Comics Would Green Goblin not have been popular...

[Dark Phantom]

...if he didn't kill Gwen Stacey?

I love the character of Green Goblin. He such a kick*ss villian like Doc Ock. But I've always wondered if other fans liked Green Goblin before he killed Gwen Stacey.

When you think about it in retrospect, he's just your average villian who dresses up like a funny creature and has themed weapons. I would think that fans never considered GG to be that much of threat until he did the unthinkable....killing Gwen Stacey!

So, if Green Goblin didn't kill Gwen Stacey, would you have still considered him a good villian? or would you rank him on par or below villians like Sandman and Mysterio?

 

[spider greg]

Maybe, but he's also the 1st villain to discover Spidey's secret identity, that's probably what already put him over the top. Did I mention GG (Norman) should still be dead?

 

[Themanofbat]

Of course he was a fan favorite.... as mentioned, he's the first villain (and the only one at the time) to discover Spidey's identity, and to make matters worse for Peter, he's his best friend's Dad.

Re-Read Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2 and ASM #96, 97 & 98 (both of which came out prior to the Death of Gwne) and you can just tell that he's a mean green machine that the fans just loved to hate.

Of course, he's not as good as Doc Ock...

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, he would still be popular.

Stan used him and Ock the most during his run before Gwen died. It's clear they were the major fan favorites out of the villains.

 

[pussywillow1972]

Yeah, he would still be popular.

Stan used him and Ock the most during his run before Gwen died. It's clear they were the major fan favorites out of the villains.

I think Stan may have tired a bit with GG after issue 40. He was introduced in #14, used again in #17, came back for several issues during the "Big Man" set of stories in the early #20s, showed up in #39 and 40 and then disappeared from ASM until #97, (with the exception of the SSM mag that Bat mentioned.) So he was used an incredible amount after his initial introduction and then forgotten about, (other than some Norman Osborn appearances,) for almost 5 years. I think he was a great, great villain, like Ock, and perhaps the fact that he was used so sparingly back then contributes to his appeal. He wasn't overused. So maybe, upon further reflection, Stan didn't tire of him, but rather knew the value of the character and didn't want to spoil him by trotting him out every other issue.

 

[wolvie2020]

Actually, GG wasn't a hit at all in the slightest at first... Stan really wanted to create a charachter that knocked people socks off, but it didn't work @ 1st. He kept on bringing him back, but fans didn't bite as much as the other villains, If you actually look at the letters pages, GG's reception was always 50/50. But Stan KNEW he could do something great with him, and didn't give up.

Stan pulled out the big guns, and made GG important, as he became the 1st one to bother finding out who Spidey is. And to make it a unque twist, he decided to reveal him as Harry's Dad. To be honest, the entire execution was a bit rushed, and came off a little forced. Yet, at the same time it was innovative, nothing like that was done before, even with all it's faults of execution, it was a great idea.

Funnily enough, this was the reason why Ditko left, it was the nail in the coffin. Ditko felt like GG should be no one important, to reflect the uselessness of this behaviour, Stan felt like he wanted more drama for the fans. While I dig Ditko's art, I'm glad Stan took his route.

After this, Stan made Harry and co. a pivitol part of Peter's life, mainly as Peter decided he needed to stay close to Harry, now that he knew GG was Harry's Dad. They wrote Harry and Pete closer than ever, and THIS is where the interesting dynamic came about. The selective memory of Norman, and the gang of friends revolving somewhat around Pete and Harry, added a great layer of a soap opera style element.

GG didn't show up that often, due to the selective memory, but NOW when he showed up, it had a different impact. And to add to that, Harry having a bad relationship with his Father, leading to his drug addiction, really created an interesting dynamic

So imo, GG wasn't a great villain, especially when he was at his most powerful. It was the tension, and the relationship between all the charachters, AFTER Spidey took him down and gave him amnesia, that made GG into a headspinning charachter

Also imo, GG entered greatness into the Spidey mytho's after offing Gwen. That is just a pinnacle moment, that changed the charachter altogether. You'll notice, after his death, he became MUCH more of a menace, and far more disturbing. No other person went that far, let alone, pull it off. Many villains would want to, but doing it, and taking it that personally, is a different story.

