Comics Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

[theMan-Bat]

Frank Miller doesn't hate Superman, Batman and Superman are just not friends.

As seen in Miller's All-Star Batman & Robin, Dark Knight Returns and DK2, Batman thinks Superman is a thick headed idiot just repeating whatever Ma and Pa Kent told him about "truth, justice and the American way", following this conservative patriotic 1950s moral code without giving it a damn thought, and things are not that simple and black and white.

And Superman, as Miller puts it, "is a little scared of Batman." Batman doesn't follow the rules and obey the law. He feels heroes have a responsibility to obey the law and set a positive example to others. Heroes are suppose act in a certain way, he thinks, and Batman acts more like an insane villain. But he tries to talk sense into him and reason with him, as he did in Dark Knight and DK2, and he sent Hal to talk sense into him and reason with him in All-Star Batman and Robin.

Frank Miller obviously likes the Superman character, however Batman doesn't. I especially love the Fleischer-esque Superman look Miller gave him in DK2. Darwyn Cooke later gave Superman this look in New Frontier.

In Comics Interview #31,

Miller explained: "I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly."

 

[theMan-Bat]

I don't know Frank Miller doesn't exactly like the Green Latern either from the looks of All Star Batman and Robin.

Don't confuse the writer with the Batman character. As is the case with Superman, Frank Miller likes Green Lantern, it's Batman who doesn't. In All-Star Batman Hal Jordan speaks in an antiquated fashion saying things like “all we’ve seen is him [Batman] tossing the young fella into the car…” And I love how he's wearing the old Gil Kane version of the costume. He is a simple, nice guy. The way superheroes used to be. Miller has gone on record several times stating that he was upset several years back when they gave Hal a DUI (in the Emerald Dawn II storyline), and, a few years later, they would make him a mass murderer. He felt that it was unnecessary to add that level of darkness to that character (i.e. Batman is a character that lends himself to a darker treatment; there’s no need to do that with GL). "Why Green Lantern became a drunk driver when he can fly always loses me," Miller explains. "And I'm told they turned him into a mass murderer as well. The fun's gone out of it. I want to try my hand at bringing it back."
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=192

For Miller, Green Lantern represents a simpler more innocent time in superhero comics. So, he puts him in the Gil Kane costume.

 

[DavidTyler]

You simply have no sense for fantasy and excitement. Superman is wishfulfillment.

You know, I'm discovering that I really don't care to read your posts anymore.

You have a vision of these characters that implies a much younger take.

I've outgrown the fantasy aspect and want Superman stories to be more than 'wish fulfillment'. I want superman stories with drama, conflict, action, and humanity. I have no desire to return to the Red Kryptonite Ant Headed Superman days.

I don't need to play 'wish fulfillment with any of my favourite characters. I want them to entertain me. 'Wish fulfillment' is a dead end. Once you've seen the character fly, punch holes in things, use his other powers... you're basically done. There are no more stories to tell ... excluding the silliness they did back in the campy 50's.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Frank has given interviews on this topic before.

I wish I could find them to show you.

But basically Frank feels that Batman and Superman could never be friends.He feels that the differences in their ideologies makes them incompatible as friends.

Frank see's Batman as a person who believes that their's no control in life unless you take it,That the system is broken and needs to be fixed, that the world is going to hell in a hand basket,that people are more prone to selfishness,hate and greed.

Ultimately he see's Batman as a the worlds biggest pessimist.

Frank see's Superman as a person who thinks the world is basically a "Nice Place", that with only a little help things will always turn out right,That the system works and doesn't need fixing,that people are more prone to selflessness,love and compassion.

Ultimately he see's Superman as the worlds biggest optimist.

And Frank feels that two people with 2 vastly different views on life and the world could never be friends.

Exactly.

 

[Ziggyman]

Supes is a boy scout!

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Exactly.

I'll accept that as a complement.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Supes is a boy scout!

Both are.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Both are.

By who's definition of "Boy scout"?????

Batman may be prepared for everything like a boy scout but he's willing to break almost any law to see that justice is done.

Thats far from a "Boy Scout".

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Superman breaks "laws", too.

