Why is making a good Superman movie so hard?

[flickchick85]

Well, firstly not being embarrassed about who your characters are would be a good step.

Every single one of WB’s worst moves have been about trying to change their superheroes from the comic book source. Trying to ‘grow them up’ or ‘make them cooler’. That’s why Snyder’s characterisations were so awful. Singer’s too for that matter. And Campbell’s. And Ayer’s.

There's definitely some truth to this, imo. I remember hearing from some blogger about how little WB thought of their DC animation department based on a firsthand account, and I feel like that attitude carries over a bit to how they see their DC characters. It seems like the suits look down on them compared to some of their other properties (like Harry Potter). Like, they get that they are money makers, but they don't see their value, if that makes any sense. And so their natural instincts are to find a filmmaker who will make them something people can take seriously, instead of understanding why people already do. I think we lucked out that Patty Jenkins, while a serious and acclaimed filmmaker who therefore looked good on paper to the WB, also happened to see the value in Wonder Woman exactly as she already was.

 

[2kt09]

Well, I don't think WB appreciates that comic book movies can be many things. The superhero genre isn't even really a genre I guess. It's more like a mode.. it's above genre. Because there can be Noir Detective superhero films, cop superhero films, western superhero films, etc. The thing that TDK did so well is that it was a legit, good police drama with superhero elements. Nolan focused on making the writing and the plot work. He didn't approach it with this 'by the numbers' mentality that WB does. "Oh this is a Batman movie - there's gotta be a big superhero fight at the end, and where's the love interest, and can we give the character multiple suits to sell more toys?" Now, a Superhero movie can do all those things, but it's how you do it. WB seems to think that it doesn't matter - just throw all the ingredients in the pot, let them simmer for 2 hours, and boom - box office success.

What? These are among the most comic-booky superhero movies out there.
From an alien invasion epic to a sociopolitical thriller to an urban fantasy to a disney princess war movie.
They get the genre just fine after years of mostly Batman & Vertigo adaptations.

Every single one of WB’s worst moves have been about trying to change their superheroes from the comic book source. Trying to ‘grow them up’ or ‘make them cooler’. That’s why Snyder’s characterisations were so awful. Singer’s too for that matter. And Campbell’s. And Ayer’s.

I don't know who Campbell is.

 

[MaceB]

What? These are among the most comic-booky superhero movies out there.
From an alien invasion epic to a sociopolitical thriller to an urban fantasy to a disney princess war movie.
They get the genre just fine after years of mostly Batman & Vertigo adaptations.

I think that's part of the problem. WB focuses on trying to make the movies "comic booky" enough. The end result is that they seem cartoonish, like BvS and Justice League did. They don't have confidence enough in the genre that it can be multiple things. A Superman movie doesn't need to be a gigantic alien battle... it can be, but that's not what's important. What's important is the drama. And they don't seem to get that. Their record with DC movies is moderate to poor at best.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't know who Campbell is.

Green Lantern. Where they tried to take the most old school, gung-ho, "point me toward the fight!" style of hero in Hal Jordan, and turn him into a reluctant hero while trying to make him a Tony Stark-type personality (who also was NOT a reluctant hero, but I digress).

 

[STARMAN]

The attempts at modernizing Superman should be organic. Not forced. That's how we ended up with the kid in Superman Returns. I read an interview where the filmmakers said they wanted Superman dealing with modern problems that people can relate to so they gave him a kid out of wedlock.

 

[2kt09]

Green Lantern. Where they tried to take the most old school, gung-ho, "point me toward the fight!" style of hero in Hal Jordan, and turn him into a reluctant hero while trying to make him a Tony Stark-type personality (who also was NOT a reluctant hero, but I guess they missed that part too).

Oh.

