Wolverine #43 - Wolveirne VS Nitro: part 1

[Horrorfan]

Its really sad that this couldnt be discussed without personal insults being thrown.

Sorry, but your views on it make me physically sick and hate humanity a little more each time I read them. Extreme? Yeah, but I just can't respect those views.

It's nothing personal, it's anyone with that type of view....but you seem otherwise decent. I do apologise, but it really, really, really makes me physically ill.

 

[Darthphere]

Sorry, but your views on it make me physically sick and hate humanity a little more each time I read them. Extreme? Yeah, but I just can't respect those views.

It's nothing personal, it's anyone with that type of view....but you seem otherwise decent. I do apologise, but it really, really, really makes me physically ill.

Your problem not mine.


EDIT: Also, im not going to get worked up over a fictional scenario with fictional characters even with all its allegories.

 

[Kool-Aid]

Hopefully since China will be the number one world power soon, more people will be tougher on crime like them

**** that America will pwn their ass.

 

[Horrorfan]

Your problem not mine.


EDIT: Also, im not going to get worked up over a fictional scenario with fictional characters even with all its allegories.

But I know you think that about real life situations, too....that's the disturbing thing.

People who think like that, to me, are what's contributing to the ****tiness of the world today That is all our problems.

As for American pwning china...man I love america, but china don't mess around. You would have so many liberal debating weather its right or wrong to use force if hit, and china don't have that messing around....lets hope the balance of power passes peacfully.

 

[Darthphere]

But I know you think that about real life situations, too....that's the disturbing thing.

People who think like that, to me, are what's contributing to the ****tiness of the world today That is all our problems.

No, people who dont take responsibilities for their actions contribute to the ****tiness of the world.

 

[Horrorfan]

No, people who dont take responsibilities for their actions contribute to the ****tiness of the world.

But it WAS Nitro's responsibility. No matter how wreckless the warriors were, HE is the only one who can control his power. HE chose to take out that entire area. You say that it's the warriors fault that he fought back because he DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO PRISON? Come on, man, think.

You can say if they didnt attack him he might not have blown up (a dubious argument since he probably would have done it anyway), but also, if Nitro was a decent guy who wasn't commiting acts of violence, would anything have been blow up? No.

You are passing his responsibility onto others. You can't plan for stuff like the warriors walked into. They didn't expect him to take out kids. If they did, do you think they would have done that? No.

You're still passing the buck, even if it is with a half hearted 'oh but its not TOTALLY the warriors fault...'

 

[Kotagg]

Sorry to have walked away for a half-hour. These discussions move rather quickly.

Here's my official take on the subject:

- The New Warriors should be held responsible for being hasty and for tackling a situation they did not have the training or capability of handling. THAT - and nothing more. The degree of loss, of life and property, should NOT be taken into account when deciding punishment for a negligent situation where there is NO PRECEDENT on how exactly to act.

- Nitro retains SOLE responsbility for the loss of life and property. Regardless of how the situation came to be about, his actions proved the sole catalyst to the destruction here. He is the killer. He even maliciously gloated before killing all of said people.

In conclusion, the New Warriors were not responsible for the deaths in any direct fashion. The two crimes (and I'm using that word loosely) are not directly causative, and should be analyzed as seperate situations that occurred in the same environment.

 

[Darthphere]

But it WAS Nitro's responsibility. No matter how wreckless the warriors were, HE is the only one who can control his power. HE chose to take out that entire area. You say that it's the warriors fault that he fought back because he DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO PRISON? Come on, man, think.

You can say if they didnt attack him he might not have blown up (a dubious argument since he probably would have done it anyway), but also, if Nitro was a decent guy who wasn't commiting acts of violence, would anything have been blow up? No.

You are passing his responsibility onto others. You can't plan for stuff like the warriors walked into. They didn't expect him to take out kids. If they did, do you think they would have done that? No.

You're still passing the buck, even if it is with a half hearted 'oh but its not TOTALLY the warriors fault...'

No, he wouldnt, because he wouldnt have a reason too.


Heres the thing. I see it this way. If a an escaped convict is hiding out in my neighbor's house and I decide to barge in and kick his ass and I get killed, its his fault for killing me but I had no business being there.

If that makes me a "piece of ****" so be it.

 

[Darthphere]

Sorry to have walked away for a half-hour. These discussions move rather quickly.