 

[The Batkilt]

I don't see what the insult about Superman being a 'boy scout' is. It ties in with the optimism of the character and the story. Sure, Superman has it's dark moments like any story does but to me more of it's appeal is the 'white knight' aspect to him. Superman and Batman in most ways are just different sides of the same coin.

Personally, I prefer Batman, but generally I'm more of a pessimistic person. I still think Superman is one of the most inspirational fictional characters there is.

 

[Cain]

By who's definition of "Boy scout"?????

Batman may be prepared for everything like a boy scout but he's willing to break almost any law to see that justice is done.

Thats far from a "Boy Scout".

The modern Batman doesn't kill because he believes in giving second chances and in justice that seems like a boy scout trait to me. Also like Superman he also believes in the best in people this is why he's able to take minors under his wing, prepeare them and be sure that they'll always do the right thing whether he's there or not like a scout master does. Yes when it comes to both characters some of their idealogies may be different even if they both have the same intent, but both are by definition "boy scouts". So people need to stop trying to act like that's a put down towards Supes cause Batman is just as guilty.

 

[Cain]

I don't see what the insult about Superman being a 'boy scout' is.

Only people who don't understand the character would throw such a phrase around as if it's a negative, pay them no mind. I prefer Batman to Supes too but only cause if it wasn't for Batman comics I wouldn't even be into comics they single handedly got me into the DCU and helped me learn how to read when I was an extremely young child. I have a very strong attachment to the bat titles cause of that. However both to me are the greatest heroes bar none and though I prefer Batman I think Superman is the superior hero.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The modern Batman doesn't kill because he believes in giving second chances and in justice that seems like a boy scout trait to me.

The modern day Batman does not kill because he refuses to use the methods of his enemy's.

Because he doesnt feel he has the right to be Judge,Jury and executioner.

Because he feels that if he were to take a life,no matter how deserving, that he would be no better than the man that killed his parents.

Thats why he doent kill characters like the Joker who has had more "2nd chances" then anyone can ever expect.

Also like Superman he also believes in the best in people this is why he's able to take minors under his wing, prepeare them and be sure that they'll always do the right thing whether he's there or not like a scout master does.

And unlike Superman, who does it to help others deal with being different, Batman trains minors so as to insure that there will always be soldiers to fight his personal war.

Batman trains his apprentices as part of his strategy to fight his war on crime.

His reasons are not as "Nobel" as Supermans.

That differentiates Batman from Superman and a Scout Master.

Yes when it comes to both characters some of their idealogies may be different even if they both have the same intent, but both are by definition "boy scouts".

So people need to stop trying to act like that's a put down towards Supes cause Batman is just as guilty.

I would disagree.

I say the differences in Batmans "intentions" and "reasons" for doing what he does excludes him from the title "Boy scout".
But I agree it shouldnt be considered a put down.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

yeah we get it. Batman is TEH badass. He doesn't show any COMPASSION he just does everything for selfish reasons! He breaks BONES of criminals for his own pleasure! And Superman is teh DUMB and teh naive idiot.

 

[Cain]

The modern day Batman does not kill because he refuses to use the methods of his enemy's.

Because he doesnt feel he has the right to be Judge,Jury and executioner.

Exactly, he believes in the purpose of the law and not that he's above it. Like a boy scout.

Because he feels that if he were to take a life,no matter how deserving, that he would be no better than the man that killed his parents.

Yes he believes something as unlawlful as murder will give him bad character, like a boy scout.

Thats why he doent kill characters like the Joker who has had more "2nd chances" then anyone can ever expect.

Batman continues dishing out these second chances cause he believes that his villains even the monsters are redeemable deep down inside. This is a naivety seen in boy scouts and the reason a lot of his rogues were given "tragic origins" is to further highlight that fact.

And unlike Superman, who does it to help others deal with being different, Batman trains minors so as to insure that there will always be soldiers to fight his personal war.

Batman trains his apprentices as part of his strategy to fight his war on crime.

His reasons are not as "Nobel" as Supermans.

That differentiates Batman from Superman and a Scout Master.

