kind of a cheesy 90s show did the best and most accurate version of Superman/Clark in my opinion. That should be what your striving to do. The bottom line is if you want to do it and do it right you go to source material.

One last point. Killing Jonathan off in comics served a purpose it was a moment when Superman comes face to face that even with all his powers there are real limits to what he can do. Killing Jonathan off in a natural disaster actually the way Snyder did actually not only fails to get Superman but Jonathan as well. Superman would never have stood by and did nothing and let his father or any one die just to protect his secret. Snyder doesn't get that at all. His parents wouldn't ask him to stand by and do nothing why people where in danger. They way Snyder did it in my opinion is actually disrespectful of the characters.

 

[Sorath]

Zack Snyder makes moves for emo teens, edgelords and manchildren. He does not make movies for "adults". Want to see a superhero flick for "adults"?









Also am I missing something or is his name Zack, not Zac?

Yes but even those films kids can still sit down and watch and enjoy and understand what is going on. There might be a few elements in film that are over their head but they can still understand what is happen and enjoy the film.

Its spelled Zack but think some people shorten it for Zac.

 

[fan4stic]

I agree with The Dark Knight. Can't talk about The Batman.

Wonder Woman is a children's fairy tale. And that's not criticism, it's s great fairy tale (not unlike, say the very best of Star Wars or Doctor Who), but what a lot people miss due to the harsh real life scenario it's set in is that it's a coming of age story where the heroine learns that, while it's true that sometimes child-like innocence is slowly eroded when it's thrown into the world, sometimes things as simple as love and empathy do have a positive, lasting effect on the world.

And Logan is, at least in my opinion a very, very juvenile movie that's ashamed of being juvenile.

I think we have very different concepts of what a fairy tale is. I don't see a fairy tale as being something that showcases someone who finds people, children, having been killed and has to accept that humanity is destructive, on their own, and deal with that. But I don't see why fairy tales are only for kids as well.

I don't see anything particularly juvenile in Logan, more than what's in BvS.

 

[Babillygunn]

The only world where Logan is juvenile, and BvS is adult is this one:

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Yeah, BvS has a lot of babble about Big Serious Things but doesn’t have anywhere near the emotional depth of Logan. The characters in Logan feel like real, flesh and blood people rather than ciphers who are at best elevated by virtue of being played by Ben Affleck or Amy Adams. Or Scoot McNairy, he’s pretty good too.

 

[metaphysician]

Yeah, but that's not what some of the pro-Snyder crowd are saying now. They've been saying it was never going to be more than five films. When you point out to them the obvious spin-offs like Squad and Wonder Woman, they say those are self contained films and not a part of a shared universe. It's honestly kind of bonkers and like arguing with crazy people.

If the intent was for it to continue on, it does seem like the legs were cut out from some of the corners before they could make it far. Batman's career is already winding down, Dick Grayson was killed and we didn't even get any time to see him as Robin, him being dead means we're not getting an accurate take on the Teen Titans or Nightwing, and if it was never going to be Jason they are leaving the chance to push Red Hood merchandise on the table, etc. Clark's secret ID would be blown if he was killed in his second movie and resurrected in his third. It also doesn't seem we were ever going to get more solo Superman movies (which were needed), and instead rely on the JL films as his arc. Which screws over both him and the other characters.

Once that storyline is over, is a foundation that includes a dour Superman having already experienced his death and resurrection, been mind controlled by Darkseid and being so poorly defined as a character with not much of a life really a solid foundation to continue stories out of?



Seeing as how Snyder has been upfront that he intended Dick to be dead even after the film's release, I'm doubtful it was a misdirection on his part at least. WB not letting him do it is one thing, but if it was a major part of this Batman's arc (yet also didn't warrant more than "hints," lol these movies are so bad), wouldn't that have impacted his arc?

If I had to make a wild guess: Robin being dead might have been a pitch that ( some ) execs accepted as a way to 'solve' their Robin problem. He's simultaneously a thing in the movie, and also not something they need to actually show. Win win!

