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Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by 04nbod, Feb 20, 2008.
to continue on the debate from the deadpool thread if you want to.
Wolverine is not a natural leader. There's no debating that. He's brash, does whatever the hell he wants to do without giving a damn about everyone else, and basically follows whatever he feels like without giving consideration to what's best for the team. He's surly, and in many cases simply unlikeable. He can be a jerk. Yeah, he's a good guy under all that, but still.
Wolverine is many things, a leader is not one of them.
You'd think that, even with the focus on him in the movies, that it would be obvious how much he's NOT a team player. Guy has a habit of becoming seperated from the pack. I hate how the real team leader was treated though. I mean Toad takes out Cyclops, Jean Grey, AND Storm? Come on now. A little teamwork would have obliterated that guy.
Since we're talking about team leadership, The X-men movies really should have showcased that aspect much more. Even the Fantastic Four movies had that down.
I'll express my opinion here.
they were talking about Logan's leadership in X-3.
I'm not the biggest fan of Logan, but I think Wolverine still should have lead...just not the way he did.
y'know...it would be more natural if he came with something like:
"there's a war out there about to happen and I'm going to fight.
if you guys want to whine in the corner of your room like babies and wait the world to burn instead of doing something...that's your call."
"we're a team...we're the X-Men and we shall stay together." (or whatever he says, I don't remember)
but that's my opinion.
thinking about this...I'd love to hear a "I'm the best at what I do" in the Wolverine movie.
Then why are they making two spin-offs and there are rumors about more X-men films? Killing the franchise seems a bit contradictory to that goal doesn't it?
X-men isn't like the usual franchises that suit trilogies. Most super-hero franchises aren't, either.
You don't kill the golden goose if they can make more money for you.
He was lucky he didn't have a big role in that turkey.
SR blew X-3 away in every catagory.
Fox should wake up and get Singer back to resurrect the franchise that Rothman killed. It's clear without him they have almost no clue what to do with the franchise. Maybe the spin-offs will do well if Fox actually puts some effort into not making the crappy movies.
Sorry for interfering with thread. Wasn't sure where to put this post.
I think Wolverine sometimes walks a fine line between being a leader and being his typical self. For instance, he seems like a fairly effective leader when in Madripoor with Jubilee and Psylocke, doling out orders and such... and that's reasonable. Given his immense experience, it makes sense that he would have the knowledge and skills of a field leader... and I sometimes wonder why he would ever let someone like Cyclops boss him around. One would think Wolverine would find Cyclops rather wet behind the ears compared to himself. I think, at times, Wolverine is capable of being a leader. He just chooses not to be.
I'd say he's a natural field leader, that's for sure.
your thoughts on Wolverine are very poor.
They also go as far as to say he'll endanger the mission at hand just to be "himself".
Funny how Synger showcased that exact fan mentality and reversed in X1, when Cyclops argues with Xavier about Wolverine going with the team to Liberty Island.
Synger knew, that Cyclops just wasn't the strong and iconic character Wolverine is. That's why the original X-Men comic was dead before Claremont brought in Wolverine.
There is no X-MEN without Wolverine.
But there is Wolverine without the X-Men.
stop saying FOX killed the franchise.
The franchise is clearly alive which is why you are on this thread.
Synger couldn't resurrect his own garbage Superman movie if they gave him another $200 million.
If X3 had bombed like Superman Returns did, then all your viewpoints would be valid.
FOX doesn't need to wake up, you do.
Wolverine is simply what Cyclops cannot be: A warrior. He does what needs to be done if he's got the power to do it. When he has to be a leader he does it better that anyone else. Even if it means sacrificing himself. Obviously FOX, Synger and Ratner knew that and made it into 3 blockbusters. Had they gone the other way with "James Marsden in X-Men", we would not have had ONE sequel or any other comic book movies. X1 began the Marvel cinematic revolution that led to Spider Man and DC's Batman Begins. It began that revolution because it had a hero that anybody would pick over Cyclops any day...
He isn't a natural born leader.
They showcased that much in the first film.
Boy Thomas, you're really taking this movie seriously.
Alright, dude, I thought it was a typo at first but the man's last name is Singer. Not Synger.
Second, Wolverine was not MEANT to be a leader. He's always been the character on the side and that's part of what makes him cool in the first place. That's why it was exciting to see him get his own series and that's why it was exciting every time new info was revealed about the mysterious member of the X-men that people knew little about. He was not meant to be in the forefront.
The best comparison I can make is to Han Solo. He's cool as hell but lord knows he isn't and SHOULDN'T be the star of the original Star Wars Trilogy. He's the cool mercenary that makes the funny jokes.
Wolverine is one of my favorite Marvel characters and my favorite X-man but putting him in the forefront to me always felt like making Gambit or Rogue a leader. Especially when you have people like Storm and Cyclops that would make better team leaders. Hell, didn't Xavier leave the team to Storm in X3 in the first place? What happened to that? Every character has a role on the team. Wolverine is the bruiser, not the tactical leader.