You completely miss the point if you honestly think the intentions are that selfish. Batman is one of the most altruistic human beings in the DCU. The real reason he took these protege's under his wing is cause he wanted to help them cope with being different. I'll explain

Had he not taken Dick Grayson, Cassandra Cain and Jason Todd and instilled values in them and trained them to be part of a larger cause they probably would've became reckless and law breaking lost souls without the proper guidance. He trains or takes them under his wing to help them better themselves as people because they're on the edge between right and wrong

Cassandra is riddled with guilt cause of her past, she feels angry, confused and misguided over what her fate brought he when she encounters Batman he helps give her direction. Same with Dick and Jason. Now yes in the long run this also benefits his war on crime but first and foremost he bothers helping them because the right thing to do is to help others pick themselves up when they're down, that's as noble as it gets.

I say the differences in Batmans "intentions" and "reasons" for doing what he does excludes him from the title "Boy scout".
But I agree it shouldnt be considered a put down.

Nope cause like Superman, Batman is in many ways a loner yet he has no problems with fellowship at all (his bat family, JLA, Outsiders) because he believes in the strength and will of others who also want to do the right thing. Like a boyscout. So no I can't agree cause once again different idealogies between both yet they still have the same intent. As TruerToTheCore said Batman is a boy scout.

Batman is who he is out of selflessness he wants to improve his community he's not doing it for his own reasons he seriously believe his city and the people in it are not beyond saving. He feels creating a symbol and training was a neccessity because when he starts a lot of the people who represent the law in his vicinity are corrupt and feel that they're above it. The only just people who encounters are Gordon and Dent who he helps because they're the system and could make things right for there not to be a neccessity for him to be out there like a vigilante every night. Even TDK an adaptation and not even a comic got that right. That's very boy scoutish indeed.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Exactly. I can completely agree with Cain. Some people tend to make Batman into something he is not. Hell, there is this successful movie called "THe Dark Knight" which shows us a Batman who really cares about the people, not himself and "believes" in them. Not really THAT pessimistic.

And, for example, Judge Dredd is a much more ruthless character than Batman or Superman yet he stays TOTALLY within the law and makes moral speeches about this. Would you call him a "boy scout"?

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Exactly, he believes in the purpose of the law and not that he's above it. Like a boy scout.

No he believes in Justice even when its "in spite" of the law.

To him the law is a tool of justice and not an absolute.

Very "un-like" a "boy scout" who are taught to obey the law at any cost.

Yes he believes something as unlawlful as murder will give him bad character, like a boy scout.

Batman cares nothing for developing a "bad character".Other wise he wouldnt allow himself to beat on others and be viewed as a criminal.

He even allowed and utilized the roumers that he would be capable of killing his enemies.

Vey much un-like a boy scout.

Batman continues dishing out these second chances cause he believes that his villains even the monsters are redeemable deep down inside. This is a naivety seen in boy scouts and the reason a lot of his rogues were given "tragic origins" is to further highlight that fact.

Batman knows that the Joker is beyond redemption.

A fact he's stated on quite a few occasions.

Even as recently as the Hush story are where Batman almost killed Joker.

He doesnt kill so as to not stoop to their level.

It has nothing to do with redemption.

I'm sure there are a few he has hope for but there are some he knows has no chance of turning.

And he still doent kill them.

You completely miss the point if you honestly think the intentions are that selfish. Batman is one of the most altruistic human beings in the DCU. The real reason he took these protege's under his wing is cause he wanted to help them cope with being different. I'll explain

Had he not taken Dick Grayson, Cassandra Cain and Jason Todd and instilled values in them and trained them to be part of a larger cause they probably would've became reckless and law breaking lost souls without the proper guidance. He trains or takes them under his wing to help them better themselves as people because they're on the edge between right and wrong

Cassandra is riddled with guilt cause of her past, she feels angry, confused and misguided over what her fate brought he when she encounters Batman he helps give her direction. Same with Dick and Jason. Now yes in the long run this also benefits his war on crime but first and foremost he bothers helping them because the right thing to do is to help others pick themselves up when they're down, that's as noble as it gets.

The only two that trully fit that bill are Cassandra and Jason.

Batman [Bruce] has helped many other kids by putting then in therapy and funding them threw schools.

If he trully wanted to help Dick,Tim and Barbra with out putting them in harms way ,thats the route he should have taken.

And that may have even helped with Jason.

Fact is the training and making them sidekicks furthers his golds.

It's part of his motivation.

