The Avengers Will Avengers do better than Wolverine?

[Superhero 101]

This movie will do well i expect Spiderman 3 numbers 800 million for sure

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Well.. It's not really fair to compare the two. Superman without his powers is just a weakling who can get his butt kicked by any normal guy; the same could be said about spider-man, or bruce banner, for example.
On the other hand, Thor, even is his mortal, powerless state, still is a warrior born, with thousands of years of fighting experience, used to killing frost giants and other immortal threats on a daily basis. So, yeah, he can destroy a bunch of guys pretty easily.

You mean like Captain America? haha, y'know, I wouldn't even call Cap a weakling when he gets his ass kicked by that guy in the alleyway...some people are just more genetically advantaged than their opponent, due to height and weight, it's why they have weight divisions in boxing.
Hell, you could say it was the big guy who beat down on Cap who was the weakling, as soon as he encountered someone his own size he got beaten right?
It's a lot of macho bs to go around talking about people as 'weaklings' just because they arn't as tall or don't weigh as much as other people who are more advantaged in physical confrontations.
What is weak is fighting dirty, as rock did in Superman II, or cowardice, Peter Parker turning away from that mugging in Spider-man 2.

and I know you just rolled right over it and ignored my point, but y'know, that hospital scene with Thor does not make sense when it comes to your thesis there. Any trained and capable fighter wouldn't turn his back on his opponents the way Thor did at the hospital. As I was saying, it was like he was a completely different guy from the one who took down the shield agents.
I'd need to watch the movie again(my dvd is lent out), but I don't know how I'd explain that discreprancy in Thor's fighting skills.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

I'd need to watch the movie again(my dvd is lent out), but I don't know how I'd explain that discreprancy in Thor's fighting skills.

arrogance and not being used to being depowered vs. a little less arrongance (but not quite there yet) and more used to the situation.

also, during the first fight, Thor seems quite disoriented whereas during the SHIELD fight he knew exactly where he was and what he had to do.

 

[Gamma Burst]

You mean like Captain America? haha, y'know, I wouldn't even call Cap a weakling when he gets his ass kicked by that guy in the alleyway...some people are just more genetically advantaged than their opponent, due to height and weight, it's why they have weight divisions in boxing.
Hell, you could say it was the big guy who beat down on Cap who was the weakling, as soon as he encountered someone his own size he got beaten right?
It's a lot of macho bs to go around talking about people as 'weaklings' just because they arn't as tall or don't weigh as much as other people who are more advantaged in physical confrontations.
What is weak is fighting dirty, as rock did in Superman II, or cowardice, Peter Parker turning away from that mugging in Spider-man 2.

and I know you just rolled right over it and ignored my point, but y'know, that hospital scene with Thor does not make sense when it comes to your thesis there. Any trained and capable fighter wouldn't turn his back on his opponents the way Thor did at the hospital. As I was saying, it was like he was a completely different guy from the one who took down the shield agents.
I'd need to watch the movie again(my dvd is lent out), but I don't know how I'd explain that discreprancy in Thor's fighting skills.

You really think everybody is 'out to get you', isn't it? Dude, relax.

Btw, it's very easy to explain the 'discrenpancy', as you say.
A disonrieted Thor (who had been tasered) just woke up in a strange, closed place , where he was easily overwhelmed by the guys who restrained and the drugged him, so that he couldn't fight anymore.
In the second fight, much later, he was prepared to fight, as a warrior should be, fully recovered, and with the element of surprise on his side.

Oh, about cap, you're wrong again. Take the super soldier serum from him and Cap is still a fighter, trained by some of the best and, like Thor, a great strategist. I could say the same about other guys, like wolverine (take his healing factor and bones and he still is a hell of a fighter) or iron fist (without his chi powers), etc.
supes and spidey, no, they would get pummeled by your average joes.

 

[Gamma Burst]

arrogance and not being used to being depowered vs. a little less arrongance (but not quite there yet) and more used to the situation.

also, during the first fight, Thor seems quite disoriented whereas during the SHIELD fight he knew exactly where he was and what he had to do.