I think that's part of the problem. WB focuses on trying to make the movies "comic booky" enough. The end result is that they seem cartoonish, like BvS and Justice League did. They don't have confidence enough in the genre that it can be multiple things. A Superman movie doesn't need to be a gigantic alien battle... it can be, but that's not what's important. What's important is the drama. And they don't seem to get that. Their record with DC movies is moderate to poor at best.

JL isn't any less cartoonish than the films in its purview. It's just not a good movie.
BvS is multiple things. I simplified its "drama" to what stands out the most.
As long as they don't dip back into Catwoman, GL, Jonah Hex, Superman Returns territory...it's all gucci.

The attempts at modernizing Superman should be organic. Not forced. That's how we ended up with the kid in Superman Returns. I read an interview where the filmmakers said they wanted Superman dealing with modern problems that people can relate to so they gave him a kid out of wedlock.

Ok, but this time the kid will be like in Rebirth.

 

[misslane38]

I think what gets lost in all of this is that when you hear people say WB should respect and understand the source material (e.g. the comics) and hire directors and writers who can do the same, the truth is that the comics are not only inconsistent in what they portray but comics are equally as lost on how to write for Superman. I've been reading Superman comics for over a decade, and they are awful 90 percent of the time.

 

[flickchick85]

I think what gets lost in all of this is that when you hear people say WB should respect and understand the source material (e.g. the comics) and hire directors and writers who can do the same, the truth is that the comics are not only inconsistent in what they portray but comics are equally as lost on how to write for Superman. I've been reading Superman comics for over a decade, and they are awful 90 percent of the time.

Agreed, but if you Google "best superman stories," you'll get a lot of varied lists, but you'll start to see a lot of the same titles that appear across them all. That should give anyone a good consensus as to where start when finding the core appeals of the character, imo. The Supes stories that have resonated with the most people.

 

[misslane38]

Agreed, but if you Google "best superman stories," you'll get a lot of varied lists, but you'll start to see a lot of the same titles that appear across them all. That should give anyone a good consensus as to where start when finding the core appeals of the character, imo. The Supes stories that have resonated with the most people.

Most of those stories are either horrible dystopian elseworlds (e.g. Kingdom Come) or do not lend themselves to cinematic adaptation due to their episodic nature (e.g. All Star Superman). Many of them are also origin stories or stories that are about the twilight or end of Superman's life/career. If you Google "best Superman stories," very few of the stories listed are easily adapted.

 

[flickchick85]

Most of those stories are either horrible dystopian elseworlds (e.g. Kingdom Come) or do not lend themselves to cinematic adaptation due to their episodic nature (e.g. All Star Superman). Many of them are also origin stories or stories that are about the twilight or end of Superman's life/career. If you Google "best Superman stories," very few of the stories listed immediately are easily adapted.

You misunderstand - I'm not saying to adapt ANY of those stories, I'm saying if one were to look for the appeal of the character, the qualities essential to maintain when translating him to screen, it's there in those stories. The ones I see always popping up on those lists - All-Star Superman, Superman For All Seasons, Superman: Birthright, Secret Identity, Up, Up and Away, For the Man Who Has Everything, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and The American Way?, Brainiac, Secret Origin, Morrison's Action run - if you look for common threads in those stories, you can easily get a good picture about the aspects of this character that appeal most to people and those should be your priorities in translation. Like you said, there are a couple of dystopian Elseworlds that crop up like Kingdom Come and Red Son, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. And even then, if you read WHY those appear on the list instead of just taking the dystopian/deconstruction take and running with it, you'll see those qualities and appeal still factor into those as well.

 

[misslane38]

You misunderstand - I'm not saying to adapt ANY of those stories, I'm saying if one were to look for the appeal of the character, the qualities essential to maintain when translating him to screen, it's there in those stories. The ones I see always popping up on those lists - All-Star Superman, Superman For All Seasons, Superman: Birthright, Secret Identity, Up, Up and Away, For the Man Who Has Everything, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and The American Way?, Brainiac, Secret Origin, Morrison's Action run - if you look for common threads in those stories, you can easily get a good picture about the aspects of this character that appeal most to people and those should be your priorities in translation. Like you said, there are a couple of dystopian Elseworlds that crop up like Kingdom Come and Red Son, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. And even then, if you read WHY those appear on the list instead of just taking the dystopian/deconstruction take and running with it, you'll see those qualities and appeal still factor into those as well.