Aside from, you know, being a terrible idea that doesn't actually resolve the "Why are you not delivering one of the most iconic characters in your mythos?" problem at all. But then, I suspect that WB execs have a much higher intolerance for things like Robin ( or bright costumes, or idealistic heroism, or. . . ) than the average viewer.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I would be fascinated to know what the behind the scenes history of this "five film arc" idea was because, while I don't think he's lying per se, something about that has always felt like mythmaking on Snyder's part to me. The DCEU clearly wasn't intended to be some Elseworlds mini-series even if Zack's movies had a particular arc mapped out.

The Grayson death thing clearly got put aside real early.

 

[Erzengel]

I would be fascinated to know what the behind the scenes history of this "five film arc" idea was because, while I don't think he's lying per se, something about that has always felt like mythmaking on Snyder's part to me. The DCEU clearly wasn't intended to be some Elseworlds mini-series even if Zack's movies had a particular arc mapped out.

The Grayson death thing clearly got put aside real early.

From what it sounded like, JL1 should end with

Spoiler

WW beheading Steppenwolf and his head rolling towards the boom tube to Darkseid's feet.

JL2 would involve the Knightmare future of BvS with evil Superman and Cyborg, Batman & Flash trying to change the future. JL3 would end with Batman sacrificing himself to save everyone. Clark and Lois name their son Bruce. And then a Man of Steel sequel.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

From what it sounded like, JL1 should end with

Spoiler

WW beheading Steppenwolf and his head rolling towards the boom tube to Darkseid's feet.

JL2 would involve the Knightmare future of BvS with evil Superman and Cyborg, Batman & Flash trying to change the future. JL3 would end with Batman sacrificing himself to save everyone. Clark and Lois name their son Bruce. And then a Man of Steel sequel.

The fact Zack was gonna resurrect Superman, have him presumably be unhinged and dangerous for a bit before getting back to his old self... For exactly one movie before becoming Darkseid's ****ing mind controlled slave is really something. I don't buy into the Snyder hates Superman thing, because Man of Steel is honestly pretty good in my books, but hot damn.

 

[Sithborg]

He doesn't hate Superman. He just misunderstands Superman.

 

[metaphysician]

I wouldn't say Snyder *hates* Superman, per se. He just is almost completely lacking in understanding of the aspects that make Superman, Superman. All he sees is godlike might, without godlike compassion or virtue. Hence why you end up with a Superman only separated by degrees from Doc Manhattan, in terms of inhuman distance.

 

[TheVileOne]

I would be fascinated to know what the behind the scenes history of this "five film arc" idea was because, while I don't think he's lying per se, something about that has always felt like mythmaking on Snyder's part to me. The DCEU clearly wasn't intended to be some Elseworlds mini-series even if Zack's movies had a particular arc mapped out.

The Grayson death thing clearly got put aside real early.

I mean Affleck was supposed to direct and star in his own Batman film and DC wanted him in his own Batman trilogy before everything went down the drain.

 

[TheVileOne]

From what it sounded like, JL1 should end with

Spoiler

WW beheading Steppenwolf and his head rolling towards the boom tube to Darkseid's feet.

JL2 would involve the Knightmare future of BvS with evil Superman and Cyborg, Batman & Flash trying to change the future. JL3 would end with Batman sacrificing himself to save everyone. Clark and Lois name their son Bruce. And then a Man of Steel sequel.

Frankly, I'm kind of glad this never happened.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes but even those films kids can still sit down and watch and enjoy and understand what is going on. There might be a few elements in film that are over their head but they can still understand what is happen and enjoy the film.

Its spelled Zack but think some people shorten it for Zac.

You say that like it's a bad thing, or that it somehow invalidates the maturity of a film.

Frankly, I'm kind of glad this never happened.

Kind of?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

He doesn't hate Superman. He just misunderstands Superman.

