Comics Wizard #204 Spidey (BND) Debate Article

[Styleshift]

That's actually one problem that I've always had about the multiple Spider-Man titles before (aside from title-crossover stories): What happened in one book may never be referenced in another. It sometimes would feel (like TMOB has pointed out in the "did-May-use-a-pseudonym-or-not?" conflict) that what happens in one book would either conflict with what happened in another book that month.

It was almost as if each book was it's own alternate timeline. Each month, I'd be reading three different storylines, and often I couldn't tell what order they were supposed to be happening in. When Spidey was going through the crisis of Sins Past in Amazing, he was also off fighting alongside Captain America in Spectacular, and in Marvel Knights he was getting his butt kicked by Electro. What happened when?

Now with doing away with the multiple titles and simply having the same title 3 times a month I don't have to ask myself that anymore. I can clearly see what order things are happening, and it actually seems like we're reading one cohesive timeline now instead of three separate ones (I'm ignoring Spidey's involvement in the Avengers stories right now, obviously )

True. I'm not saying BND is horrible in anyway. I agree that they really really really needed to get rid of the multiple books. I just hope everyone is clear on what I really meant. I feel the story telling has become more cohesive yet "clunky".

I guess I'm not so used to having the art and writer switch out every month.

I get pretty upset when I have to skip a month of stories because it's Gale's turn again.

 

[farmernudie]

Not to nitpick the numbers, but i just read again TMOB stating how BND is the best selling ever or so on, based on average.

But i feel everytime that is said, it should be noted that THAT statement needs to come with an *asterix...because there is NOTHING to compare it to, so the numbers are actually lower, but if you multiply it by 3....then they ARE higher....

Any comparison is speculation.

And if you choose to speculate...you'd have to multiple AMAZING ONLY from the past TIMES THREE.

And then THAT result is not right either.

Because to be fair, there is a lot of marketing and stuff towards this NEW 3X cycle they're MARKETING.

They've got TOP creative teams, multiple covers, advertising, EVENT HEADINGS on the covers of "BND"...and so on....

The old 1X Amazing that if you CHOOSE to mulitply x3 (Which would beat this amazing) HAD NO MARKETING FOR SUCH.

No special creative teams, no special advertising, no special covers, just 12 issues and an annual with "A" Creative Team.

So, I am just trying to be fair and balanced here, that when they (anyone) trys to say this is selling great.....take that statement with a grain of salt.

At one of the recent conventions, a comic shop owner asked Joe personally about this reboot, and how it is hurting sales at his shop, and he was blown off pretty much with a joke by Joe. Fact.

Monthly numbers are now below 70,000. Fact.

They've been losing avg. 2000+ per month. Fact.

Polls, fans, etc.......show that many do NOT like this reboot. Fact.

Sure, some DO like it, some are reading it FOR the creative teams and not for "Spidey". Some like my friend are still buying it only for his "run".

But, you can frame numbers any way you want. Inclusing me. I am just saying, don't take any of our numbers fro me, TMOB, MArvel, and of the cheerleaders or haters...but think about the logicistics of what people are trying to compare, because my main point is...there is NOTHING to compare this current experiment with, because it has never happened or never done this way before. And technically, from the numbers i've multiplied, Amazing 3X is selling LESS.

I guess it depends on what angle you look at it from, and what numbers you choose to use, and what information you choose to disregard.

It's in the details.

 

[Themanofbat]

I think that Marvel Execs and shareholders will look at BND (and yes, it's new and there is nothing to compare it to), and look at the bottom line... total number of Spider-Man comics sold in one year.

Yes, I am aware that previous sister books did not fare so well sales wise.

Yes, I am aware that there is nothing in the past to compare it to.

Yes, I am aware that there is a fanbase that is NOT buying the books because of OMD, but there is a special treatment in BND to get people to buy.

And finally, yes, I am aware that the numbers have been dwindling monthly.

But 2008 will go down as the BEST year as far as total number of Spidey books sold (total), as well as the best average (per book).

And that is a fact.

 

[Styleshift]

Well, we don't know if it will be the best year for Spidey or not. This info hasn't been verified yet.
They still haven't revealed "the secrets of OMD" yet.

