Why is making a good Superman movie so hard?

[Superchan]

DC already tried looking at Donner's version of Superman back when they asked Bryan Singer to direct Superman Returns. Fans hated that film so that led DC to reboot Superman into the character that we know today.

You mean the mopey, emo, dialogue challenged superman who creepily spied on Lois and her family?..........Yeah THAT wasn't Donner's superman but rather Bryan Singer's superman set in the Donner verse i.e. Singer was as clueless as Snyder was hence why they both failed miserably.
People didn't reject that movie because it tied to STM but rather because that movie was a boring mess that featured a cardboard cutup of what the character of superman/CK was supposed to be.

 

[BH/HHH]

I hate when people say that Singers Superman failed cause it was Donnerverse. It really wasn't, it wanted so desperately to be but as Superchan says Singer was clueless. The Superman in that does not feel at all like a continuation of Reeve's Superman. So when people say they tried to go back to that Superman send it didn't work I'm always baffled that they actually think that's what Singer achieved.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm not a fan of Donner's Superman, but even I can admit SR did him no justice. I remember Roger Ebert referring to Routh's Superman as a monosyllabic bore, or something like that. And yep, that about sums him up (which is a criticism of the material, not Routh). Donner's Superman could never be described that way.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm not a fan of Donner's Superman, but even I can admit SR did him no justice. I remember Roger Ebert referring to Routh's Superman as a monosyllabic bore, or something like that. And yep, that about sums him up (which is a criticism of the material, not Routh). Donner's Superman could never be described that way.

Yeah that's a great explanation. Routh got short changed big time. It's like when I see Tyler Hoechlin's Supeman, he gets to be Superman, gets to put himself into the role. If Routh had been allowed to do that he could have been as good as Tyler's ended up been.

Infact it's funny cause I remember writing a post years after the two parter about how the first two episodes of Supergirl season 2 guest starring Hoechlin's Superman showed us what Singer should have done with the character. They were able to pay homage to the Donnerverse succesfully.

 

[STARMAN]

Superman Returns has the same back story as the Donner Superman but none of the charm.

 

[BH/HHH]

Superman Returns has the same back story as the Donner Superman but none of the charm.

Yes and that's the big issue. I remember me and mother watching Superman the Movie, my brother hadn't Sen it since he was a kid and he'd watching (and hated) Superman Returns like a week before. He turned to me watching and said that Returns didn't have the charm of this film. That was the first time I'd been able to put my finger on the film's big issue.

 

[MaceB]

There are several things that make Superman a difficult character to write for:

- He's overpowered. The physical challenges for him are either dangerously difficult because they can destroy whole city zones or conversely not a legitimate threat at all.

- His disguise is dated and farcical. The idea that no one would recognize Clark's alter ego in this day and age is just too big a pill to swallow.

- Superman was the first and so the most is expected of him.

- Who Superman is and how he behaves is a hazy topic, due to multiple interpretations of him over the years. No matter what, there will always be loud dissenters who say that you didn't get Superman right. "No! That's not Superman, he's more joyful/bada$$/humerous/pensive/authoritarian/boy scout/gentle/kind".. whatever.

- Superman's motivations are also, hazy at best. Why does Clark put himself at risk of danger day in and day out? What does he want? What are his weaknesses outside of Kryptonite? What is Superman's philosophy of Justice? I bet if you asked 100 people, you'd get hundreds of different answers.

- The result is that artists usually veer towards the goody/goody boyscout character.. because that's the only thing that's really agreed upon, and Superman starts to seem kind of old fashioned, next to Batman or this new rocker Aquaman. People want edgy and spontaneous... not necessarily the quiet hero who always measures twice before he cuts.

 

[Herofan]

- His disguise is dated and farcical. The idea that no one would recognize Clark's alter ego in this day and age is just too big a pill to swallow.

I thought it was a good change in MoS to have Lois find out his identity early on, the idea that even with that level of friendship there wouldn't be recognition is both really unbelievable and dated/already-done.

- Who Superman is and how he behaves is a hazy topic, due to multiple interpretations of him over the years. No matter what, there will always be loud dissenters who say that you didn't get Superman right. "No! That's not Superman, he's more joyful/bada$$/humerous/pensive/authoritarian/boy scout/gentle/kind".. whatever.

