Comics Would writing MJ out of ASM.....

[Gregatron]

Nobody said it was essential to who Peter is! But it doesn't go against his character either.

But, gee, everyone's been saying that the marriage is essential to who and what Peter and the books are, and that they'll quit if it ends.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Funny, I been hearin' that they're sick of Joe Q's fanboy indulgance and pointless changes. Guess I was readin' th' wrong thread.

 

[Dyeathrose]

Since I'm not buying any of the recent on-goings, can't say MJ being written out would bother me much. I don't mind seeing her every now and then, but she's not the one I'm actually wanting to read about. I do love her and Peter together, but also love Gwen and Peter together, so bit of biased there.

However, the way things are going now, I can't picture anyway Marvel is going to write out MJ in a good way; a bit pessimistic of me, but I'd see it as another of those earth-shattering, core-shaking flops.

 

[Happenstance]

I think most of us could deal with the marriage being ended if it was a natural progression of what was going on. But we know that isnt the case, Joe Q thinks the marriage is the cause of problems when it isnt. Its him and JMS.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I grew up with the 90's SM so I'm a bit biased towards MJ, so yes it would definatley affect me if she left. But like I said, I didn't get to grow up to witness how her marraige hurt SM comics, I didn't grow up with Gwen stacy or any of that. (But I did pick up essential SM #6 at the library and read the Death of Gwen stacy in it, that was a good read)

 

[Captivated]

If the marriage stays, people will whine and complain. If the marriage goes, people will whine and complain.

Yeah... because the marriage is NOT the "problem."

If the marriage hadn't happened, we might not be in this mess. Consider that.

What mess are YOU talking about?

The mess I'm looking at...

• the death of his supporting cast
• stupid revisions of history
• writing characters out of character
• poor attention to detail
• Spidey with stingers
• changing his origin (a preordained "accident"... yeah, figure that one out)
• mystical influences (astral plane visits and spider-gods)
• STUPID attempts to make him seem "young" by down playing his intelligence and maturity, while changing his quips from clever/cheesy to lame/whiney (while the artists drawn him less manly and overly scrawny)
• convoluted and exaggerated attempts to really TORTURE the character (almost like he must be punished for being married to a pretty woman)
• over use of the same ole villains
• under developed, flash-in-the-pan new ones

Geeze... I could go on and on...

The main problem with the marriage exists in the MIND of JQ, and writers who whine about fans, instead of developing the potential there.

 

[Effect]

Honestly it wouldn't stop me from reading since I'm not crazy about the entire marriage or 616 MJ anyway. Prefer the cartoon and Ultimate versions over the 616 and movie versions anyday of the week.

 

[Captivated]

I had a discussion about this with a guy in my comic shop and we came to the same conclusion. If Peter's marriage ends solely because the powers that be don't want him married, it'll be hard to have any serious interest in a future girlfriend because we already know how the story end......they break up.

The only reason the marriage would end is if the writers want it to... and if they ever did undo it, would they go there again?

Do I want to read about a Peter who suffers LOSS after LOSS... who eventually can't form attachments because he's been so mentally and emotionally SCARRED he can never get close to anyone... OR on the other hand, some out of character representation, whose motto is responsibility, but who just wants to shack up with no committment? No and no.

But, even though JQ is large and in charge, and he said marriage for Spidey is all wrong (his lack of discernment is amazing), I think he knows the options are worse, and most fans like the marriage.

 

[stillanerd]

Something to consider with regards to this topic: What were the Spider-Man comics like when Mary Jane was written out of the titles? Remember, this has actually happened at least FOUR times that I can recall.

1. During the late 70s/early 80s when MJ rejected Peter's first marriage proposal in ASM #182, made sporatic appearances after that (I believe this period showed the first hints we see that MJ was initially afriad of marriage because of the divorce of her parents) and after ASM #193, wasn't seen again until ASM #238. While it probably was wise that Peter and MJ broke-up since their relationship was growing stale and repetitive under Len Wein, her absence forced writers to find replacement girlfriends, including having Peter once again get involved with Betty Brant (who, while seperated, was still a married woman, and although Peter did initially try to resist, he still succumbed, so yes, folks, it's still adultery). This practically turned Peter into a quasi-swinger, and none of those relationships--with the Black Cat being a possible exception (and that was more like something from Batman in more ways that one)--were not all that memorable.