I did not misunderstand you. I'm saying that the context of those stories is precisely what facilitates those appealing character traits, or by contrast, otherwise unappealing traits seem appealing because of the context of the stories. More importantly, I know full well that when appealing elements of comic book stories are infused into live action characters, it is a gamble whether the appeal will translate. It rarely does. I've seen countless elements from beloved Superman stories integrated into modern Superman adaptations only for hard core comic fans to respond as if those elements either aren't there at all or are no longer appealing. Superman fans, especially those who longingly cling to the comics like unimpeachable sacred texts, are among the most hypocritical fans I've ever encountered.

 

[MaceB]

Superman fans, especially those who longingly cling to the comics like unimpeachable sacred texts, are among the most hypocritical fans I've ever encountered.

Amen on that one.

 

[FunkMiller]

This has been posted before, but watch it right to the end...

 

[flickchick85]

I did not misunderstand you. I'm saying that the context of those stories is precisely what facilitates those appealing character traits, or by contrast, otherwise unappealing traits seem appealing because of the context of the stories. More importantly, I know full well that when appealing elements of comic book stories are infused into live action characters, it is a gamble whether the appeal will translate. It rarely does. I've seen countless elements from beloved Superman stories integrated into modern Superman adaptations only for hard core comic fans to respond as if those elements either aren't there at all or are no longer appealing. Superman fans, especially those who longingly cling to the comics like unimpeachable sacred texts, are among the most hypocritical fans I've ever encountered.

Can't say I agree. Sure, if you pick and choose random elements, but those stories have repeated and common elements (his optimism, his belief in people, the importance he places on family, generally light-hearted workplace moments, banter with Lois, his nerdy Kansas farm boy charm, etc) and it's in finding those that the character's core appeal is evident, imo.

I don't find Supes fans any more hypocritical than Star Wars fans or DCEU fans or Marvel fans. They're all guilty of their contradictions, because they like what they like, and while trying to give logical reasons for why something isn't up to snuff, it's all dancing around the real reason being "because it's not what I wanted." All fandoms are guilty of this.

 

[misslane38]

Can't say I agree. Sure, if you pick and choose random elements, but those stories have repeated and common elements (his optimism, his belief in people, the importance he places on family, generally light-hearted workplace moments, banter with Lois, his nerdy Kansas farm boy charm, etc) and it's in finding those that the character's core appeal is evident, imo.

And the degree to which those elements are supported in the text and by the readers depends on the contexts in which those stories exist.

I don't find Supes fans any more hypocritical than Star Wars fans or DCEU fans or Marvel fans. They're all guilty of their contradictions, because they like what they like, and while trying to give logical reasons for why something isn't up to snuff, it's all dancing around the real reason being "because it's not what I wanted." All fandoms are guilty of this.

Sure, all fandoms do this, but of all the fandoms I've encountered Superman fandom is the worst. I think it's because it goes beyond their double standards. Superman fans love playing the victim. The only thing I've noticed that is consistent among the most hard core and vocal Superman purists is that they will basically endorse anything regardless as long as it is celebrated and popular. Superman can do and be anything, according to these fans, as long as he's on top: the winner rather than the loser.

 

[flickchick85]

And the degree to which those elements are supported in the text and by the readers depends on the contexts in which those stories exist.

Sure, all fandoms do this, but of all the fandoms I've encountered Superman fandom is the worst. I think it's because it goes beyond their double standards. Superman fans love playing the victim. The only thing I've noticed that is consistent among the most hard core and vocal Superman purists is that they will basically endorse anything regardless as long as it is celebrated and popular. Superman can do and be anything, according to these fans, as long as he's on top: the winner rather than the loser.