Yep, past interpretations have been pretty different and a lot of people strongly attached to one.

- Superman's motivations are also, hazy at best. Why does Clark put himself at risk of danger day in and day out? What does he want? What are his weaknesses outside of Kryptonite? What is Superman's philosophy of Justice? I bet if you asked 100 people, you'd get hundreds of different answers.

Yeah, that's particularly varied and controversial. And it's particularly a problem if Superman thinks his motivations are self-evident and so doesn't spend much time explaining them.

 

[MaceB]

I thought it was a good change in MoS to have Lois find out his identity early on, the idea that even with that level of friendship there wouldn't be recognition is both really unbelievable and dated/already-done.

I did too! I like the idea that Clark's friends aren't oblivious to his alter ego, but in fact, they're the ones stopping his alter ego from being discovered. When strangers are like, "hey, where's Clark?" His friends are like, "Oh I asked him to get me this really awesome chai tea downtown. He'll be back in a sec." or whatever.

 

[FunkMiller]

There are several things that make Superman a difficult character to write for:

- He's overpowered. The physical challenges for him are either dangerously difficult because they can destroy whole city zones or conversely not a legitimate threat at all.

.

Yep. You certainly can’t write compelling or good stories for godlike superheroes, who can shrug off having a mountain thrown at them, or are so strong that very little can threaten them.

 

[MaceB]

Haha, true. Marvel shows us that it is possible.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I think a big reason that Singer and Snyder's Clarks failed is because they didn't feel like real people.

As much as Snyder wanted to forget previous incarnations, his Clark still sometimes feels like a guy from a different era to me.

 

[MaceB]

I think a big reason that Singer and Snyder's Clarks failed is because they didn't feel like real people.

As much as Snyder wanted to forget previous incarnations, his Clark still sometimes feels like a guy from a different era to me.

How can Clark feel like a real person when we're too afraid to develop him? Ask yourself a few things:

What is Clark's favorite past time? Does he prefer living in the city, or is he a country boy at heart?

Why did Clark decide to be a journalist? Does he even like the profession? What does he like most?

What is Clark's biggest fear?

What is Clark's biggest weakness?

What is Clark's biggest strength, besides his powers?

Audiences and writers seem afraid to answer these questions. So it's no wonder that Clark comes off as an empty vessel that stalls until Superman can come out to play. That's not a problem with Snyder's particular take. That's a problem with how the character is represented these days as a whole.

 

[misslane38]

How can Clark feel like a real person when we're too afraid to develop him? Ask yourself a few things:

All of these questions are easily answered by paying attention to context clues in the DCEU films:

What is Clark's favorite past time? Does he prefer living in the city, or is he a country boy at heart?

While we don't know Clark's favorite past time, we know he likes watching football (he watched a game in MoS and covered sports for the DP), cooking (he cooked dinner and breakfast for Lois), and science (one of the most prominent photos of young Clark is with his father at a science fair).

Clark is a country boy at heart. When he's troubled, Clark seeks solace at home or in quiet places. He's traveled a lot and lived in the big city, but it's obvious he's most at peace when he's home.

Why did Clark decide to be a journalist? Does he even like the profession? What does he like most?

Clark chose to be a journalist because it was a way for him to stay close to important information and activity. He was inspired by Lois Lane. Does he like it? I think he respects the power of it; he respects journalists with integrity like Lois. He certainly believes journalism can be a force for good, which is what he likes most about it.

What is Clark's biggest fear?

A life without purpose and acceptance. Before his father died, Clark was adamant that he wanted to do something useful with his life. He found purpose in helping people but feared rejection from those who would not embrace the help he had to offer because of who and what he is. He fears that the thing that gives him purpose (Superman) is a fool's dream that does more harm than good. Lois was the first to have faith in Superman and continued to believe in his purpose no matter what; thus, losing Lois is emblematic of Clark's biggest fear.

What is Clark's biggest weakness?

As with most well-written characters, his greatest weakness is the inverse of his greatest strength. Clark's relationships are a source of strength for him, so they are also his greatest weakness.

What is Clark's biggest strength, besides his powers?