It may end up pissing off fans even more. who knows with Spidey these days....

 

[Themanofbat]

Well, we don't know if it will be the best year for Spidey or not. This info hasn't been verified yet.
They still haven't revealed "the secrets of OMD" yet.

It may end up pissing off fans even more. who knows with Spidey these days....

You're right... but every issue of ASM would have to sell around 42k in order to simply MATCH the best year this decade of total number of Spidey books sold.

But the decline does have me concerned...

 

[Styleshift]

You're right... but every issue of ASM would have to sell around 42k in order to simply MATCH the best year this decade of total number of Spidey books sold.

But the decline does have me concerned...

My main comic retailer is waaaaay behind on BND. He hasn't even got in NWTD yet. the most recent arc I saw was Kraven's daughter.

He says the title isn't selling as well since OMD, and he can't put up with the 3x a month plan, because it is costing him too much since it is just sitting there. He says he just can't understand why Marvel made such a move on Spidey when he was selling so well before. They broke up Peter and Mj the most recognizable couple next to lois and clark. every one knows they are just going to put the two back together again... not only did they break the two up but they did it in such a poor fasion and said none of it ever happened. He pointed out that they played with 20 years of history (whether its the marriage or bringing back harry.)

for a reboot that hasn't shown muscle thus far.

(however the other store I go to sometimes has sold out of NWTD with regular BND issues well in stock.)

Whether Spidey stays single forever or not. I hope they just stop screwing us over on story telling....

When I go into comic stores now I just pick up essentials, There are too many "life changing events" for me to put up with. I barely pick up single issues anymore.

 

[farmernudie]

TMOB: But 2008 will go down as the BEST year as far as total number of Spidey books sold (total), as well as the best average (per book).

And that is a fact.

Well..........that is a murky statement, not trying to argue here TMOB, because i like talking with you, even when we disagree, and i know what you're trying to say, and i think you know what i am also...(and you did lots of work with thosenumbers in that other post....)

But...........This can't be the best year as far as total number of spidey books goes, unless you are comparing apples to oranges.

You'd have to multiply a whole year of Amazing every year, or for the "decade", as you state often, times THREE.

And just IF one of those years is LESS than this current "AMAZING" sales year (supposedly)...well, that number still means nothing really, because one can fairly argue that nothing in the past was marketed or geared to trumped up like this new 3X is.

So it is all theorectical jibberish anyway. Because if you threw Todd McFarlane, for instance, or the whole pre-Image crew on Amazing 3X back then, gimmick covers, etc....then those numbers would be THRU THE ROOF compared to these current ones and make todays 3X look even worse!

STYLESHIFT:

My main comic retailer is waaaaay behind on BND. He hasn't even got in NWTD yet. the most recent arc I saw was Kraven's daughter.

He says the title isn't selling as well since OMD, and he can't put up with the 3x a month plan, because it is costing him too much since it is just sitting there. He says he just can't understand why Marvel made such a move on Spidey when he was selling so well before.

My LCS guy is having trouble moving issues too, and NO luck moving a TPB of OMD or BND. And he knows i used to buy ALL spidey TPB's when they came out, so he is annoyed to see me now...lol...

On a more interesting note, i was reading on another site where some MArvel heads are admiting the numbers in sales are low, but that they are OK with it, stating that subscription sales are currently good enough to keep it going.

Then, the debate after that was, how 3X has created a financial problem, where it is only affordable for subscription tho, so it is going to hurt sales in stores, like you stated. And then i've read more where people are debating now if 3X is not only hurting the character, with all the negativity attached to this reboot, but also comics in general, as in the SHOPS that loyally have tried to sell the comics of these makers...MArvel, DC, and others.

Lots to think about.

 

[Styleshift]

Well..........that is a murky statement, not trying to argue here TMOB, because i like talking with you, even when we disagree, and i know what you're trying to say, and i think you know what i am also...(and you did lots of work with thosenumbers in that other post....)

But...........This can't be the best year as far as total number of spidey books goes, unless you are comparing apples to oranges.

You'd have to multiply a whole year of Amazing every year, or for the "decade", as you state often, times THREE.

