So which Wolverine are we gonna see? Sympathetic-Cinema Wolverine or Comic Wolvy?

[WeaponXProject]

They can SAY what they want. They can SHOW what they want in a few stories. That doesn't make him, in the context of his place in the Marvel universe and the X-Men mythology, strictly fit the definition of the concept of a loner. I'll give you that he's gruff, but the best that can be said about his interaction with others is that "sometimes" he's a loner. I mean, how many times has Wolverine "teamed up" with people, gone into battle with the X-Men, etc, etc, etc. Someone who constantly fights with a team of people cannot be a loner. If you want to believe that people who sometimes do things alone are "loners", you go right ahead.



Really? So Logan has no friends? He never seeks out friendship, or assistance from friends?



I see...so his status as one of the major members of the X-Men, as a mentor to the younger members... that isn't part who he is?



Uh...no. You can't just remove the character from his significance as part of the team.



Everyone can do that sometimes. A lot of of the time Wolverine pitches right in, flies with the team, and does go with the flow.



Because he's alone every so often? He's not a textbook example of a loner anymore than Batman is.



Really? Show me how his actions and persona fit the definition of the concept of loner.

You know a loner who has been in groups? Ok...are they still in groups? Because if they are, this person you know, I have news for you, if they are in groups more often than they are not...they are NOT an actual loner.



Sure. Sometimes, like most of us do. It's called being self-reliant.



As we all do from time to time.



Except when he's found with Jubilee...or Nightcrawler. Or Jean.



No, my term for loner comes from the dictionary. My term involves what the term actually means. Not what people who don't know what it means think it means.

In the comic books, Wolverine is not a loner in any real sense of the word. He cannot be, as long as he is a willing participant of Alpha Flight, the X-Men, or any other superteam or group of friends and allies. He may want to be. He may have been at one point, and he may try to be again sometimes because he's socially awkward. But he always comes back to the X-Men, to allies and friends, and he values these things and even seeks them out, and thus he is not, in the general sense of the character, an actual loner.



When he has a nightmare and can't control his anger and rage, and stabs Rogue in X-MEN. When he goes ape**** in the mansion in X2, and during his fight with Deathstrike at a certain point. When he's in the forest in X3.

Well I see what you are saying with the team aspect. As you continued to say over and over that he works in teams. So I guess his personality to you is not "back off", "I go my own road". In the Origins comics, he is off in the woods on his own. He is not very talkative. He's hunting, working and he is alone.

You literally looked up the definition and took it at face value. Of course he is gonna have more than just a one dimensional side. Of course he is going to join a operation or group that stands for honor and moral code. Of course he can have friends. Of course he can have relationships But when you deny his personality you are wrong.

As a mentor to the younger X-Men he may, with not many examples I am sure, be a mentor to the younger ones. He has experienced alot. And alot he doesn't want to talk about but he can still help those from making the mistakes he made.

Yes I know a loner who is in a group. He is quiet, shy and not always a participant. He does things on his own. He is not outspoken. He speaks when he believes he has to. Very introverted. A loner.

I am so sick of you bringing up groups and not talking of his personality. Talk about who he is and not what he has done. Do you know the difference? An example of what he has done for a team does not describe his character. There is more to characters than what's on top.

As for the feral, the one example is his bad dream and he stabs Rogue. The X-3 in the woods he is using military tactics. He doesn't freak out and just stab everybody. In X-2 he is fighting back, hiding against a wall to attack. Jumps off the balcony to attack. He not just stabbing from room to room. He was not out of control in any sense.

I am done with this conversation completely. Wolverine to you is more of X-3 Wolverine. That is not who he is. I have read X-Men comics and Wolverine comics for years and know who he is. I think I will take the writers of the comics opinion over a blogger who refuses to be wrong. That seems to be the smarter route. But they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[The Guard]

Well I see what you are saying with the team aspect. As you continued to say over and over that he works in teams. So I guess his personality to you is not "back off", "I go my own road". In the Origins comics, he is off in the woods on his own. He is not very talkative. He's hunting, working and he is alone.

Going your own road means nothing in the context of being a loner if you keep coming back to groups time and time again, and not being a loner in the end result. Again, he may want to be a loner. But he isn't. It's been shown time and time again.

I will give you that he occassionally TRIES to be a loner. But he isn't one, in the grand scheme of things.

You literally looked up the definition and took it at face value.

Umm...as opposed to making up my own definition of what something means? What the definition is is what the concept is. You want to go "But...but Logan has elements of a loner", go right ahead. He is not a loner overall.

Of course he is gonna have more than just a one dimensional side. Of course he is going to join a operation or group that stands for honor and moral code. Of course he can have friends. Of course he can have relationships But when you deny his personality you are wrong.

Uh...if he is in groups, joins groups, seeks out allies and friends, etc, then he's not a loner.