His ability to take a leap of faith on people, especially bullies. He creates his greatest allies by turning the other cheek, showing mercy, and forgiving with grace.

 

[Dark Raven]

They should take all the previous elements that have worked and combine that into a new movie.

Superman is meant to inspire hope. The MOS and BvS version does not do that. His version inspires fear or awe but not hope. He is more of an Übermensch than a Superman. You can't have a story about this hero where everyone reveres this alien as almost a god and then builds a statue to him, while at the same time he seems so transcendent.

If the MOS version had landed in Soviet Russia in the 1950s, that might actually fit with that portrayal. Even the statue seems like one of these Communist statues like those of Lenin or Stalin.

Superman Returns was so tedious and dreary and Clark/Superman was too emo. As others have said, it had none of the charm of the Donner Superman. It also felt tired.

Hoechlin's Superman seemed to pay more homage to the Donner Superman in the short few episodes we saw him in than Singer's Superman ever could manage in his whole movie. And yet, Hoechlin's Superman didn't feel tired or stale. It captured the charm but moved things forward and felt like a progression. It wasn't like a repeat performance or imitation.

For the Superman side of things, they need to take inspiration from Reeve and Hoechlin. Make Superman fun and full of hope. Everyone should be inspired by him but not revere or worship him. You could tell Cavill's Superman was clearly uncomfortable by it, but he let it slide and didn't say anything. In fact, he barely said anything at all.

Reeve's and Hoechlin's Superman would more likely speak up and show their humility. They'd say "please, don't bow down to me or build a statue. I'm just one of you and someone doing their job. I don't deserve this kind of praise. Save it for the real heroes - the moms and dads, the teachers, the police, the firemen, the doctors and nurses etc."

On the Clark side of things, they should take a leaf out of Lois and Clark. That worked well and people enjoyed it at the time. It also developed Clark's life as a reporter and his personal life too. He wasn't as much of a caricature as the Reeve portrayal.

They can have some awkward or nerdy aspects like how Hoechlin plays him, but I think keep that balance. Somewhere between Hoechlin and Cain rather than the bumbling journalist that Reeve was.

The most well-received Superman versions by the general audience are Reeve, Cain and Hoechlin in my opinion. They are the ones with the most hope, charm and lightness of touch. A new Superman movie should look to these inspirations rather than Superman Returns or Man of Steel.

 

[misslane38]

Superman is meant to inspire hope. The MOS and BvS version does not do that. His version inspires fear or awe but not hope. He is more of an Übermensch than a Superman. You can't have a story about this hero where everyone reveres this alien as almost a god and then builds a statue to him, while at the same time he seems so transcendent.

How can you tell that the Reeve version of Superman inspires hope? The interesting thing about the statue in BvS is that is the antithesis of the one most often used in comics. Here's how Superman is honored in the comics:

Here's the BvS statue:

To me, there's a clear difference. The former is reverent and proud: it's a statue all about Superman. The latter, however, is humble and equanimous: Superman kneels before a memorial to humanity's sacrifice.

If the MOS version had landed in Soviet Russia in the 1950s, that might actually fit with that portrayal. Even the statue seems like one of these Communist statues like those of Lenin or Stalin.

Lenin:

Stalin:

Which Superman statue from above looks more like these statues? Not only is the BvS statue of a more populist and humble nature, the movie ends by saying that if you seek his monument, look around you, which only heightens and emphasizes the difference between DCEU Superman iconography and despot iconography.

 

[MaceB]

All of these questions are easily answered by paying attention to context clues in the DCEU films:

Maybe to you... but to the average viewer, Clark is a vacuous character who's personal character attributes are vague and often put second to his physical strengths/weaknesses. Just because you can decipher answers that work for you doesn't mitigate my point for everyone else.

 

[Dark Raven]

That Superman statue in the comics was never in the movies though. And it's not about how the pose is. It's the fact that there even is one in the first place. It's not like if there were the comic Superman statue that it would make it any different.

And it's also how Cavill's Superman was standing surrounded by people revering him while he looked extremely uncomfortable but didn't say anything.

 

[ManWithNoName18]

Yep. You certainly can’t write compelling or good stories for godlike superheroes, who can shrug off having a mountain thrown at them, or are so strong that very little can threaten them.