Yeah, it's WB who hates Superman.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The fact Zack was gonna resurrect Superman, have him presumably be unhinged and dangerous for a bit before getting back to his old self... For exactly one movie before becoming Darkseid's ****ing mind controlled slave is really something. I don't buy into the Snyder hates Superman thing, because Man of Steel is honestly pretty good in my books, but hot damn.

That's because of Jonah Nolan and Hans Zimmer.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

That's because of Jonah Nolan and Hans Zimmer.

That’s right, weren’t there heavy rumours Jonathan Nolan polished the screenplay?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That’s right, weren’t there heavy rumours Jonathan Nolan polished the screenplay?

Yes, and considering some of the elements and dialogue, that makes sense .

 

[SiegePerilous]

If I had to make a wild guess: Robin being dead might have been a pitch that ( some ) execs accepted as a way to 'solve' their Robin problem. He's simultaneously a thing in the movie, and also not something they need to actually show. Win win!

Aside from, you know, being a terrible idea that doesn't actually resolve the "Why are you not delivering one of the most iconic characters in your mythos?" problem at all. But then, I suspect that WB execs have a much higher intolerance for things like Robin ( or bright costumes, or idealistic heroism, or. . . ) than the average viewer.

I think Robin has more of an uphill battle than other iconic characters due to the kind of outdated "kid sidekick" archetype that doesn't translate as easy to film as others. But it's also not impossible. I'm hoping he shows up in the Reeves films depending on how they evolve.

After all, Aquaman was just as much of a joke as Robin if not more so, and $1 billion later, that's no longer an issue. Creatives who dismiss Robin after that are (IMO) just gonna seem lazy and misunderstanding a key relationship that Bruce is a little lesser without.

The fact Zack was gonna resurrect Superman, have him presumably be unhinged and dangerous for a bit before getting back to his old self... For exactly one movie before becoming Darkseid's ****ing mind controlled slave is really something. I don't buy into the Snyder hates Superman thing, because Man of Steel is honestly pretty good in my books, but hot damn.

It's also doesn't sound like he would have a hand in freeing himself from Darkseid's control.

So much for the champion of the oppressed/Man of Tomorrow/Mightiest Superhero. Siegel and Shuster would be spinning in their graves.

Yeah, it's WB who hates Superman.

Yet God forbid someone else make money off the IP, so they refuses to ever let it leave their clutches.

 

[STARMAN]

Jonathan Nolan didn't polish the MOS script. I recall there were rumors, including I believe by someone on this forum named Gilberg or something like that, saying he did. But I asked David Goyer about this and he said he was the only writer and no one else helped write the script. There was also an interview with Jonathan Nolan before the film came out and he was asked about Superman. He said something about being curious what his brother came up with but had no real interest in Superman because he was interested in vigilantes. This was a long time ago so I don't recall the exact words in both cases but that's how I remember it.

 

[Man in the Suit]

I totally believe Jonah Nolan did a polish. The Jor-El/Lois god mode scene is straight out of his works.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I totally believe Jonah Nolan did a polish. The Jor-El/Lois god mode scene is straight out of his works.

It's God Mode, but with the visible Root Machine from the finale.

 

[Sithborg]

And yet, the neck snap was left in, despite knowing the reasoning for it...

 

[SwordOfMorning]

You know I give Snyder a really hard time but I don't have an issue with the neck snap on principle. It's more akin to the "kills" in The Dark Knight Trilogy where it's a backed into a corner, no real other option scenario. That being said I don't think the scene adequately conveys a sense of desperation. Cavill's horrified reaction to having to kill someone is one of my favourite moments he's had as Supes.

Clark having to kill someone who is equally powerful in a desperate, no win situation really doesn't feel like a betrayal of the character for me. If Clark killed, I dunno, Toyman or Luthor that is ****ed no matter what because of the power disparity. If he killed Darkseid as a last resort? Isn't quite the same.