As a mentor to the younger X-Men he may, with not many examples I am sure, be a mentor to the younger ones. He has experienced alot. And alot he doesn't want to talk about but he can still help those from making the mistakes he made.

Read a comic book that was written before 2005. Logan's always had a mentor element to him.

Yes I know a loner who is in a group. He is quiet, shy and not always a participant. He does things on his own. He is not outspoken. He speaks when he believes he has to. Very introverted. A loner.

You are describing someone who is shy, who may be an introvert. Not a loner. If he belongs to groups, he is not, in fact, a loner.

I am so sick of you bringing up groups and not talking of his personality.

And I'm sick of you inventing your own definition of loner because you don't like what you're hearing, and my logical assessment of the situation.

Talk about who he is and not what he has done. Do you know the difference?

Do you? Do you understand that what someone has done does inform who someone is?

An example of what he has done for a team does not describe his character. There is more to characters than what's on top.

You're right. What's "on top" is Wolverine's attempt to be a loner. Dig deeper, to what is beneath that, to his true self, and you'll see he cherishes family, friends, and allies.

I never said He is "only a member of a team". Please don't confuse the issue.

As for the feral, the one example is his bad dream and he stabs Rogue. The X-3 in the woods he is using military tactics. He doesn't freak out and just stab everybody. In X-2 he is fighting back, hiding against a wall to attack. Jumps off the balcony to attack. He not just stabbing from room to room. He was not out of control in any sense.

It would not appear that you are comparing these scenes to others. In the scenes I mentioned, he clearly has essentially lost control, and is enraged to the point where he cannot control himself, compared to his fighting style in the remainder of the films. The filmmakers themselves have talked about these being representative of his berserker rage, so...

 

[Savage]

Okay, on the berzerker rage subject, the closest we've seen is the forest attack in X3 and maybe his fight with Mystique in X1 where he went crazy swinging his arms and slashing through everything and it was up to Mystique to defend herself. The entire point of a berzerker rage is that he stops thinking and simply acts. This means that there are no tactics. No sneaking around a corner to stab a guy in the foot. No pausing and getting into a fighting stance. None of that. Just a dude flipping out on everything in his path. In my opinion we've come close but never truly experienced that. Friggin' Blade has shown more berzerker rage than Wolverine.

Let's see this guy running and cutting through people and throwing headbutts and spinkicks. Just a grown man throwing a frightening tantrum. Not this "I'll wait here while they come around and if I scream real loud it counts as a berzerker rage!" stuff. A fight between Wolverine and Sabretooth should look like a smaller scale version of Hulk vs. Abomination. This thing should look like two dogs locked in a cage to fight each other. There should be no tactics involved. I mean if he gets hit he shouldn't even flinch but either roll with it or go right through it. I want this thing to look like some youtube video of two guys pulling shirts and beating the crap out of each other and pushing each other on everything and using every object imaginable. Just real vicious "I don't even realize how much pain I'm in until the fight is over." stuff.

 

[[A]]

^ what about that bit in X2, where the SWAT* team -or whatever- breaks in at the Xavier institute?



*was it SWAT?

 

[Savage]

Well it's not like he ran screaming through the mansion calling all attention on himself and slicing everything in his path and causing collateral damage. You call that berzerker rage? The man was using stealth. He should be a miniature Hulk. That's what was fun about that fight in the books in the first place.

 

[[A]]

no no, I meant that one bit that last like 2 seconds where he stick the guy to the fridge

 

[Savage]

lol Well he had moments like that in all the movies. I guess all a berzerker rage takes is screaming while you stab people as opposed to just being silent.

 

[Congo Jack]

A fight between Wolverine and Sabretooth...should look like two dogs locked in a cage to fight each other.

That's a perfect description.

 

[WeaponXProject]

Okay, on the berzerker rage subject, the closest we've seen is the forest attack in X3 and maybe his fight with Mystique in X1 where he went crazy swinging his arms and slashing through everything and it was up to Mystique to defend herself. The entire point of a berzerker rage is that he stops thinking and simply acts. This means that there are no tactics. No sneaking around a corner to stab a guy in the foot. No pausing and getting into a fighting stance. None of that. Just a dude flipping out on everything in his path. In my opinion we've come close but never truly experienced that. Friggin' Blade has shown more berzerker rage than Wolverine.

Let's see this guy running and cutting through people and throwing headbutts and spinkicks. Just a grown man throwing a frightening tantrum. Not this "I'll wait here while they come around and if I scream real loud it counts as a berzerker rage!" stuff. A fight between Wolverine and Sabretooth should look like a smaller scale version of Hulk vs. Abomination. This thing should look like two dogs locked in a cage to fight each other. There should be no tactics involved. I mean if he gets hit he shouldn't even flinch but either roll with it or go right through it. I want this thing to look like some youtube video of two guys pulling shirts and beating the crap out of each other and pushing each other on everything and using every object imaginable. Just real vicious "I don't even realize how much pain I'm in until the fight is over." stuff.