2. During the Clone Saga, when Peter (who was then thought to be a clone) and MJ (who was then pregnant) moved to Portland allowing Ben Reilly to become Spider-Man. The idea behind this was to make Spidey young and single again without the stigma of divorce or killing off MJ and so Marvel figured replacement was a good idea. Of course, most know this was the very reason why the Clone Saga was not well recieved, to put it mildly.

3. ASM #13 (Vol. 2) where MJ was "killed" in a plane explosion, which not only made Peter single, but also a widower. If the idea was to try and make Peter get back on the dating scene (or hook up with Jill Stacy) this move failed completely because it not only made seem older, but also brought a real depressive mood to the series overall.

4. When they separated after the Amazing Spider-Man Annual from 2000, which of course freed Peter, but again, her absence made the comic seem as though it were lacking something. Of course, since the movie was coming up which would feature Mary Jane as a major character, in was only a matter of time before she would be brought back as a recurring character in the comics.

An absense of MJ from the comics for a FIFTH time will only confirm what history already proved--that the comics, with her gone, suffer because it leaves a hole that needs to be filled.

 

[Dragon]

Something to consider with regards to this topic: What were the Spider-Man comics like when Mary Jane was written out of the titles? Remember, this has actually happened at least FOUR times that I can recall.

1. During the late 70s/early 80s when MJ rejected Peter's first marriage proposal in ASM #182, made sporatic appearances after that (I believe this period showed the first hints we see that MJ was initially afriad of marriage because of the divorce of her parents) and after ASM #193, wasn't seen again until ASM #238. While it probably was wise that Peter and MJ broke-up since their relationship was growing stale and repetitive under Len Wein, her absence forced writers to find replacement girlfriends, including having Peter once again get involved with Betty Brant (who, while seperated, was still a married woman, and although Peter did initially try to resist, he still succumbed, so yes, folks, it's still adultery). This practically turned Peter into a quasi-swinger, and none of those relationships--with the Black Cat being a possible exception (and that was more like something from Batman in more ways that one)--were not all that memorable.

2. During the Clone Saga, when Peter (who was then thought to be a clone) and MJ (who was then pregnant) moved to Portland allowing Ben Reilly to become Spider-Man. The idea behind this was to make Spidey young and single again without the stigma of divorce or killing off MJ and so Marvel figured replacement was a good idea. Of course, most know this was the very reason why the Clone Saga was not well recieved, to put it mildly.

3. ASM #13 (Vol. 2) where MJ was "killed" in a plane explosion, which not only made Peter single, but also a widower. If the idea was to try and make Peter get back on the dating scene (or hook up with Jill Stacy) this move failed completely because it not only made seem older, but also brought a real depressive mood to the series overall.

4. When they separated after the Amazing Spider-Man Annual from 2000, which of course freed Peter, but again, her absence made the comic seem as though it were lacking something. Of course, since the movie was coming up which would feature Mary Jane as a major character, in was only a matter of time before she would be brought back as a recurring character in the comics.

An absense of MJ from the comics for a FIFTH time will only confirm what history already proved--that the comics, with her gone, suffer because it leaves a hole that needs to be filled.

Yeah, but those periods were also marred by very uninspired writing in the overall. The female characters were dead wood, and the writers never did anything daring. The only exception was Black Cat, and we know how wrong that was.

And we really can't count MJ's absence during the Clone saga, since Peter was gone as well. Same with the period that MJ was "dead". Nothing was done with Peter and his personal life as he was mourning MJ and believed she was still alive. The period when she left last was just a bridge-point because it was clear she was going to return.

But let's remember that there was a reason they continually wrote MJ out of the comics. Because nothing interesting was happening with her there.

It's sad, but with the slim exception of BC (And she gets and asterisk just because she's a super type with sexual overdrive. Very easy to make interesting), there hasn't been a memorable female character created in the Spidey comics since Stan Lee left.

 

[stillanerd]

Yeah, but those periods were also marred by very uninspired writing in the overall. The female characters were dead wood, and the writers never did anything daring. The only exception was Black Cat, and we know how wrong that was.