See my post above.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

You really think everybody is 'out to get you', isn't it? Dude, relax.

Btw, it's very easy to explain the 'discrenpancy', as you say.
A disonrieted Thor (who had been tasered) just woke up in a strange, closed place , where he was easily overwhelmed by the guys who restrained and the drugged him, so that he couldn't fight anymore.
In the second fight, much later, he was prepared to fight, as a warrior should be, fully recovered, and with the element of surprise on his side.

Oh, about cap, you're wrong again. Take the super soldier serum from him and Cap is still a fighter, trained by some of the best and, like Thor, a great strategist. I could say the same about other guys, like wolverine (take his healing factor and bones and he still is a hell of a fighter) or iron fist (without his chi powers), etc.
supes and spidey, no, they would get pummeled by your average joes.

Of course, Spidey now had training with Iron Fist and Cap (IIRC) after he lost his spider-senses. That's the beauty of being an Avenger.

One would think that Supes had a little training himself being in the JLA together with very skilled fighters, but I can't recall that this was ever mentioned.


But yes, both are probably very far from being badass ninja warriors without their powers and that's fine because not everybody hast to be and it would be boring if everybody was.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Btw, it's very easy to explain the 'discrenpancy', as you say.
A disonrieted Thor (who had been tasered) just woke up in a strange, closed place , where he was easily overwhelmed by the guys who restrained and the drugged him, so that he couldn't fight anymore.
In the second fight, much later, he was prepared to fight, as a warrior should be, fully recovered, and with the element of surprise on his side.

No, a 'warrior born' would not be so disorientated from basically waking from sleep, it's not like he was drugged and suffering from after effects, he turned his back on his enemies like rank amatuer.

Oh, about cap, you're wrong again. Take the super soldier serum from him and Cap is still a fighter, trained by some of the best and, like Thor, a great strategist. I could say the same about other guys, like wolverine (take his healing factor and bones and he still is a hell of a fighter) or iron fist (without his chi powers), etc.
supes and spidey, no, they would get pummeled by your average joes.

It's really strange how you talk about these characters as if they are real people, as if there are defining versions of them, when in actual fact what you or I say can probably be contradicted by one story or another in the various media they have been represneted in.
How about we talk about the situations, story by story, case by case, don't you think that would be more logical?

eg, powerless Superman, one of the best eps of Smallville was when Clark was de-powered and managed to kick the asses of a bunch of super-powered villans who came to his home looking for revenge, by using a combination of his head and physicality.

Spider-man? there was a great 3 part story in the early 90s by Erik Larsen and David Michelinie, where Spidey defeated a bunch of enemies after losing his powers, he wasn't completely useless in those physical confrontations.

They weren't weaklings in those situations at all when they were de-powered.

and as for Cap, you know fine well I was talking about him in his natural pre-super serum state. ie powerless Cap.
It wasn't weak when he told that bigger guy to shut up in the theatre, being weak would have been to keep his mouth shut, by your criteria, what made Captain America a hero was the super-serum alone, a way of thinking which in actual fact, goes against everything that story was about.

So, either you didn't understand what the story in the Cap movie was all about, or you disagree with the story's ethos, and think Cap is a weakling who owed his hero status to, essentially, 'steriods.'

 

[Gamma Burst]

No, a 'warrior born' would not be so disorientated from basically waking from sleep, it's not like he was drugged and suffering from after effects, he turned his back on his enemies like rank amatuer.



It's really strange how you talk about these characters as if they are real people, as if there are defining versions of them, when in actual fact what you or I say can probably be contradicted by one story or another in the various media they have been represneted in.
How about we talk about the situations, story by stary, case by case, don't you think that would be more logical?

eg, powerless Superman, one of the best eps of Smallville was when Clark was de-powered and managed to kick the asses of a bunch of super-powered villans who came to his home looking for revenge, by using a combination of his head and physicality.

Spider-man? there was a great 3 part story in the early 90s by Erik Larsen and David Michelinie, where Spidey defeated a bunch of enemies after losing his powers, he wasn't completely useless in those physical confrontations.

