Worst MCU movie?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Aside from some dated CGI, I've never understood the flack it gets. It's not a complex film by any means, but the pacing is snappy (definite Feige material) and there's so much MCU goodness packed in there.

I would have preferred they kept the Norton gun scene to give it the emotional element though. Really wish I understood why they chose to cut it.

Agreed with all of this. I still prefer Hulk personally but am a fan of TIH as well.

I'd personally take TIH over TDW, IM 2 & 3, and Ant Man. They all have far more flaws and are more inconsistent imo.

Apart from Ant Man I totally agree.

 

[MichaelChen]

If it's successful material, then it has already validated itself. The burden then falls to the people changing the material in the adaptation to prove that the alteration is both necessary and better. Based on the outrage from Iron Man fans, both readers and movie franchise, Marvel Studios didn't do that with Mandarin.

Except Killian IS Silver Age Mandarin, just painted white.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his fiefdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been a real, this? No, he's a terrorist, he's actually the opposite of the military industrial complex. In fact some of the things he says makes him out to be a victim of the military industrial complex, essentially their Magneto.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been real, a mad scientist? No, he's a terrorist.

(3)The Mandarin possesses superhuman martial arts abilities, the most common example of which is the ability to karate-chop chunks off of the Iron Man armor, and generally physically enhancing himself with chi. As corollary to this, he's extremely athletic.

Is Kingsley's character a superhuman martial artist? No, even if he were real, he's still a weak old man, entirely dependent on his organization to do anything physical of consequence.

(4)The Mandarin often schemes to cause world war III so he can benefit from everyone being at war with everyone else.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he were real, trying to get everyone to go to war with everyone else? No, he's at war with America himself. He seems to want some vague terrorist goal, it's never spelled out, but his bitter victim speeches imply he wants something comparable to America and Israel completely withdrawing from Palestine, something comparable to that if not literally that. Basically he wants peace to follow some anti-american political goal succeeding.

Kingsley's character fails The Mandarin test, and would have failed it even if he really was what he appeared to be early on.

Now let's try that again with Killian.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his kingdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Killian a one-man version of the military industrial complex? He's a member of the military industrial complex, he embodies the corruption of the military industrial complex to the point of caricature. He's using taxpayer money to turn himself into a super-soldier, and it's part of a scheme to get America spending even more money on his super-soldier program. While it may not literally make America flat broke by itself, his scheme is a massive example, a caricatured example, of the corrupt and bloated military spending that is causing America such budget problems.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.
Is Killian a Mad Scientist? Yup. It's right there from the moment he pops up.

(3)The Mandarin possesses superhuman martial arts abilities, the most common example of which is the ability to karate-chop chunks off of the Iron Man armor, and generally physically enhancing himself with chi. As corollary to this, he's extremely athletic.

Is Killian a superhuman martial artist? Welllll, yes and no. He's not literally superhumanly skilled, but he's superhuman and he uses karate-chops to chop the leg off one armor and chop another armor in half. He's not the Chi-channeling mystic monster comic Mandarin is, but for a simplified movie character he's fairly close. He's also played by a guy who is fairly tall and athletic, the star of several action-movies.

(4)The Mandarin often schemes to cause world war III so he can benefit from everyone being at war with everyone else.

Is Killian scheming to cause World War III so he can benefit from everyone being a war with everyone else? Yes and no, but mostly yes. He's scheming to control and render permanent the war on terror, which is to the modern world was World War III was to the 60's.

Killian passes The Mandarin test, or at the very least comes very close for simplified 2013 movie character. He certainly comes much closer than Kingsley's character, who would fail utterly even if he were not a fraud.


I post this because I keep hearing people claim that Kingsley's character, at least pre-reveal, was an authentic take on the Mandarin and I wonder what they mean.