I do feel as though this can be done in a way that makes it challenging to work with other heroes in a team environment.

JL is a pretty good example, an amnesic and confused Superman is still strong enough to fight off the entire league. And then easily fights Steppenwolf when the rest of the league was having trouble.

 

[misslane38]

Maybe to you... but to the average viewer, Clark is a vacuous character who's personal character attributes are vague and often put second to his physical strengths/weaknesses. Just because you can decipher answers that work for you doesn't mitigate my point for everyone else.

Agree to disagree. I don't believe Clark Kent is as vacuous or mysterious as you're presenting him as, and I don't believe viewers are as clueless as you assume they are.

That Superman statue in the comics was never in the movies though. And it's not about how the pose is. It's the fact that there even is one in the first place. It's not like if there were the comic Superman statue that it would make it any different.

The point is such statues have been a part of Superman canon for awhile (in comics and animation), and no one views those versions of Superman or his characterization the way you are suggesting someone would.

And it's also how Cavill's Superman was standing surrounded by people revering him while he looked extremely uncomfortable but didn't say anything.

He's no different than other Supermen who, in films and TV, have been in the presence of fans like that and either said nothing or played into it by taking photos and/or signing autographs.

At least in the DCEU, we see he is uncomfortable and willing to submit to human authority (attends the hearing to answer to the public), and what it means to be that kind of hero is explored with the statue vandalized and ultimately destroyed during the Doomsday fight, concluding with a mournful public proclaiming that they are the monument. BvS deconstructs that which prior canon in the larger Superman mythos had created. Your analysis seems to disregard that and most Superman canon and context in favor of what can best be described as nitpicking.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Maybe to you... but to the average viewer, Clark is a vacuous character who's personal character attributes are vague and often put second to his physical strengths/weaknesses. Just because you can decipher answers that work for you doesn't mitigate my point for everyone else.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[misslane38]

I couldn’t agree more.

One of the core rules of storytelling is show don't tell. Often storytelling relies on both, and the DCEU is no different. Using both what was shown onscreen and said onscreen, are you honestly saying you can't answer any of the questions posed about Clark Kent's character. Take journalism, for instance. Doesn't the film have Clark say why he is seeking out the job at the end of MOS and explore what he values about it in BvS?

Also, apply these standards to other characters that one might presumably not describe as "vacuous" from other comic book films by asking similar questions of them. If you find yourself with about the same amount of information (after a comparable amount of films) and using the same sources of information (e.g. context clues, lines of dialogue), then what does that say about your assessment?

 

[Vaibow]

I think people are thinking way too hard about this.

It is both highly complex, when you break it down, yet really simple in essence.

Clark Kent was raised out in a rural area, on a farm. A reality close knit, old school kinda town - we all low the type and and we can all relate to it - it's not an alien concept. He is also, morally, a very good, kind and compassionate person who puts others before him.

He has these amazing powers and knowledge that he is not from here, but, like the rest of us, he is pretty much helpless to finding out more.

He decides to use his powers to good use - stopping crime, injustice and helping where he can in natural disasters, environmental impacts etc.

How can he do that without solely relying on his super strength and powers? reporting!

He goes into a career in journalism and reporting - he is quality at it and his reporting is making a difference.

He knows Superman isn't the answer, but it can inspire help people towards an ideal.

Sure, his life will be different - his close friends at smallville all know the truth, but, the bigger picture, he will need an alter ego - what does he do? decide to make himself subtle, which naturally lines u with his character and make superman this bold, colourful persona that can help where clark cannot.

Jimmy is a close friend and the two are almost like college buddies - would jimmy find out? Eventually...

Would lois warm to clark straight away? probably not, would clark like her? 100%. It's the classic coming of age story.

So what a director needs to focus on, is the warmth and character of clark, in his own element - the fun we can have seeing him dart off and foiling a bank robbery, saving a family from a house fire, miners down a well - him talking about it back at smallville.

Honestly, i know social media is huge these days, but Superman and his heroics wouldn't be a daily thing, sure, he can be around daily - swooping through the sky, but would he be on camera, clearly, so much that it's obvious it's clark - i don't think so.