They weren't weaklings in those situations at all.

and as for Cap, you know fine well I was talking about him in his natural pre-super serum state. ie powerless Cap.
It wasn't weak when he told that bigger guy to shut up in the theatre, being weak would have been to keep his mouth shut, by your criteria, what made Captain America a hero was the super-serum alone, a way of thinking which in actual fact, goes against everything that story was about.

So, either you didn't understand what the story in the Cap movie was all about, or you disagree with the story's ethos, and think Cap is a weakling who owed his hero status to, essentially, 'steriods.'

Talkiing about them as if they were real? LOL, nope. That would be you trying to put words in my mouth.
But' i'll try to explain it better, so read carefully. Every character has some core characteristics that define them and that make them unique. You may try to introduce some new elements, new powers, etc, but, in the end, it always comes back to these core elements. The same could be said about the movie versions: they need to keep those elements, so that they're faithful to the original versions.
Your example with the (horrible) smallvile series doesn't hold here, as the series and the 'clark' are a loose interpretation which have basically nothing to do with Superman and his mythos. The same could be said about the 80's tv Hulk, even though it was a good show, it doesn't have much to do with the incredible hulk, unless you think a mute, mildly strong guy painted in green and who can be killed/wonded by a bullet and knife, is a faithful version of the character. I could give a lot of other examples.
About Cap, you probably didn't understand what I wrote before.
We're not discussing here 'values', ideals or if these characters are nice guys. They are heroes who fight for the 'good of mankind', most of them are noble people, thus they can't, in that sense, be considered weaklings. However, we're discussing fight prowess and physical power, and, again, take away spidey&supes powers or Stark's armor and they become average joes who can be easily beaten. Really can't say the same for Cap, Thor, hercules, black panther, etc.

 

[Gamma Burst]

No, a 'warrior born' would not be so disorientated from basically waking from sleep, it's not like he was drugged and suffering from after effects, he turned his back on his enemies like rank amatuer.


'

Hythlodeus post explains it even better. Give a try, hehe

 

[Gamma Burst]

Of course, Spidey now had training with Iron Fist and Cap (IIRC) after he lost his spider-senses. That's the beauty of being an Avenger.

One would think that Supes had a little training himself being in the JLA together with very skilled fighters, but I can't recall that this was ever mentioned.


But yes, both are probably very far from being badass ninja warriors without their powers and that's fine because not everybody hast to be and it would be boring if everybody was.

Yeah, those trainings are cool and all, but they're hardly mentioned or used, and I bet that, once Slott is off ASM, it will be forgotten.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

This movie will do well i expect Spiderman 3 numbers 800 million for sure

That would be awesome, lol.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Talkiing about them as if they were real? LOL, nope. That would be you trying to put words in my mouth.
But' i'll try to explain it better, so read carefully. Every character has some core characteristics that define them and that make them unique. You may try to introduce some new elements, new powers, etc, but, in the end, it always comes back to these core elements. The same could be said about the movie versions: they need to keep those elements, so that they're faithful to the original versions.
Your example with the (horrible) smallvile series doesn't hold here, as the series and the 'clark' are a loose interpretation which have basically nothing to do with Superman and his mythos. The same could be said about the 80's tv Hulk, even though it was a good show, it doesn't have much to do with the incredible hulk, unless you think a mute, mildly strong guy painted in green and who can be killed/wonded by a bullet and knife, is a faithful version of the character. I could give a lot of other examples.

Yeah, i read all of this waffle carefully, ie just because you don't care for Smallville, that means it's not a representation of superman.
His power set and attitude is the same as the one from the most popular incarnations in the comics. The one we all know and refer to in general, comapring it to the Tv hulk is an extremely poor attempt at dismissing my example.

About Cap, you probably didn't understand what I wrote before.
We're not discussing here 'values', ideals or if these characters are nice guys. They are heroes who fight for the 'good of mankind', most of them are noble people, thus they can't, in that sense, be considered weaklings. However, we're discussing fight prowess and physical power, and, again, take away spidey&supes powers or Stark's armor and they become average joes who can be easily beaten. Really can't say the same for Cap, Thor, hercules, black panther, etc.