 

[metaphysician]

*gets some popcorn, and waits for the inevitable "But magic rings!"*

 

[Mjölnir]

Very good post two steps above. I don't have any issues with people liking the Mandarin that Kingsley played but I never understood the complaints about liking that and complaining that Killian wasn't like the Mandarin in the comics.

 

[Flint Marko]

Said it before and I'll say it again: it amazes me how many Mandarin "fans" came out of the woodwork in early May 2013 to voice their displeasure with the twist.

 

[2kt09]

I would change my vote if I could due to sheer personal preference.

4-way tie between The Avengers, Age of Ultron, GOTG and Ant-Man.

 

[Loki882]

Oh and BTW, the rings are alien tech, not magic. If Shane Black, and some people here, are going so condescendingly dismiss those that disagree with them, then they should at least no their basic research first.

 

[Mr.T]

Thor TDW for me followed by IM3. Iron Man is my favorite MCU hero and his first film is still the best MCU movie (IMO) but I absolutely hated the "twist", Harley, and Super Pepper. And yes, I would agree Killian is kind of Whitey Mandarin, but I still hated it.

 

[Guard82]

Said it before and I'll say it again: it amazes me how many Mandarin "fans" came out of the woodwork in early May 2013 to voice their displeasure with the twist.

Now, Flint, don't be presumptuous. I obviously can't speak for everybody, and I can only speak for myself, but I personally have always been a fan of the Mandarin because I've always found him an intriguing villain, and I'm sure others feel the same. And just to be clear, I still love IM3 and still got a laugh from the twist. Differing opinions about the use of the Mandarin in the movie didn't prevent me from enjoying the film.

Just so we're clear, I'm not criticizing you for not having an attachment to the Mandarin character. I'm just saying that I personally have always enjoyed the Mandarin well before May 2013.

 

[Guard82]

Very good post two steps above. I don't have any issues with people liking the Mandarin that Kingsley played but I never understood the complaints about liking that and complaining that Killian wasn't like the Mandarin in the comics.

Personally, I really like the Mandarin that Kingsley played because he was interesting and intriguing, notwithstanding the twist, which I still found clever. As far as Aldrich Killian is concerned, I thought he was a decent antagonist and well-acted by Guy Pearce, but I also thought he was kind of generic and unimaginative. I basically felt the same about Obadiah Stane and Justin Hammer in the earlier films. Stane, Hammer, and Killian were all pretty good antagonists, but they also felt a bit too generic and interchangeable to be truly memorable.

As for Killian's character, I found him to be basically a composite mix of several characters from the comics: the Scientist Supreme of A.I.M.; the comic-book Killian from Extremis; and a little of Mallen, Mandarin, and Fin Fang Foom added in. Those who say he wasn't like the Mandarin are probably referring to the fact that Killian wasn't as regal as the Mandarin in the comics, or regal like the Mandarin played by Kingsley. I understand that. But I still enjoyed the movie regardless and I liked what both Pearce and Kingsley brought to their roles.

 

[MichaelChen]

Killian wasn't as regal as the Mandarin in the comics,.

Yeah, that comic Mandarin sure is regal.
Comic Mandarin is a lunatic.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Except Killian IS Silver Age Mandarin, just painted white.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his fiefdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been a real, this? No, he's a terrorist, he's actually the opposite of the military industrial complex. In fact some of the things he says makes him out to be a victim of the military industrial complex, essentially their Magneto.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.

.

Neither Killian or Trevor Slattery bore much resemblance to comic Mandarin. I know the character has gone through several re-imaginings, but Mandarin's core story is that he was born in China, raised by a fanatical relative after his parents died early, became bitter after his funds were exhausted and he lost his home, trained relentlessly in martial arts, and eventually wielded 10 specialized rings made of alien tech that turned his hands green. Does any of that resemble the fire-breather or drunken actor in IM3?

I had no problem with either character in terms of how they worked in the film, only that an iconic villain's name was invoked in a way that disrespected the comic's history and the hopes of the fans. Original villains for a film can be OK, but INOs are unacceptable.