And just IF one of those years is LESS than this current "AMAZING" sales year (supposedly)...well, that number still means nothing really, because one can fairly argue that nothing in the past was marketed or geared to trumped up like this new 3X is.

So it is all theorectical jibberish anyway. Because if you threw Todd McFarlane, for instance, or the whole pre-Image crew on Amazing 3X back then, gimmick covers, etc....then those numbers would be THRU THE ROOF compared to these current ones and make todays 3X look even worse!





My LCS guy is having trouble moving issues too, and NO luck moving a TPB of OMD or BND. And he knows i used to buy ALL spidey TPB's when they came out, so he is annoyed to see me now...lol...

On a more interesting note, i was reading on another site where some MArvel heads are admiting the numbers in sales are low, but that they are OK with it, stating that subscription sales are currently good enough to keep it going.

Then, the debate after that was, how 3X has created a financial problem, where it is only affordable for subscription tho, so it is going to hurt sales in stores, like you stated. And then i've read more where people are debating now if 3X is not only hurting the character, with all the negativity attached to this reboot, but also comics in general, as in the SHOPS that loyally have tried to sell the comics of these makers...MArvel, DC, and others.

Lots to think about.

People can still cancel their subscriptions, bottom line is Marvel made a HUGE mistake. They could have done this BND direction without making a brand new convoluted history for spider-man.

I haven't picked up a single issue since OMD to be honest. (excluding NWTD) Marvel has alot of work to do to gain my trust back....

Queseda himself openly admitted that it was just to get them where they wanted to be. If they are willing to sell crappy stories just to get what they want, who knows if this will be done in another book soon?

I can't trust marvels integrity these days So I stay away from all these events and such. the other was the last straw.

and I remember in a wizard magazine months before OMD was released how Quesada claimed it have a fantastic battle and was going to be such a grand spidey tale. its the only reason i bought if after reading the other. funny thing is this store i speak of also has OMD STILL on the shelves.

as for me, nothing beats the classics.

Currently I'm reading Essentials (amazing spider-man vol. 6) and (x-men vol. 2)

 

[kguillou]

^^ I completely agree, whats to stop this kind of "reboot" from happening to other marvel characters who are written into a corner? Daredevil's going through a very dark time right now, with his identity practically revealed to the world and because of that his loved ones have suffered, hmm....sound familiar? Since Marvel believes that BND was a huge success whats to stop Daredevil from a making a deal with the, um...devil? That way daredevil can have a brand new day and he'll be running around in his yellow costume, cracking jokes just like the old days. lol

 

[farmernudie]

Yep, this set a mode where Joe can have his writers write anything, and then they can hit the pnic button and reset everything back to whenever, give any marvel character a brand new day, and change 20 years of their history, and start over.

But, i maintain, what they're really doing is ultimatizing the marvel universe.

Marvel already had a kid spidey that was single.

Now they made their Spider-MAN into a man-boy who is dumb and dopey.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

^^ so what you're saying is that they should renamthe title to The Amazing Spider-Man-Child

 

[carnageehw]

I have a question: I don't really look at the numbers, because I'm just not that interested in it. Now, I'm not talking profits or anything like that, but is readership on each individual issue of Amazing less than what it was before?

It doesn't serve a long term strategy to have less readership reading each issue, regardless if publishing 3 issues a month makes you more money.

 

[Galactus]

^^ so what you're saying is that they should renamthe title to The Amazing Spider-Man-Child

Or The Not-So-Amazing Spider-Man-Child

 

[Styleshift]

^^ so what you're saying is that they should renamthe title to The Amazing Spider-Man-Child

I like the sound of "Alternate" Spider-man.

 

[JayTee]

I'm of the firm belief that JMS's run was the "Alternate Spider-Man" and we've got the real one back. I was buying it only on and off during his stint and then quit for good halfway through Sins Past.

Now I'm back, and I looooooooooooooooooooooove every second of it.

 

[Styleshift]

I'm of the firm belief that JMS's run was the "Alternate Spider-Man" and we've got the real one back. I was buying it only on and off during his stint and then quit for good halfway through Sins Past.

Now I'm back, and I looooooooooooooooooooooove every second of it.