He even stated that his training of Jason was mostly motivated by his missing Dick.

How "altruistic" is that?????

And the main reason he took on Tim as Robin was because he had become very reckless after the death of Jason.

Again not very altruistic.

Nope cause like Superman, Batman is in many ways a loner yet he has no problems with fellowship at all (his bat family, JLA, Outsiders) because he believes in the strength and will of others who also want to do the right thing. Like a boyscout.

To begin with Superman is hardly a loner.

He's a family man and has always dreamed of having a family of his own.

Batman is a loner who has a sub-concise need for a family.

And even thou he doesnt realize it, the need is strong.

He deniys himself the opertunities of true "blood" family by pushing away any woman wanting to start a relationship with him, but he surrounds himself with a substitute family.

He's unconvertible in teams and large groups but he can not deny the effectiveness of the team dynamic.

Its the main reason he's always in a leadership role.

Even when he's technically not the leader.Which is very evident in the current JLA team roster.

Which again is very much unlike a boy scout.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

And, for example, Judge Dredd is a much more ruthless character than Batman or Superman yet he stays TOTALLY within the law and makes moral speeches about this. Would you call him a "boy scout"?

No but the "LAW" of Dreds time is quite different then ours.

 

[Ziggyman]

The only laws that Supes breaks...Are anything that has to do with science!

 

[TruerToTheCore]

The only laws that Supes breaks...Are anything that has to do with science!

Eh. What about vigilantism and destroying private and public property?

 

[TruerToTheCore]

No but the "LAW" of Dreds time is quite different then ours.

Batman enforces the law. (Heck, he had a bagde once).

And no, the law in Judge Dredd's world is basically the same.

 

[Ziggyman]

Eh. What about vigilantism and destroying private and public property?

...Not so much...!

 

[TruerToTheCore]

...Not so much...!

why not?

 

[Cain]

No he believes in Justice even when its "in spite" of the law.

To him the law is a tool of justice and not an absolute.

Very "un-like" a "boy scout" who are taught to obey the law at any cost.

Yeah, ok. He would never reach out to Jim Gordon or Harvey Dent when they enter the picture unless he felt the law was an absolute. He upholds the law to the fullest extent that he could outside of the fact that in the modern age he fights crime without a badge. Something which BTW he sees as an obligation and neccessity since no one else stepped up against crime including those that are supposed to uphold the law. He'd help fight crime by other means otherwise

Batman cares nothing for developing a "bad character".Other wise he wouldnt allow himself to beat on others and be viewed as a criminal.

He even allowed and utilized the roumers that he would be capable of killing his enemies.

Vey much un-like a boy scout.

You're confusing movie Batman with comics Batman.

Batman knows that the Joker is beyond redemption.

A fact he's stated on quite a few occasions.

Even as recently as the Hush story are where Batman almost killed Joker.

He doesnt kill so as to not stoop to their level.

It has nothing to do with redemption.

I'm sure there are a few he has hope for but there are some he knows has no chance of turning.

And he still doent kill them.

OK I'd give you two more exceptions outside of the Joker they are Zsazz and Ra's Al Ghul and yes he doesn't kill them because he's not a criminal and has a strict moral code like a boy scout. Anyway I'd especially hightlight Joker and Al Ghul because they've proven that they're conscious of the choices that they make it's not beyond their control due to mental illness and emotional turmoil unlike the majority of his other rogues. Which is why they go to Arkham and not Blackgate so that they could get some help cause though they're misguided Batman realizes like him they're just products of their own personal tragedies.

Only difference is he didn't become a villain but they're in a place where they could get help instead of a maximum security lock up because they're not iredeemable in his eyes. Batman's even reflected on that at time and that's part of him always seeing the good and hope that lies beneath people. He knows no matter the bad they're also capable of doing the right thing. This is why he didn't really take issue with working a case with The Riddler though he still kept an eye on him, this is why he helped Poison Ivy when she was seemingly threatened.

This is why he trusted David Cain to turn himself into cops for framing Bruce Wayne instead of taking him in himself which he did. The best Batman writers that contributed to the modern age (Ie: Grant, Dixon, Starlin, Moench, Brubaker, Gale, Dini, Rucka) they understood this the rest well these cats just misunderstood the intents of TDKR and assumed that's how Batman should always be written. Unless they're random terrorists Batman has never thought them beyond redemption not his main rogues anyway.