 

[MichaelChen]

Neither Killian or Trevor Slattery bore much resemblance to comic Mandarin. I know the character has gone through several re-imaginings, but Mandarin's core story is that he was born in China, raised by a fanatical relative after his parents died early, became bitter after his funds were exhausted and he lost his home, trained relentlessly in martial arts, and eventually wielded 10 specialized rings made of alien tech that turned his hands green. Does any of that resemble the fire-breather or drunken actor in IM3?

I had no problem with either character in terms of how they worked in the film, only that an iconic villain's name was invoked in a way that disrespected the comic's history and the hopes of the fans. Original villains for a film can be OK, but INOs are unacceptable.

That's not accurate.
(1)His hands were green for exactly one story in the nineties. It's not a standard or defining aspect of his character.
(2)His training himself into a super-soldier was the cause of him losing his money, not something he did afterward. He squandered his fortune turning himself into a living vanity project. And since he was an aristocrat, squandering that fortune also ruined the lives of everyone employed by his fiefdom. He's clearly a metaphor for the military-industrial-complex.
(3)Looting the rings was just the first of his many attempts to gain power by stealing tech and/or kidnapping scientists. The rings themselves are less important than his defining pattern of looting/stealing/kidnapping in the name of power, something The Killiandarin embodies perfectly.

Indeed, The Killiandarin is basically 2 and 3 fused together to make a simple movie that captures the essence of the character. Instead of squandering his fiefdom's money training himself into an Iron Fist type, and then going off and becoming a looter/thief/kidnapper for yet more power, he uses thieving and kidnapping to become a sci-fi Iron Fist.

That captures the essence of the character wonderfully without making the movie four hours long.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Now, Flint, don't be presumptuous. I obviously can't speak for everybody, and I can only speak for myself, but I personally have always been a fan of the Mandarin because I've always found him an intriguing villain, and I'm sure others feel the same. And just to be clear, I still love IM3 and still got a laugh from the twist. Differing opinions about the use of the Mandarin in the movie didn't prevent me from enjoying the film.

Just so we're clear, I'm not criticizing you for not having an attachment to the Mandarin character. I'm just saying that I personally have always enjoyed the Mandarin well before May 2013.

 

[Flint Marko]

Now, Flint, don't be presumptuous. I obviously can't speak for everybody, and I can only speak for myself, but I personally have always been a fan of the Mandarin because I've always found him an intriguing villain, and I'm sure others feel the same. And just to be clear, I still love IM3 and still got a laugh from the twist. Differing opinions about the use of the Mandarin in the movie didn't prevent me from enjoying the film.

Just so we're clear, I'm not criticizing you for not having an attachment to the Mandarin character. I'm just saying that I personally have always enjoyed the Mandarin well before May 2013.

I was largely being facetious but my point stands. I'm not saying there weren't people who liked the Mandarin and were excited to see him on the big screen. I'm simply saying that there were far more who jumped on the bandwagon when they were entirely unfamiliar with the character.

 

[OcStat]

I enjoyed the Mandarin as presented by the Knaufs and Fraction, honestly the only two stories I've read with the character, and while the film takes creative liberties with him I can say the final product does stay true to the core of the character enough to make it a valid interpretation of the Mandarin.

That being said, I could never rank Iron Man 3 as one of the worst MCU films. It has superb action sequences, plenty of surprises, the first film in it's series to push Tony Stark into uncharted terrain, great dialogue and yes, an intriguing villain.

 

[metaphysician]

Oh and BTW, the rings are alien tech, not magic. If Shane Black, and some people here, are going so condescendingly dismiss those that disagree with them, then they should at least no their basic research first.

This is actually not true, for almost all of the Mandarin's history ( it might have been changed in very recent retcons ). Despite coming from an alien ship, they were consistently described as magic rings.