Here's my official take on the subject:

- The New Warriors should be held responsible for being hasty and for tackling a situation they did not have the training or capability of handling. THAT - and nothing more. The degree of loss, of life and property, should NOT be taken into account when deciding punishment for a negligent situation where there is NO PRECEDENT on how exactly to act.

- Nitro retains SOLE responsbility for the loss of life and property. Regardless of how the situation came to be about, his actions proved the sole catalyst to the destruction here. He is the killer. He even maliciously gloated before killing all of said people.

In conclusion, the New Warriors were not responsible for the deaths in any direct fashion. The two crimes (and I'm using that word loosely) are not directly causative, and should be analyzed as seperate situations that occurred in the same environment.

I agree 100%.

 

[Kotagg]

Okay, good. I had a feeling we weren't all disagreeing entirely here, and I'm glad that adult conversation can prevail.

 

[Darthphere]

Okay, good. I had a feeling we weren't all disagreeing entirely here, and I'm glad that adult conversation can prevail.

Yeah, im not holding the New Warriors responsible for the actual deaths, just for setting in motion a sequence of events that couldnt be controlled.

 

[Kotagg]

With that on the board, and us being in agreement, what do you think their punishment (were they alive) should have been?

I say heavy fines and training classes, and for Nitro of course the death penalty.

 

[Darthphere]

With that on the board, and us being in agreement, what do you think their punishment (were they alive) should have been?

I say heavy fines and training classes, and for Nitro of course the death penalty.

Probably some sort of probation and forced compliance with the Superhero Registration Act.

 

[thor87]

well in seeing i incited this debate im glad that we are discussing it, i did not mean that Nitro is not at fault i meant that he is not the only one at fault, Nitro was minding his own buisness when the new warriors attacked, Nitro was thrown towered the school while being badmouthed by an incompetent Namorita, it is was a situation handled very poorly and the children were killed. Now many of your arguments say that i was trying to blame the victims, no, the victims were the children they were completely innocent, the New Warriors however deserve an ammount of the blame, lets say the police are called in to difuse a terrorist situation, but they rush in and cause the terrorist to detonate himself when it could have been averted, the police must also be accountable.

 

[Tropico]

I don't blame the Warriors and I don't blame Nitro, I blame the writers.

It is true, the New Warriors, despite having been showcased as training quite often in their original series, have degenerated a bit into more "rookie" status after their last mini, and should have prepared better for a fight against not only Nitro, but Speedfreak, Coldheart, and Cobalt Man (who can also explode and leak radiation). On the other hand, Namorita DIDN'T simply TKO Nitro because she offered him a chance to surrender; perhaps one could see it as a police officer asking a suicide bomber to "not do something stupid" (which WOULD happen, because lord knows if a cop simply shot a bomber instantly, he/she'd be accused of profiling and hauled before internal affairs for not giving the perp even a SECOND to maybe surrender). Nitro KNOWS he is near a crowded area and BRAGS about getting nasty before CHOOSING to explode. Namorita's only flaw, aside for maybe not minding her surroundings better, was mercy; she was apparently supposed to bludgeon Nitro into a coma before he could burst, rather than attempt to be humane and offer a chance to surrender and avoid a body cast. Is that fair to say that is the agruement of some of you?

Note that all four were listed as being on the FBI's Top list and the New Warriors and a reality TV crew managed to find them, while Agent Hill and her holier-than-thou agents did not.

I still feel that the New Warriors are the undue scapegoats here, and Nitro is all but left off the hook. SHIELD's Psi-Ops devision can be downright godly for plot convience when they have to sift through Spider-Man's head, but they can't locate Nitro, huh? Of course, its all for plot convience, because siccing Wolverine, Namor & Co. on a deathhunt for the man makes for good readin'.

Right on, Dread!

I'm tired of saying this, Nitro HAS fought other heroes before in populated areas and not blown up like he did. Overlook the fact that for all the crap people are saying about being prepared and plans and stuff, the Warriors took down ALL of the other villains. Marvel set it up in a way that Namorita didn't punch or tackle Nitro up into the sky and then away into another area (maybe into water to give herself and advantage and blunt Nitro's power) because of the pitiful reality show angle. If it were any other time it could have easily happened that Nitro gets cut off mid-sentence by one of the other Warrior's kick or punch because they took care of the others so easily.