The only two that trully fit that bill are Cassandra and Jason.

Batman [Bruce] has helped many other kids by putting then in therapy and funding them threw schools.

If he trully wanted to help Dick,Tim and Barbra with out putting them in harms way ,thats the route he should have taken.

And that may have even helped with Jason.

Newsflash he tried that route with Jason (post-crisis) and that didn't stick because the head mistress at the reform school was corrput and had the kids commiting crimes. So he took the kid in cause he felt he was better off with him since orphanages and reform schools were just as bad for him as living in the streets. He didn't have to do that but he's got his parents heart and he's as alturistic as they are he lives to help others. Oh and Tim and Barbara are in no way comparable to Dick. They chose their fates and Dick didn't that's why I didn't even bring them up.

Fact is the training and making them sidekicks furthers his golds.

It's part of his motivation.

Not it isn't part of his motivation though by default it does further his goals. Know why? cause he doesn't just go "hey I'm going to find me a young sidekick today". Dick and pre-crisis Jason was because of the sympathy he felt towards them as they were relections of himself. He knew the pain and anger they had and knew they were capable of using it to go down the wrong path. Instead he adopted them and eventually trained them because he believed in them and wanted to guide them so that they walk the right path. The creation of Robin in general was to make Batman a more humane and sympathetic character something that has stuck since the 40's.

He even stated that his training of Jason was mostly motivated by his missing Dick.

How "altruistic" is that?????

Post-crisis of course he missed that brotherly commoderie he had with Dick. He's only human but he also didn't have to take the kid off the streets, he could've easily turned his back on him but he welcomed him into his life & gave him a home and a family. How is that not altruistic? he also saw the kid was going to knock heads regardless so might as well help him channel that energy for good. He saw the potential in Jason to fight crime and Jason wanted to help him make Gotham a better place but at the end he really took him in because he felt sorry for Jason and out of the kindness of his heart wanted to help him.

And the main reason he took on Tim as Robin was because he had become very reckless after the death of Jason.

Again not very altruistic.

No initially he didn't even want Tim as a sidekick it did take convincing. Batman wasn't "reckless" people greatly overexaggerate that period in retrospect I mean that didn't even last a year and he wasn't all that sloppy. Batman was hurt because he's human that pain kind of threw of his focus but he was still Batman he was still holding his own and the last thing he wanted was to put another child in danger.

He took Tim in because he saw how bad Tim wanted to do good by Gotham when he proved himself to Batman, Alfred and Dick no other reason. He didn't have to train him he could've said no but he decided to do so in the end only because the kid did prove himself. So yes there's nothing altruistic on Batman's behalf about it cause Batman didn't choose to help Tim instead Tim was the altruist but again this is exactly why I didn't even bring him up in the first place so it is fairly moot.

To begin with Superman is hardly a loner.

He's a family man and has always dreamed of having a family of his own.

lol the same could be said about Batman. In the silver age Superman was ecstactic when Valor landed in Smallville cause he finally thought he encountered another kryptonian. He finally had someone that could truly relate with him. That didn't end up being true but then he found the bottle city of Kandor and deep down inside was joyful because he knew there were other kryptonians around. The catch is the city was minituarized but he would never stop until he restored it. Cause he yearns for that kinship with another of his kind which he could never have this is why he's lonely.

Modern continuity is adding these silver age elements back but even in that canon Superman was the only Kryptonian on earth for decades. There was always some fake kryptonians or clones around he had nobody he could truly relate with and that did make him lonely. Yes he had adoptive parents and yes Lois Lane and his co-workers are in his life but he's not human no matter how humane he may be in terms of personality they're mortal and eventually they will die and he will still be around. This is why when Kara showed up he was so happy.

He can't ever have a child with an earth woman and can't settle down because he's not human and the only one that could do what he does. That's the tragic irony of Superman and what makes him inspiring he's a loner but he isn't a sulker. He can't ever lead the life he wishes he could cause he has a greater calling and can't turn his back on the world.

Batman is a loner who has a sub-concise need for a family.

And even thou he doesnt realize it, the need is strong.