In death, people can gain great infamy

 

[pussywillow1972]

Actually, GG wasn't a hit at all in the slightest at first... Stan really wanted to create a charachter that knocked people socks off, but it didn't work @ 1st. He kept on bringing him back, but fans didn't bite as much as the other villains, If you actually look at the letters pages, GG's reception was always 50/50. But Stan KNEW he could do something great with him, and didn't give up.

Stan pulled out the big guns, and made GG important, as he became the 1st one to bother finding out who Spidey is. And to make it a unque twist, he decided to reveal him as Harry's Dad. To be honest, the entire execution was a bit rushed, and came off a little forced. Yet, at the same time it was innovative, nothing like that was done before, even with all it's faults of execution, it was a great idea.

Funnily enough, this was the reason why Ditko left, it was the nail in the coffin. Ditko felt like GG should be no one important, to reflect the uselessness of this behaviour, Stan felt like he wanted more drama for the fans. While I dig Ditko's art, I'm glad Stan took his route.

After this, Stan made Harry and co. a pivitol part of Peter's life, mainly as Peter decided he needed to stay close to Harry, now that he knew GG was Harry's Dad. They wrote Harry and Pete closer than ever, and THIS is where the interesting dynamic came about. The selective memory of Norman, and the gang of friends revolving somewhat around Pete and Harry, added a great layer of a soap opera style element.

GG didn't show up that often, due to the selective memory, but NOW when he showed up, it had a different impact. And to add to that, Harry having a bad relationship with his Father, leading to his drug addiction, really created an interesting dynamic

So imo, GG wasn't a great villain, especially when he was at his most powerful. It was the tension, and the relationship between all the charachters, AFTER Spidey took him down and gave him amnesia, that made GG into a headspinning charachter

Also imo, GG entered greatness into the Spidey mytho's after offing Gwen. That is just a pinnacle moment, that changed the charachter altogether. You'll notice, after his death, he became MUCH more of a menace, and far more disturbing. No other person went that far, let alone, pull it off. Many villains would want to, but doing it, and taking it that personally, is a different story.

In death, people can gain great infamy

I think I remember reading that Ditko wanted GG to be Fredrick Foswell but Stan didn't like that idea. The very first couple of GG stories were a bit weak, but you have to admit that the ones in the #20s were pretty damn good. He took out Spidey, presented him to the underworld as proof of his power to get them to fall in line with him, only to have Spidey bust loose. Great stories. Granted the character became much more important once he learned Spidey's identity and opened up many avenues and aspects of storyline, (something so simple adding so much; pity today's writers can't do that.) I just wish they left Norman dead after #122. Bringing him back in the 90s was as bad, (yes as bad in my opinion,) as giving him stingers.

 

[stillanerd]

I'm inclined to agree with you, wolvie2020. Looking back at some of those early issues of Amazing--courtesy of the Essential volumes--it's hard to imagine that the Green Goblin would be catapulted into the same level as Doc Ock, and even become more noteworthy than the other distinctive villains like The Vulture, Sandman, the Lizard, and Mysterio. Sans the Halloween gimmick, he was the typical "mysterious villain" in which the readers had to guess who he was whenever he appeared. It's because of his rep as being the first to learn Peter Parker was Spider-Man and his involvement in the death of Gwen Stacy that catapulted Norman Osborn into A-list status. And, as you pointed out, it was those moments that were usually followed by the Green Goblin being "removed," first by giving him amnesia and then killing him altogether for one simple reason--the character had become dramatically spent. Sure, Stan was able to utilize the Green Goblin from time to time after he learned Spidey's true identity, but that got pretty old after awhile. And after killing Gwen Stacy, what was left for him but his own death?

Also, the Green Goblin has been pushed into the top tier for another reason--being the architect behind the clone saga. This basically made him Spider-Man's version of Lex Luthor, which is a really bad mischaracterization. While the Green Goblin was a schemer and manipulator, he was always one to take a direct approach, not a behind-the-scenes player. Personally, I prefered Harry Osborn as the Green Goblin because not only is it Peter fighting someone who is his best friend, but it was also a story of a son trying to live up to his father's memory as well as a kind of pseduo "sibling rivalry" between the two. However, the antagonistic relationship with Peter and Osborn is an intriguing one, especially since Osborn apparently sees Peter as the son he always wanted to have but at the same time wanting to destroy him and seeing their conflict as the equivalent of a chess match.