Yet again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[SiegePerilous]

Sure, all fandoms do this, but of all the fandoms I've encountered Superman fandom is the worst. I think it's because it goes beyond their double standards. Superman fans love playing the victim. The only thing I've noticed that is consistent among the most hard core and vocal Superman purists is that they will basically endorse anything regardless as long as it is celebrated and popular. Superman can do and be anything, according to these fans, as long as he's on top: the winner rather than the loser.

That's how how all comic book fandoms work, not just the Superman fandom. Every comic fan wants their hero to come out on top, and that's how all the most successful CBMs ultimately end, along with other factors. The most celebrated and popular works for every character depict them as winners and embrace them for who they are.

If Superman can and do anything, they generally want to see him do it and be challenged while doing it, but still come out on top. That's what he was made for, that's what they ALL are made for. We've seen that there is no value in going with the "loser" approach because more than just the Superman purists have rejected it. Taking inspiration and bits and pieces from the most highly regarded stories in the fandom is just common sense. If the same stories end up on similar lists from different people, it's probably for a reason.

 

[Ryudoz]

I think the Winner/Loser aspect of the Superman Fandom usually comes about in comparison to other heroes, namely Batman, to whom he is often used for the Worf Effect. Ironically in his last two theatrical outings we've seen Clark at his most restrained/unrestrained when it comes to battling others. In both cases though, the outcome was dictated by their places in the dramatic structure (end of Act II/IV) just as much as his physical capability in each fight.

 

[Lily Adler]

I posted enough of my fanfiction here that you all know. My MOS sequel was the greatest of all time! Greatest of all time, fam.

 

[Flint Marko]

Said this before but we keep talking about how hard Superman movies are to make as if good film-makers gave it a go and failed. Bryan Singer and Zack Snyder are not very good film-makers, and they made not very good Superman movies. This should surprise no one.

I'm not saying that making a Superman movie is without it's challenges, I don't think making good movies is easy in general, but come on. We're talking about the directors of Jack the Giant Slayer and Sucker Punch, folks.

Said this all before, but it's like having a bad chef cook you a steak. You wouldn't go "wow I guess steak is just so hard to cook", you'd demand a cook who knew what they were doing.

I'm definitely over-simplifying things but I'm not wrong. Give Spielberg or Vaughn or Abrams or any proven film-maker the chance to make a Superman movie and all of this nonsense talk of blaming the fans or the material will go away in an instant.

 

[Boy Scout]

Maybe he’s lost his touch, but I thought Singer was pretty good back in the day. SR is an obvious misstep, but I enjoyed his X-Men movies.

 

[Flint Marko]

The only Singer movie that I think holds up is DOFP. I'd easily take Superman Returns over the rest, including X2.

 

[Boy Scout]

I...wouldn’t. But I can respect that.

 

[flickchick85]

I was never a huge fan of Singer's X-Men films, and none of them have aged particularly well for me. I much prefer First Class over them. And yeah, maybe even Superman Returns. Unfortunately I think he peaked with The Usual Suspects, due in no small part to Chris McQuarrie.

 

[MaceB]

I just had a thought for a new Superman movie, which could address some of the issues. Do a Bizarro movie! I know.. he's not my favorite villain either, but he could be used really well. Bizarro would be a physical equal to Superman, so the movie could have all the flying and the punching that we love. At the same time though, you could make it so Bizarro is just misunderstood.. and possibly dying because his genetic makeup is unstable. Make Bizarro a tragic figure that Superman sympathizes with and relate to. In the end, Superman decides not to hurt Bizarro but to befriend him and to help him.

You get the physical aspect of Superman, but also the human aspect... which I think is the balance that is often missing.

Lex Luthor could make Bizarro in a lab, so we could still have all that awesome Luthor/Superman back and forth too.