He is a loner but there's nothing for him to realize in terms of needing a family he realized this ages ago that's why he does have a family. Family isn't just your biological relatives.

He deniys himself the opertunities of true "blood" family by pushing away any woman wanting to start a relationship with him, but he surrounds himself with a substitute family.

Actually he doesn't really deny anything what's funny is that 90% of the time the women reject him. The only time he instigated a break up was when he couldn't open up to Vicki Vale about who he was. But that is something that he ended up regretting. That's also why he was so quick to tell Jezebel Jett about Batman and completely open up to her he wants a relationship and this time he feels he may finally get it, their is no denial.

He's unconvertible in teams and large groups but he can not deny the effectiveness of the team dynamic.

Its the main reason he's always in a leadership role.

Even when he's technically not the leader.Which is very evident in the current JLA team roster.

Which again is very much unlike a boy scout.

Huh?!? leadership skills are an attribute of a boy scout. Another boy scout trait is that he's also never been really difficult with his teams. Up until Tower of Babel anyway which is one of the reasons some of the fanbase hates what was done with Bats in the late 90's Batman had always believed in his teammates and had great respect for them (Ie: Metamorpho and Black Lightning). He never tried to overshadow them and played his position when it comes to JLA I can't speak on it now cause I dropped the recent volume a year ago but in the past he's always been "chummy" with his peers.

From Superman to Wonder Woman who he greatly respects to Aquaman, Plastic Man and Jonn Jonnz. Hell even when he was by default the defacto leauge leader during the JLI era he never disrespected Manhunter or Black Canary in their co-leader roles he always treated them as equals. He also didn't shy from ever saying how he admired Red Tornado or Mister Miracle during those days.

Even when he knocked out Guy Gardner he still felt that Gardner was still a worthy member of the team. This is why Tower of Babel came as a shock not just to the characters in the story but to many readers (I liked it by the way) cause up until that point Batman had never really been this cranky distant conspirer when it came to how he dealt with his peers.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Batman enforces the law. (Heck, he had a bagde once).

We've been talking about the modern interpretations of each character.

I freely admit that there was a period in Batmans publication history when he could have been considered a boy scout, a good father figure or a great role model.

But we havent been speaking of the Batman of the late 40's,50's and early 60's.

We've been talking about the modern Batman.

And no, the law in Judge Dredd's world is basically the same.

A world where Street Judges act as police, judge, jury and, if necessary, on-the-spot executioner?????

A world where 'deaths while evading capture are numerous????

A world where the crime of "Jay walking" is punisable by 20 years in jail????

Sorry but the law in dredds world is far sterner then in ours.

Yeah, ok. He would never reach out to Jim Gordon or Harvey Dent when they enter the picture unless he felt the law was an absolute.

I dont see how you would come to that conclusion.

I dont see how Batman's trust in Gordan or any other law enforcement official means that Batman believes in what the law stands for.

Batman has said it many times, and it shows in his dealings with the ploice, he's not about the law.....he's about Justice.

If it so happends that he and the police meat on good terms then great.But if they are at odds then so be it.

You're confusing movie Batman with comics Batman.

Nope this is coming right out of the comics written since the early 70's.

OK I'd give you two more exceptions outside of the Joker they are Zsazz and Ra's Al Ghul and yes he doesn't kill them because he's not a criminal and has a strict moral code like a boy scout.

He has a moral code,maybe like a boy scout, but the means by which he achieves his golds is very much "un-like" a boy scout.

His methods disqualify him from the description of boy scout.

Anyway I'd especially hightlight Joker and Al Ghul because they've proven that they're conscious of the choices that they make it's not beyond their control due to mental illness and emotional turmoil unlike the majority of his other rogues. Which is why they go to Arkham and not Blackgate so that they could get some help cause though they're misguided Batman realizes like him they're just products of their own personal tragedies.

Only difference is he didn't become a villain but they're in a place where they could get help instead of a maximum security lock up because they're not iredeemable in his eyes.

Where any of Gothams criminals end up has absolutely nothing to do with how Batman views them.

That choice is made by the corts,judges,doctors and the people of Gotham.