And we really can't count MJ's absence during the Clone saga, since Peter was gone as well. Same with the period that MJ was "dead". Nothing was done with Peter and his personal life as he was mourning MJ and believed she was still alive. The period when she left last was just a bridge-point because it was clear she was going to return.

But let's remember that there was a reason they continually wrote MJ out of the comics. Because nothing interesting was happening with her there.

It's sad, but with the slim exception of BC (And she gets and asterisk just because she's a super type with sexual overdrive. Very easy to make interesting), there hasn't been a memorable female character created in the Spidey comics since Stan Lee left.

And I agree that the periods cited were pretty medicore ( and sorry folks, but with the exception of the "Spidey and Jonah handcuffed to a bomb by a dying Spencer Smythe" and "The return of the original Mysterio and the Burglar" Marv Wolfman's run on Amazing Spider-Man is overrated), but what I'm saying is that Mary Jane being written out of the titles was a sign that the writers were in a creative slump. Sure he had to be "excised" to try and shake things up, but that of course meant the writers had to fill-in the "superhero's love interest" slot, or at least try and tell stories without her until her eventual return. And you're right about the lack of memorable female character's after Stan Lee (heck, most of the original characters Stan Lee created during his run on Spider-Man are more memorable than 90% of the more recent comic book characters) which makes it all the more reason for a character like MJ to stick around. When Gwen was killed off, at least MJ could fill the role but when she goes that's when the writers start getting desperate. I suppose you could have Betty be the love interest, or Liz, but wouldn't that make Peter even older since he's dating a widow or a widowed single mother respectively? And don't get be started on the Black Cat. As you hinted, she's nothing more a T&A pinup--and Catwoman wannbe besides--that serves only to prove why Spidey should never take on a crimefighting partner, especially one who happens to be his lover.

 

[Effect]

Perhaps a non-Spidey writer should come up a romantic interest for Peter/Spidey that isn't MJ. For example take Ultimate Peter. He's currently paired with Kitty Pryde and part of the reason why I think it works is that she isn't a Spidey character but an X-men character and always have been. As such he pressence in USM is a breath of fresh air since there isn't any pervious Spidey background for her or interaction with Peter.

Perhaps something like that has to happen. Taking an already established character or recently created one, done by a different series creator (without any future planning to hook the two up) and after a while work her into Spidey's life. Having her or him showing up in the different titles. Build up the relationship both professionally and personally.

That hasn't been tried yet I think for Peter. This way it wouldn't seem like he's just going through the motions. Make her drasticly different from Black Cat as well. For one she shouldn't be an overally T&A character. She shouldn't be about eye candy. To many writers in general I think that just because a female character looks great, has a big pair of breast that not much thought has to go into the character and that readers are shallow enough to like her based on that alone. No, put work into the wit, smarts, etc.

There is one thing I noticed about Gwen and MJ and Black Cat looking back over the years as I looked around. This mainly could be due to the difference in artist and the times. Has anyoen noticed how the relationships were writen when compared to the three characters when one puts a focus on how each one dressed and were presented?

Gwen seemed more conserative from the images I've seen of her, more of the girl next door.

MJ seemed like the party girl and was made a model and actress and they don't seem to ever pass up the chance to show her T&A. (as if they can't do much else with her unless she's half naked?)

BC I would take it screams T&A whenever you see her. Check out the Feral arc in SSM. It was like that in the cartoon.

Do you think Stan Lee had Gwen be that way (or at least partly) so that he'd have to work on her personality and that he body wouldn't distract from that? Or maybe that migth not have been an issue?

Do you think if so much time wasn't spent on teh T&A aspect of the female character for Peter that writers would be forced to put a lot more work into the female character?

 

[Galactus]

I don't think it would affect me much. The title is after all "Spider-Man", not "Peter Parker and Mary Jane". If it's "married couple drama" you want you should read something else than superhero comics. Besides, the way Marvel have handled the marriage has almost sucked from the beginning

 

[SpideyInATree]

I don't think it would affect me much. The title is after all "Spider-Man", not "Peter Parker and Mary Jane". If it's "married couple drama" you want you should read something else than superhero comics. Besides, the way Marvel have handled the marriage has almost sucked from the beginning

Agreed. It really wouldn't affect me too much either except it'd just please me to no end. It's something that has needed to be done for a long time and the longer you keep her around the harder it's going to be to get rid of her, in my opinion.