So, let's use someone like Wayne Rooney - in England everyone knows him, he goes out to washington dc and goes about town, no one bats an eye lid - sure they have seen him on tv, adverts etc he has had 15 years exposure but to the general public they rent looking for him.
So if the director handles it that people aren't looking for an alter ego, if clark is just one of the guy at best, i think it could be a beautiful movie.

I think of it like this, As Superman, he is Thor. As Clark, he is Steve Rogers. At the planet, he is Bruce Banner.

 

[misslane38]

I think people are thinking way too hard about this.

It is both highly complex, when you break it down, yet really simple in essence.

Clark Kent was raised out in a rural area, on a farm. A reality close knit, old school kinda town - we all low the type and and we can all relate to it - it's not an alien concept. He is also, morally, a very good, kind and compassionate person who puts others before him.

He has these amazing powers and knowledge that he is not from here, but, like the rest of us, he is pretty much helpless to finding out more.

He decides to use his powers to good use - stopping crime, injustice and helping where he can in natural disasters, environmental impacts etc.

How can he do that without solely relying on his super strength and powers? reporting!

He goes into a career in journalism and reporting - he is quality at it and his reporting is making a difference.

He knows Superman isn't the answer, but it can inspire help people towards an ideal.

Sure, his life will be different - his close friends at smallville all know the truth, but, the bigger picture, he will need an alter ego - what does he do? decide to make himself subtle, which naturally lines u with his character and make superman this bold, colourful persona that can help where clark cannot.

Jimmy is a close friend and the two are almost like college buddies - would jimmy find out? Eventually...

Would lois warm to clark straight away? probably not, would clark like her? 100%. It's the classic coming of age story.

So what a director needs to focus on, is the warmth and character of clark, in his own element - the fun we can have seeing him dart off and foiling a bank robbery, saving a family from a house fire, miners down a well - him talking about it back at smallville.

Honestly, i know social media is huge these days, but Superman and his heroics wouldn't be a daily thing, sure, he can be around daily - swooping through the sky, but would he be on camera, clearly, so much that it's obvious it's clark - i don't think so.

So, let's use someone like Wayne Rooney - in England everyone knows him, he goes out to washington dc and goes about town, no one bats an eye lid - sure they have seen him on tv, adverts etc he has had 15 years exposure but to the general public they rent looking for him.
So if the director handles it that people aren't looking for an alter ego, if clark is just one of the guy at best, i think it could be a beautiful movie.

I think of it like this, As Superman, he is Thor. As Clark, he is Steve Rogers. At the planet, he is Bruce Banner.

All of the above is great except for one thing: you don't take into account how humanity would respond to someone like Superman or how Clark's life, choices, and personality would be shaped by his relationship with humanity. So you make Superman into simple recipe by eliminating the critical ingredient that adds complexity to the Superman myth. Superman's relationship with humanity, his own humanity, and humanity's relationship to him represents the core conflict of his myth. It is the source of his greatest fears, strengths, and weaknesses. It is foundation of every important theme in the Superman story.

 

[MaceB]

All of the above is great except for one thing: you don't take into account how humanity would respond to someone like Superman or how Clark's life, choices, and personality would be shaped by his relationship with humanity. So you make Superman into simple recipe by eliminating the critical ingredient that adds complexity to the Superman myth. Superman's relationship with humanity, his own humanity, and humanity's relationship to him represents the core conflict of his myth. It is the source of his greatest fears, strengths, and weaknesses. It is foundation of every important theme in the Superman story.

I go back to one of my original points about why Superman is hard to write for: everyone thinks they own him, so even if you made the perfect Superman movie, you'd have fans who say, "No, how could you miss this!" "That was essential to Superman's character!"

The reason why there are a thousand and one interpretations of what Superman "must" be... is because there isn't one definitive interpretation of him so far. If you asked 100 hundred people about Superman's most important qualities.... I doubt that his interaction with the world would be in the top 10. And that's not saying you're wrong. You just demonstrated the point is all. When Superman has to be all things to all people, he ends up being nothing to anyone.

What is Superman's core attribute? What's the 1-2 sentence summary of Superman's personality that everyone can agree on?