Batman's even reflected on that at time and that's part of him always seeing the good and hope that lies beneath people. He knows no matter the bad they're also capable of doing the right thing. This is why he didn't really take issue with working a case with The Riddler though he still kept an eye on him, this is why he helped Poison Ivy when she was seemingly threatened.

This is why he trusted David Cain to turn himself into cops for framing Bruce Wayne instead of taking him in himself which he did. The best Batman writers that contributed to the modern age (Ie: Grant, Dixon, Starlin, Moench, Brubaker, Gale, Dini, Rucka) they understood this the rest well these cats just misunderstood the intents of TDKR and assumed that's how Batman should always be written. Unless they're random terrorists Batman has never thought them beyond redemption not his main rogues anyway.

Well we seem to have a difference of opinion on what lies underneath.

Me I see him giving anyone the benefit of the doubt while you see it as some deep seeded desire to want to see the best in people.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Newsflash he tried that route with Jason (post-crisis) and that didn't stick because the head mistress at the reform school was corrput and had the kids commiting crimes.

To me that wasnt much of a try.

And like I said, his missing Dick clouded his judgment.

So he took the kid in cause he felt he was better off with him since orphanages and reform schools were just as bad for him as living in the streets. He didn't have to do that but he's got his parents heart and he's as alturistic as they are he lives to help others. Oh and Tim and Barbara are in no way comparable to Dick. They chose their fates and Dick didn't that's why I didn't even bring them up.

Batmans a control freak.

If he didnt want them there or felt that they didnt fit into his over all golds he would put a stop to there actions.

Not it isn't part of his motivation though by default it does further his goals. Know why? cause he doesn't just go "hey I'm going to find me a young sidekick today". Dick and pre-crisis Jason was because of the sympathy he felt towards them as they were relections of himself. He knew the pain and anger they had and knew they were capable of using it to go down the wrong path. Instead he adopted them and eventually trained them because he believed in them and wanted to guide them so that they walk the right path. The creation of Robin in general was to make Batman a more humane and sympathetic character something that has stuck since the 40's.

With some of that I can agree.

Post-crisis of course he missed that brotherly commoderie he had with Dick. He's only human but he also didn't have to take the kid off the streets, he could've easily turned his back on him but he welcomed him into his life & gave him a home and a family. How is that not altruistic? he also saw the kid was going to knock heads regardless so might as well help him channel that energy for good. He saw the potential in Jason to fight crime and Jason wanted to help him make Gotham a better place but at the end he really took him in because he felt sorry for Jason and out of the kindness of his heart wanted to help him.

Which was a double edge sword.

And I'm not saying that he wasnt kind hearted.But you cant call his actions "Selfless" since there was a "selfish" motivation in his actions as well as being kind.

No initially he didn't even want Tim as a sidekick it did take convincing. Batman wasn't "reckless" people greatly overexaggerate that period in retrospect

I'm not really talking about "the period" in time but in the story arc that lead to Tim being made the new Robin, Batman was indeed being sloopy and reckless.

lol the same could be said about Batman.

Yes it can.

But as I pointed out to "Truertothecore" we're talking about the modern batman.

Actually he doesn't really deny anything what's funny is that 90% of the time the women reject him.

Because he sabotages every relationship with out even knowing it.

That's also why he was so quick to tell Jezebel Jett about Batman and completely open up to her he wants a relationship and this time he feels he may finally get it, their is no denial.

And we'll see how that works out.

She's been hinting that remaining Batman is not the best idea.

If she doent turn out to be a bad guy I pretty sure that she wont be able to cope with Bruce being Batman.

And what woman really could.Only one inside his world would stand a chance.

So in opening up to "JET" he laid the seeds of the destruction of the relationship.

Huh?!? leadership skills are an attribute of a boy scout.

Never said they werent.

And you missed the point.

A boy scout takes orders from any fairly appointed leader.

Batman will only due so if he agrees with the order.

Look this all breaks down to the fact that we disagree on what really drives Batman.

You feel that since he's goals are to help others that the term "Boy scout" applys.

I feel that the methods he takes to reach those goals disqualifies him from being called a boy scout.

So for me its like saying "he's not wrong for reasons he does what he does, but he's wrong for how he does it".

I dont see the point of continuing to disagree.

One thing we do agree on is that being called a "BOY SCOUT" should not be thought of as a put down.