Now, since Marvel used them this way it makes "perfect sense" to the masses to blame them and hold them accountable. To say that Nitro isn't responsible is irresponsible and shallow. He could've exploded just enough to send Namorita back and try to escape, but that wasn't the case.

I'd love to say that they'll use Wolverine's jobber aura to make him beat Nitro easily (when it shouldn't be that way), but it's too early to tell. One of the panels in the preview to the next issue has him showing some kind of pill bottle and that could have some kind of impact on all that happened. The cards still fall Logan's way since it's possible for him to track Nitro down as opposed to SHIELD. By coincidence Nitro has chosen to isolate himself in a cabin in the woods. Truly a WTF? moment but I'm sure there's a handy explanation for it (the first one will be that he's hiding out after the disaster). Now he's in a place where he can't harm people like before AND he's in Wolverine's environment. 'Nuff said.

 

[samurai black]

I'd love to say that they'll use Wolverine's jobber aura to make him beat Nitro easily (when it shouldn't be that way), but it's too early to tell. One of the panels in the preview to the next issue has him showing some kind of pill bottle and that could have some kind of impact on all that happened. The cards still fall Logan's way since it's possible for him to track Nitro down as opposed to SHIELD. By coincidence Nitro has chosen to isolate himself in a cabin in the woods. Truly a WTF? moment but I'm sure there's a handy explanation for it (the first one will be that he's hiding out after the disaster). Now he's in a place where he can't harm people like before AND he's in Wolverine's environment. 'Nuff said.

Orginally i thought that Logan wouldn't stand a chance against Nitro, but ater seeing the previews, the writers are probably going to have Nitro somewhat powered down and taken by surprise. But even so, i don't see logan taking him out without some high-powered help, i guess that's where Namor comes into play.

 

[Speedball]

Look like Nitro failed to kill all of the new warriors.
click this link-http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235870

 

[Dread]

I don't blame the Warriors and I don't blame Nitro, I blame the writers.



Right on, Dread!

I'm tired of saying this, Nitro HAS fought other heroes before in populated areas and not blown up like he did. Overlook the fact that for all the crap people are saying about being prepared and plans and stuff, the Warriors took down ALL of the other villains. Marvel set it up in a way that Namorita didn't punch or tackle Nitro up into the sky and then away into another area (maybe into water to give herself and advantage and blunt Nitro's power) because of the pitiful reality show angle. If it were any other time it could have easily happened that Nitro gets cut off mid-sentence by one of the other Warrior's kick or punch because they took care of the others so easily.

Now, since Marvel used them this way it makes "perfect sense" to the masses to blame them and hold them accountable. To say that Nitro isn't responsible is irresponsible and shallow. He could've exploded just enough to send Namorita back and try to escape, but that wasn't the case.

I'd love to say that they'll use Wolverine's jobber aura to make him beat Nitro easily (when it shouldn't be that way), but it's too early to tell. One of the panels in the preview to the next issue has him showing some kind of pill bottle and that could have some kind of impact on all that happened. The cards still fall Logan's way since it's possible for him to track Nitro down as opposed to SHIELD. By coincidence Nitro has chosen to isolate himself in a cabin in the woods. Truly a WTF? moment but I'm sure there's a handy explanation for it (the first one will be that he's hiding out after the disaster). Now he's in a place where he can't harm people like before AND he's in Wolverine's environment. 'Nuff said.

Exactly. The New Warriors at least have options against Nitro, but Wolverine really needs to get close and engage Nitro; should Nitro be in the middle of a populated area, I doubt Wolverine would be any more "prepared" than Namorita was, aside for stealth and not being as "merciful". I'm not opposed to Nitro being upped in the "nasty" department and made into a bigger name with more of a body count. The thing is though, like in real life, if a mistake is made by people who at least attempt to play by "rules", like most superheroes do, then by changing the rules, you can seek to improve upon mistakes. Meanwhile, those who don't, anti-heroes, villians, don't get as much focus because many people take for granted their status. "Oh, they're evil. You CAN'T expect some things from them. Its everyone else you expect more from". But the fact that you can't expect Nitro to surrender or hold back near children should be food for thought.