You don't even know "this" Spider-man....
even college Pete wasn't struggling THIS hard.


He was quite the bachelor.

I think we have the movies to thank for turning Peter into an all time loser. They over did it seriously.

This guy doesn't even trust Dare-devil with his secret anymore. (who has known for YEARS btw)

Seriously, tell me what he's been up to since OMD? How did he lose his powers? Why does he not notice that harry should be dead? I can go on you know....

 

[farmernudie]

I agree with you Styleshift...

They should call it Alternate Spider-Man...which sounds good, and could serve a purpose...for those that like the alternate universe of spidey stuff.

Or call it Ultimate Ultimate Spider-Man.

And then continue an Amazing Spider-Man that's in continuity and doesn't have anything related to a whole new world created by the devil with altered history to boot.

The thing is, they should never go back and try to make sense of the devil stealing marriage fairy thing...and just start good stories that take place after where normal continuity left off.

Trying to explain devil deals, mindwiping an entire planet, and why no one cares their minds are swiss cheesed and deaths/life, MJ Disco-Clubber, etc..would be too much..and only add to the cheese.

 

[Blader5489]

^^ I completely agree, whats to stop this kind of "reboot" from happening to other marvel characters who are written into a corner? Daredevil's going through a very dark time right now, with his identity practically revealed to the world and because of that his loved ones have suffered, hmm....sound familiar? Since Marvel believes that BND was a huge success whats to stop Daredevil from a making a deal with the, um...devil? That way daredevil can have a brand new day and he'll be running around in his yellow costume, cracking jokes just like the old days. lol

The difference is that Daredevil is supposed to be a serious character.

 

[Styleshift]

The difference is that Daredevil is supposed to be a serious character.

No, DD was originally introduced as a fun lovin wise crackin adventurer.
Over the years and experiances DD had he "MATURED" into a serious character. He doesn't even joke all that much with Spidey like he used to...

He's right. whats to stop marvel from hitting the panic button one day and returning DD to his "roots"?

I'm a fan of the old DD compared to "Batman" DD. I'm probably obviously in the minority. should marvel consider a complete Reboot of the DD character in favor of the minority jumping on?

 

[kguillou]

Although im a huge fan of the Miller/Bendis noir version of daredevil, i think he could still be serious and have a sense of humor at the same time. Daredevil can still smile and make some jokes form time to time without being totally dark and moody like Batman. The way he was portrayed in the 90's spiderman cartoon for example is a perfect example of how daredevil should be. In my opinion at least.

 

[Styleshift]

Although im a huge fan of the Miller/Bendis noir version of daredevil, i think he could still be serious and have a sense of humor at the same time. Daredevil can still smile and make some jokes form time to time without being totally dark and moody like Batman. The way he was portrayed in the 90's spiderman cartoon for example is a perfect example of how daredevil should be. In my opinion at least.

I agree...wise cracking is Spidey's thing.
But DD shouldn't at least be able to make a joke here and there. seeing as thats how the character started. (since they are keeping up with this whole "roots" theme.) I'm not really a big fan of modern era DD. (personality wise)

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I wouldn't want Matt to be like Spidey or Deadpool, cracking jokes every few seconds. But sometimes it feels that Matt is trying too hard to be Batman... But something that I wouldn't want to see (Forgive me DD fans) is the yellow costume... I'd rather keep the Devil Red one...

 

[Styleshift]

I wouldn't want Matt to be like Spidey or Deadpool, cracking jokes every few seconds. But sometimes it feels that Matt is trying too hard to be Batman... But something that I wouldn't want to see (Forgive me DD fans) is the yellow costume... I'd rather keep the Devil Red one...

Exactly. Nicely put

 

[ZollyBeckerShow]

Joey Q should be ousted from Marvel.
He makes Bill Jemas look like Jim Shooter.

 

[Styleshift]

Joey Q should be ousted from Marvel.
He makes Bill Jemas look like Jim Shooter.

Joey Q. is an AMAZING EIC.

he WILL go down as one of the greatest no doubt.

he just hasn't made the best choices for spidey since like...ever.
i really believe if OMD had been written better, without pete resorting to mephisto there still would have been pissed fans. but more people would be on the book currently.