 

[MichaelChen]

I was largely being facetious but my point stands. I'm not saying there weren't people who liked the Mandarin and were excited to see him on the big screen. I'm simply saying that there were far more who jumped on the bandwagon when they were entirely unfamiliar with the character.

The funny thing is they basically bought into the image Mandarin presented of himself, never realizing that Stan Lee wrote him as a subversion. He's a character who looks like Fu Manchu for about five seconds, and then almost immediately is revealed as more of a Roman Sionis type. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eAGyqD46rc

It's weirdly funny, the equivalent of having people insist that Kingpin is a humble spice-dealer.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Thor TDW for me followed by IM3. Iron Man is my favorite MCU hero and his first film is still the best MCU movie (IMO) but I absolutely hated the "twist", Harley, and Super Pepper. And yes, I would agree Killian is kind of Whitey Mandarin, but I still hated it.

I thought Harley kid was funny, but agree about the other things.

 

[Gerontophobe]

I would definitely rank TDW last, followed by TIH and IM2. I get that a lot of people feel passionately about IM3 but I enjoyed it (certainly more so than IM2). In the end, I think debating the worst MCU movie is kind of pointless since they've all been at least okay (to me) and many have been great.

 

[Slushy]

Really wish I understood why they chose to cut it.

Suicide is a touchy subject.

I post this because I keep hearing people claim that Kingsley's character, at least pre-reveal, was an authentic take on the Mandarin and I wonder what they mean.

Terrorist image > ******** scientist Human Torch wannabe


I wanted my Kung Fu badass, but if they were going to change things to be PC compliant, Osama Bin Laden would've worked for me.

 

[Chris B]

I enjoyed the Mandarin as presented by the Knaufs and Fraction, honestly the only two stories I've read with the character, and while the film takes creative liberties with him I can say the final product does stay true to the core of the character enough to make it a valid interpretation of the Mandarin.

That being said, I could never rank Iron Man 3 as one of the worst MCU films. It has superb action sequences, plenty of surprises, the first film in it's series to push Tony Stark into uncharted terrain, great dialogue and yes, an intriguing villain.

I agree. Iron Man 3 falls into the middle-tier of MCU films for me. While I don't think the twist was a bad idea on paper, I do think it was executed poorly.

 

[Flint Marko]

I like the twist but I'll agree it's in the middle of their movies if we ranked them.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I like the twist but I'll agree it's in the middle of their movies if we ranked them.

I have it around seventh.

 

[Lantern Venom]

That's not accurate.
(1)His hands were green for exactly one story in the nineties. It's not a standard or defining aspect of his character.
(2)His training himself into a super-soldier was the cause of him losing his money, not something he did afterward. He squandered his fortune turning himself into a living vanity project. And since he was an aristocrat, squandering that fortune also ruined the lives of everyone employed by his fiefdom. He's clearly a metaphor for the military-industrial-complex.
(3)Looting the rings was just the first of his many attempts to gain power by stealing tech and/or kidnapping scientists. The rings themselves are less important than his defining pattern of looting/stealing/kidnapping in the name of power, something The Killiandarin embodies perfectly.

Indeed, The Killiandarin is basically 2 and 3 fused together to make a simple movie that captures the essence of the character. Instead of squandering his fiefdom's money training himself into an Iron Fist type, and then going off and becoming a looter/thief/kidnapper for yet more power, he uses thieving and kidnapping to become a sci-fi Iron Fist.

That captures the essence of the character wonderfully without making the movie four hours long.

There's no essence, just a loose resemblance. Archetypal mad scientist characters are all over CBMs and science fiction, so what we saw didn't define Killian specifically as Mandarin. The backstory of lethal martial arts training and modus operandi with the rings just weren't there.

Again, I didn't have a problem with the Killian character or the actor misdirection storyline, only that an iconic villain's name was clearly misrepresented. That's a cheap and disrespectful way to go, and I certainly hope Marvel Studios doesn't do that again. Even so, IM3 was still much better than Ant-Man.