Plus, the "punking" of the New Warriors has been going on for quite some time. As I said elsewhere once, they're the equalivent to MTV's ROAD RULES, a once hot property now a shell of its former self. They were hot in the 90's when they launched, but became muddled and bungled during the many problems that occured during the 90's. Unlike other properties, which took some 2-5 years in some cases to return to former glory, NEW WARRRIORS ended and never found proper footing again. As such, they became the subject of ridicule and guest-star spots. They became an example of a bungled property, much like the Clone Saga. And like the Clone Saga, anything from that time can only be mentioned as a joke, instead of seriously, even when it is inappropriate. When a chance to make a new mini came, Marvel repeated their mistake and, rather than take them seriously and risk showing that YOUNG AVENGERS was simply "New Warriors, done right", they attached them to a fad with goopy art. It sold poorly. Plus, well, it seems some editors and writers like having a body count, and due to that failed status, the New Warriors are seen as a sacrificial lamb. People won't complain as much or care as much. They have the recognition to be heroes the reader might feel sorry for in Stamford, but have the lack of support enough so that they can be written to fit an agenda without collective fandom going "monkey-nuts", like when Peter Parker was "definately" claimed to be a nasty ol' clone. Or even when Hawkeye had an utterly pointless death.

That all said, the overreactions of the government aren't totally unrealistic, because both Marvel and the real world tend to overreact to things they see as problems, without ever reaching a comfortable, rational middleground. Too many people in power have extreme POV's, which is one of the major problems of the world. Those in power spend so much time seperated from "the masses" that they don't understand certain things about how decisions effect these "masses". And too many people in power are not responsible and are more than willing to exploit an event to manipulate the people. I have no doubt if this incident DID happen in the real world, that politicians WOULDN'T try to capitlize on it, especially during an "election year".

We know this, and know it smells dirty to some of us. That's why this story is becoming so divisive. Its a touch of the real world in a medium where we like to believe people are better than that.

 

[Kool-Aid]

Orginally i thought that Logan wouldn't stand a chance against Nitro, but ater seeing the previews, the writers are probably going to have Nitro somewhat powered down and taken by surprise. But even so, i don't see logan taking him out without some high-powered help, i guess that's where Namor comes into play.

Hopefully they won't have him take a full on blast at ground zero from it just to make him look badass...but they probably will.

 

[Savage]

I actually really dig the art. Makes Wolverine look like he's supposed to; a scrappy little fuzzball. Very scruffy. I also dig the job done on inking and coloring. Kudos to those guys.

Story so far is pretty good and I can't wait for this one. Wolverine has failed to dissapointment me in this entire run since #1.

 

[Kurosawa]

Hopefully they won't have him take a full on blast at ground zero from it just to make him look badass...but they probably will.

There's no probably to it.

I just hope they don't have him humiliate Namor.

 

[foxx5]

Wolverine and Namor are tracking Nitro, but it seems that Namor and Wolverine are going to end up in a fight, why? shouldn't they work to gether or is it a fight over who gets to decapitate Nitro? who will likly escape while Wolverine and Namor battle it out

 

[UK_Stu]

With that on the board, and us being in agreement, what do you think their punishment (were they alive) should have been?

I say heavy fines and training classes, and for Nitro of course the death penalty.

You know I kind of felt like stepping between you guys and pointing out you were pretty much arguing the same thing, but it seems you've finally realised it(plus I was enjoying the exchanges).

I think its pretty clear Nitro was the sole cause of the death toll and is responsible for the deaths and it is he who should pay the penalty for this. BUT the Warriors while not responsible for the deaths, were negligent and their actions could have partly led to the final consequences - so while they(the survovors) shouldn't pay the penalty for the deaths, they should pay a penalty for their negligence.

I'm not sure how this happens in real life, but surely if a cop was in the warriors place, he wouldn't be blamed for the deaths, but if he was negligent in his duty leading up to those deaths he would be suspended from duty or possibly lose his job. But you can't do this with superheroes - which is exactly the point of the Civil War storyline.

 

[UK_Stu]

Wolverine and Namor are tracking Nitro, but it seems that Namor and Wolverine are going to end up in a fight, why? shouldn't they work to gether or is it a fight over who gets to decapitate Nitro? who will likly escape while Wolverine and Namor battle it out

Where hopefully Namor will hand Wolverine his ass...

 

[samurai black]

I don't think it would be a crime against the character to have logan lose to namor. I mean, he's friggin namor. I think the cover misleads us abit to believe they're going to have a slugfest. There may be a couple blows thrown, but logan is the last one to stand in the way of vengance, especially knowing that Nitro kills Namorita. Namor will probably be the one not thinking straight, he'll be too fueled by rage. Man i feel bad for Nitro.