No, it's you who don't understand what I have been saying, that I take issue with your use of the word 'weakling', also, with your concept of 'fighting prowess'.

Even though he gets his ass kicked...Cap is the better fighter in that alleyway, he is the better fighter, and by extention, the hero, because he fights against the odds. The big guy is the worse fighter, because, as soon as he comes up against someone the same size as him, he gets his ass kicked, he can only 'win' against a sick and weak Cap.

Have you ever heard the expression 'It's not the size of the dog, but the size of the fight in the dog'?
That's what i am talking about.

 

[Gamma Burst]

It's not my problem you have issues with the use of the word weakling...
You seem to take it as a personal ofence when i call a 'fictional character' weakling.
Anyway,It changes nothing about the points I've made about fighting skill: you either have it or you don't.
But I digress>


To stay on , finally, on topicf course the avengers will do much better!

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

It's not my problem you have issues with the use of the word weakling...
You seem to take it as a personal ofence when i call a 'fictional character' weakling.
Anyway,It changes nothing about the points I've made about fighting skill: you either have it or you don't.
But I digress>

and it's not my problem that you don't have reading comprehension beyond the basics, so it's extra funny when you open your post with condescending insults like 'But' i'll try to explain it better, so read carefully', and constant remarks like 'you don't understand what I'm saying...'
But, at least you have conceded that here, there is hope for you i guess.

and y'know, physical prowess in an fistfight doesn't mean jack to me, the universe picks the best when it needs the best done, fighting skills go further than the usual macho man can imagine, that's why they wait until the better fighter is in a weakened state before striking, and fight dirty like rock in Superman II.

You're right, you either got it or you ain't, the power ring selects the bravest and best fighter, right? haha
I guess some just can't accept that.

I am gonna enjoy my time in this organisation a great deal.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Good luck with the insults.

I don't need to resort to that.

 

[Gamma Burst]

That would be awesome, lol.

It's a very real possibility, i'd say.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

*sigh*
I love the thread title. It's like asking "Is The Naked Gun funnier than Dogville?"

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Good luck with the insults.

I don't need to resort to that.

What? My remark about reading comprehension? I was merely pointing out the irony, since all the way through our discussion you had assumed it was me in the wrong when it came to understanding what was being written. It was you who went on about reading comprehension in the first place.
I was trying to help you become a better poster, ie don't always assume your opponent is the one in the wrong, and read posts more carefully.
You will have a more fulfilling and less embaressing time on the boards that way.
I've conceded many a time on the boards when I was wrong about something, there's no shame in that.

 

[Gamma Burst]

What? My remark about reading comprehension? I was merely pointing out the irony, since all the way through our discussion you had assumed it was me in the wrong when it came to understanding what was being written. It was you who went on about reading comprehension in the first place.
I was trying to help you become a better poster, ie don't always assume your opponent is the one in the wrong, and read posts more carefully.
You will have a more fulfilling and less embaressing time on the boards that way.
I've conceded many a time on the boards when I was wrong about something, there's no shame in that.

Nice! so here goes my advice: these characters aren't real, so you don't need to feel insulted when I say some of them are weaklings, which some of tem are,btw. I know that if you do that you'll enjoy your time here much more.

 

[Gamma Burst]

*sigh*
I love the thread title. It's like asking "Is The Naked Gun funnier than Dogville?"

Maybe the thread title made sense in 2009!

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Nice! so here goes my advice: these characters aren't real, so you don't need to feel insulted when I say some of them are weaklings, which some of tem are,btw. I know that if you do that you'll enjoy your time here much more.

I actually really enjoyed our discussion today, esp how it all turned out.
I hope my advice serves you well in future.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

awwwww... I love watching this virtual foreplay.
you two are too cute.





now kiss!

 

[Gamma Burst]

awwwww... I love watching this virtual foreplay.
you two are too cute.




now kiss!

Only if you joins us.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Ok, but I'm the one who gets to be the Black Widow.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Only if you joins us.

Ok, but I'm the one who gets to be the Black Widow.

*allreadyunbottoningmyshirt*