 

[Themanofbat]

I think Stan may have tired a bit with GG after issue 40. He was introduced in #14, used again in #17, came back for several issues during the "Big Man" set of stories in the early #20s, showed up in #39 and 40 and then disappeared from ASM until #97, (with the exception of the SSM mag that Bat mentioned.) So he was used an incredible amount after his initial introduction and then forgotten about, (other than some Norman Osborn appearances,) for almost 5 years. I think he was a great, great villain, like Ock, and perhaps the fact that he was used so sparingly back then contributes to his appeal. He wasn't overused. So maybe, upon further reflection, Stan didn't tire of him, but rather knew the value of the character and didn't want to spoil him by trotting him out every other issue.

Said Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2 came out around ASM #65, so his 3 major appearances (ASM #40, SSMM #2, ASM #96) were split roughly 2 to 2 1/2 years apart.

 

[Geko]

...

Also, the Green Goblin has been pushed into the top tier for another reason--being the architect behind the clone saga. This basically made him Spider-Man's version of Lex Luthor, which is a really bad mischaracterization. While the Green Goblin was a schemer and manipulator, he was always one to take a direct approach, not a behind-the-scenes player. ...

Actually GG's first appearance is in a behind the scenes aspect. Luring him out to New Mexico to be in a movie, then hiring the Enforcers to take him out.

 

[The Joker]

I think I remember reading that Ditko wanted GG to be Fredrick Foswell but Stan didn't like that idea.

I heard Ditko also originally wanted the Goblin to be an actual Goblin. As in a monster. Similar to Ultimate Green Goblin.

But Stan refused, and thought it would be better if he was a villain with a hidden identity. It kept fans guessing for ages as to who he was, even though it was quite a while before we ever saw Norman Osborn hit the pages of ASM.

The very first couple of GG stories were a bit weak

Yeah, they were a bit. That plot with the movie in his first appearance, and then crashing Flash Thompson's Spider-Man fan club, that was a bit lame.

But as you said, they picked up. Especially with the Crime Master story.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Of course he was a fan favorite.... as mentioned, he's the first villain (and the only one at the time) to discover Spidey's identity, and to make matters worse for Peter, he's his best friend's Dad.

Re-Read Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2 and ASM #96, 97 & 98 (both of which came out prior to the Death of Gwne) and you can just tell that he's a mean green machine that the fans just loved to hate.

Of course, he's not as good as Doc Ock...

What he said.

 

[pussywillow1972]

Said Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2 came out around ASM #65, so his 3 major appearances (ASM #40, SSMM #2, ASM #96) were split roughly 2 to 2 1/2 years apart.

That is true, though I always regarded the specialized magazines as sort of outside the canon even though they were part of continuity as they were one offs whose events weren't referred to in the comics. Silly, yes, but that's me.

In any case, I do regard Green Goblin as a great Spidey villain even in the stories before he killed Gwen. They were simply well written and used his villainy in a good fashion. My opinion and I'm sure some will disagree and others agree. I do think what they did with him after his "return" was an abomination.

 

[XSpidercideX]

I love his return. I'm so glad he's back. He's my favorite Spidey villain and his new costume is so cool.

 

[Kevin]

^agreed

 

[Hobgoblin]

I think that the Goblin would have been popular, but perhaps not to the extent that he became. I actually liked that he was a mysterious villain that always escaped from Spidey. Vulture, Chameleon, Electro, Ock, etc were all defeated by Spider-Man in the issue that they first appeared. He was a source of mystery and frustration for Peter. That seemed more realistic to me than this kid beating super powered adult killers the first time they met.

 

[stillanerd]

Actually GG's first appearance is in a behind the scenes aspect. Luring him out to New Mexico to be in a movie, then hiring the Enforcers to take him out.

That's certainly true, and props to you for pointing that out. However, the Goblin still made his precense known to Spider-Man from the outset and didn't make the Enforcers do all the work, especially when he saw that they couldn't beat Spidey. After that point, however, the Goblin adopted the old adage "If you want something done, you've got to do it yourself." After his first appearance, the Goblin choose to battle Spider-Man directly--a clear sign that he was becoming obessed with him and decending further into madness, which reached the point of no return during "The Night Gwen Stacy Died." It's only after the clone saga do we see Norman Osborn act in a more behind the scenes manner and go back to using others to commit his dirty work, like Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12 for example.

 

[Themanofbat]

That is true, though I always regarded the specialized magazines as sort of outside the canon even though they were part of continuity as they were one offs whose events weren't referred to in the comics. Silly, yes, but that's me.