That's what I said. But I am wrong according to this other guy.


I am not gonna challenge anybody's knowledge of a character but I have been reading the Wolverine and X-Men comics since 1989. I perceive the character differently than Guard. He may not be Webster's definition of loner but he is the writer's description and how I have thought of him. Oh well. I am wrong bc I have less posts than him. And he has friends to come reinforce him. But I know who the character is and he is the character the creators and writers have described time and time again. Just bc I said it and its not what www. put your dictionary site here .com means. A direct definition is always the precise connotation of things. Right? Logan is also an honorable person. He has a high moral standard He seeks to help others over his own skin. He doesn't understand himself completely which keeps himself from having closure. He is highly intelligent though he speaks rough and short.

 

[[A]]

lol Well he had moments like that in all the movies. I guess all a berzerker rage takes is screaming while you stab people as opposed to just being silent.

yeah too bad we're not getting any more of that stuff

 

[The Guard]

Okay, on the berzerker rage subject, the closest we've seen is the forest attack in X3 and maybe his fight with Mystique in X1 where he went crazy swinging his arms and slashing through everything and it was up to Mystique to defend herself. The entire point of a berzerker rage is that he stops thinking and simply acts. This means that there are no tactics. No sneaking around a corner to stab a guy in the foot. No pausing and getting into a fighting stance. None of that. Just a dude flipping out on everything in his path. In my opinion we've come close but never truly experienced that. Friggin' Blade has shown more berzerker rage than Wolverine.

I don't know what to tell you. I won't say we've see a great rendition of the berserker rage, but we have clearly seen what filmmakers intended to be the berserker rage. I've been pretty clear about the reason we haven't seen anything more "extended". It's difficult to maintain that kind of energy and physical movement without being on something.

Well it's not like he ran screaming through the mansion calling all attention on himself and slicing everything in his path and causing collateral damage. You call that berzerker rage? The man was using stealth. He should be a miniature Hulk. That's what was fun about that fight in the books in the first place.

He's not in a berserker rage the entire time. It begins when he kills the SWAT member in the kitchen (scre, and he sort of goes in and out of it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

lol Well he had moments like that in all the movies. I guess all a berzerker rage takes is screaming while you stab people as opposed to just being silent.

What about when he is running at those 2 soldiers screaming, one of them shoots him with a tranquilizer and he doesnt even flinch, and proceed to rip them apart with his claws? Is that not Berserker rage also?

 

[WeaponXProject]

What about when he is running at those 2 soldiers screaming, one of them shoots him with a tranquilizer and he doesnt even flinch, and proceed to rip them apart with his claws? Is that not Berserker rage also?

That scene and the Rogue scene where he is having a nightmare about Weapon X are all I can say are the scenes we have seen. I'm not saying Hugh didn't have all the screen time. I just wish it would have been more but it was only PG-13 so that's all we'll get probably.

But if Joker can cut smiles into people's faces then we should be able to have Wolverine lose it and stab people going nuts in a PG-13 movie.

 

[The Guard]

What about when he is running at those 2 soldiers screaming, one of them shoots him with a tranquilizer and he doesnt even flinch, and proceed to rip them apart with his claws? Is that not Berserker rage also?

Yes. The filmmakers clearly didn't just want to have him flailing about wildly, as it would ikely have looked silly.

 

[Savage]

I guess I never considered berzerker rage a short moment but a state he enters where he becomes inconsolable and isn't even thinking about his next move. Hence my comparison to Hulk. The whole point of a berzerker rage is that he becomes more animal than man and that's the part he's scared of. It's the part that Sabretooth keeps rubbing in Wolverine's face because he relishes it while Wolverine abhors it. Berzerker rage is not an act but a state of mind. If all Logan is afraid of is running at a soldier screaming then I don't see what he has to fear. He seems to be in perfect control of it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It looks like they're going with some of the story from Quesada/Jemas/Jenkin's ORIGIN and then the Weapon X stuff.

I have recently bought this, is it a good read?

 

[Congo Jack]

I have recently bought this, is it a good read?

I suppose if you think knowing Logan's origin is a good thing - then you'll probably like it. Personally I think it's a godawful concept, but it's quite well written; and it has beautiful art by Andy Kubert and Richard Isanove.

 

[WeaponXProject]

I suppose if you think knowing Logan's origin is a good thing - then you'll probably like it. Personally I think it's a godawful concept, but it's quite well written; and it has beautiful art by Andy Kubert and Richard Isanove.

I think sometimes knowing the whole origin can ruin or tarnish a character. I think it is better when your mind gets an idea because you don't really know and that makes it more interesting.

Some of the better characters in movie history or novel have been...well not ruined...but sometimes don't live up to the expectations.

Darth Vader was tarnished.
Michael Myers from Halloween tarnished.
Hannibal Lector in Hannibal Rising tarnished.

On the other hand you can get some fortunates with Batman Begins. But his past is mostly known.