Wolverine is NOT a leader. Not in any way shape or form. He's a loner. The first film set this up perfectly. X3 was ridiculous, and far fetched. Logan is not a leader!!!!
Not to mention the second film. Guy was perfectly in character in both. Pretty much saying "Screw this. I'll catch up with you guys later." every time they go out on a mission together. He did the same thing in X3 but by the end of the movie they blacked out Cyclops' name and put Wolverine in it's place and it really became a "WTF?" kind of situation.
Holy ****, he got banned! ...Why did that surprise me?
Wolverine is not a natural leader, imo. He can (and will) become one in desperate situations, but if he had a say-so and there were other options, he wouldn't be the one to lead.
TL was banned!?
That's a pretty good way of putting it.
He became to loose with his tongue. Bad decision.
Really? Well, seeing as how Wolverine has done this many times I wouldn't say so. For example, one of the first times the X-men fought Magneto, Wolverine simply rushed head on and was thrown into a wall like nothing.
Wolverine has on multiple occasions lept into battle without listening to the rest of the team, and on many occasions it has resulted in himself being thrown out of the fight injured.
Granted, Wolverine is a better team player now, but when he started out he was a lose cannon, and he still has the tendancy to simply ignore orders and jump into battle.
He wasn't reflecting fan mentality. He was relflecting an early team dynamic in the x-men comics. Have you even read any of the older comics? This was something that happened often.
The original X-men comic died because the writing was boring and the characters were one-dimensional. Yes, Wolverine is the most popular X-men, but Claremont made that comic popular because he made all the characters well rounded, not just Wolverine.
Wrong, there have been many X-comics without Wolverine. Wolverine is the most popular X-man, yes, but to say that there is no X-men without Wolverine is simply ignorant and wrong.
I agree that Wolverine is a warrior, but to say that Cyclops isn't truly shows how little you know about the X-men. Have you ever read the Pheonix saga? Cyclops and Pheonix were the last two X-men standing against the Shi'ar guard. Not Wolverine. Cyclops was ready to die for the woman he loved. He is a warrior.
And honestly, when has Wolverine been a leader? He's the loner, not the leader. He doesn't like to be in the spotlight, he doesn't give long hearty speaches. He fights, and he does what he wants. If Wolverine is ever the leader its the lead by example kind, one that doesn't talk much and just fights as hard as he can.
Really? That's funny because they had Wolverine act almost exactly like Cyclops in most of the movies. The only time he actually acted like the comic Wolverine was in the first movie a bit, and then when he went nuts on the guys in the Mansion in X2, and not at all in X3. In X3 he acted exactly as cyclops would, he never acted like Wolverine.
Wolverine's character in the comics is a tough, gritty, violent warrior. A man who struggles with his inner beast and fights to keep his animalistic side at bay. A man who's been tortured by a government he doesn't even care about, and a man who strives to be an honorable Samurai but always falls just short of the mark.
Was any of that present in the X-men movies? No, it wasn't. Sure he was a little gruff, but after that, he acted just like Cyclops. He gave reassuring speaches to the X-men and led his team into battle. Wolverine in the comics doesn't do that.
So if you think the Wolverine in the movies is the same Wolverine as in the comics, then you really haven't read many Wolverine comics, because the character in the movies was not the character in the source material.
I thought TL was okay, I'm surprised he was banned. He was passionate about what he said, and it does take a bit of patience to deal with some of the people on here so I'm not surprised at the occasional time when tempers are lost. I've lost my temper a few times.
This thread needs a poll
No wolverine is not a natural leader. The guys a wandering decades old loner.
THOMAS LOGAN was banned? Awh, I enjoyed his man-crush on Kevin Nash.
I think Claremont said something quotable about Wolverine's ability to lead, I'll try to dig it up...
Yes and no. Logan's like an Alpha dog. If the X-men were a pack of Wolves of course he would be the biggest, baddest and have the X-men in tow behind him. However they don't work like that.
He might have made it as a Weapon X squad leader. He's definitely not Brass material like General or such. From what I'm aware of Wolverine isn't stupid (not the brightest either) but he is cunning. He knows how to fight with more than just his fists and claws. So he could lead, but not the X-men. Not for long anyway.
I just read Wolverine #85 (1994) and there was this odd scene; Wolverine meets up with Cyclops and Jean at the Muir Island and says to Scott "You lead. It's been too long since I've been doing team work."
You know, wouldn't it be obvious that Scott should lead? Or he could have said it because he (and Cable) were the only ones knowing what's happening on the Muir Island. Scott and Jean didn't know what was going on. But he still didn't want to lead Scott though he knew what was going on.
That's annoying, I was looking forward to what he'd try to say back. Wonder what he got banned for?
What makes someone a natural leader? Is it the ability to become a leader when needed, or someone who actually seeks out a leadership role? I think both are equally as valid. You can be a natural leader, in my opinion, without necessarily expressing that. I have been told that I am a natural at several careers, but I haven't chosen to follow those paths...