Actually, Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine was in continuity and is regarded as canon.

Stan wrote the stories, and incorporated sub-plots regarding Norman returning to his goblin persona in Amazing Spider-Man which resulted in the story we read in Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Yeah, they were a bit. That plot with the movie in his first appearance, and then crashing Flash Thompson's Spider-Man fan club, that was a bit lame.

But as you said, they picked up. Especially with the Crime Master story.

But I love that, even know I doubt he intended it, having the GG having a few **** plans at first shows just how much Spidey bothered him, tutning him into the eveil **** he is now

 

[pussywillow1972]

Actually, Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine was in continuity and is regarded as canon.

Stan wrote the stories, and incorporated sub-plots regarding Norman returning to his goblin persona in Amazing Spider-Man which resulted in the story we read in Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2.

I know it was part of continuity, etc. but since most people don't even know the magazine exists, that the events ever occured, and that the events were never referred to in the actual comic, I've always thought of the story as more of an "Untold Tales" type of thing. Not disagreeing with you that it's in continuity and part of the canon, just that it's so obscure to almost every casual reader as to be virtually unknown. Someone couldn't buy every issue from ASM #1 to current and ever know that those events occured. Doesn't make them outside of continuity, only outside of the mainstream knowledge of spider-man's adventures.

On another note, if I had to choose between Norman's Goblin and Ned Leed's Hobgoblin, (forgetting that obscene attempt to make a 98 pound Roderick Kingsley into a 240 pound Hobgoblin,) I'd take Hobby anytime. Then again I do have a big soft spot for those early-mid 80's spidey stories. Those were among the best written. I've been buying spidey comics since 1978 and have almost every issue of ASM from beginning to end and those issues from around 230 through 300 always make me smile. Same goes for PPTSSM and Web.

 

[Silver Sable]

Even if he didn't kill Gwen, he still would have remained popular b/c he's total badass

 

[The Joker]

But I love that

Good for you.

But I prefer a villain not to have lame stories though

even know I doubt he intended it, having the GG having a few **** plans at first shows just how much Spidey bothered him

Huh??

Having a crappy plan shows how much Spidey bothered him?? Why the likes of Big Wheel, the Walrus, the Spot and White Rabbit must hate Spidey with a passion then

tutning him into the eveil **** he is now

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

But the Goblin got serious when the Crime Master story kicked in. And that's when he tried to get his foot in the door of the underworld.

Didn't really have anything to do with Spidey.

 

[CrimeMaster!]

I heard Ditko also originally wanted the Goblin to be an actual Goblin. As in a monster. Similar to Ultimate Green Goblin.

But Stan refused, and thought it would be better if he was a villain with a hidden identity. It kept fans guessing for ages as to who he was, even though it was quite a while before we ever saw Norman Osborn hit the pages of ASM.

Actually in one of Steve Ditko's rare interview he claims that Stan's original idea for the Goblin had him being a gargoyle statue that comes to life on a movie set before Ditko himself retooled the Goblin to be in line with the rest of Spidey's rogue gallery.

I think Madgoblin has this interview quote in one of his goblin articles.

 

[CrimeMaster!]

I think the Goblin would have been still a very popular villain had he not killed Gwen.There was always a great amount of dramatic tension around the Goblin/Norman appearences that I loved.The villain being the father of my best friend was a great plot element,where I can see why he was very popular to use.

Though most older fans I talk to who read at that time say that Doc Ock was looked upon as Spider-Man's number one villain.

 

[Themanofbat]

I know it was part of continuity, etc. but since most people don't even know the magazine exists, that the events ever occured, and that the events were never referred to in the actual comic, I've always thought of the story as more of an "Untold Tales" type of thing. Not disagreeing with you that it's in continuity and part of the canon, just that it's so obscure to almost every casual reader as to be virtually unknown. Someone couldn't buy every issue from ASM #1 to current and ever know that those events occured. Doesn't make them outside of continuity, only outside of the mainstream knowledge of spider-man's adventures.

Hmmmmm.... I'd have to check out my Essentials, but it seems to me that Norman was starting to act "funny" around the Brainwasher story (circa late 50's/early 60's) and I might even recall Peter having concerns that he might be falling back to his goblin persona... which of course was the case in Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2.

I seem to think the story played itself out in ASM for a bit... and let's not forget that SSMM #2 was eventually reprinted in ASM Annual #9, so it's not like it's completely unknown to old school fans and readers.