X-Men - Part 7

[Mad Ones]

I've hated Emma since Morrison started writing her and have grown to hate her more as time passed. She's never felt like a genuine X-Man to me, and due to that I'm loving this heal turn and hope it just keeps on escalating. I want Scott and Jean to both return and kick the crap out of her

Sorry for the negativity, but I sorta link Emma with the downfall of the X-Men as a franchise as a whole starting from Morrison's run. It's only STARTING to feel like the X-Men to me again because she ISN'T present.

New X-men and Astonishing are the best modern X-men stories (and best acclaimed), and the voice Morrison and Whedon gave Emma played a big part of that. She's a complicated and multi-dimensional character. Even if you don't like her, you can't discount the years of service she gave to the X-men during their most desperate time.

What happened to Emma was no better than what Bendis did with the Scarlet Witch. The X-men books were in a much better place when she was in charge than they are now. Emma was MIA during the Limbo-Mansion era, and that was a low point in X-men creativity.

I like Ressurexion a lot, but I think Emma needs a team book.

 

[JewishHobbit]

New X-men and Astonishing are the best modern X-men stories (and best acclaimed), and the voice Morrison and Whedon gave Emma played a big part of that. She's a complicated and multi-dimensional character. Even if you don't like her, you can't discount the years of service she gave to the X-men during their most desperate time.

What happened to Emma was no better than what Bendis did with the Scarlet Witch. The X-men books were in a much better place when she was in charge than they are now. Emma was MIA during the Limbo-Mansion era, and that was a low point in X-men creativity.

I like Ressurexion a lot, but I think Emma needs a team book.

[/quote]

It's all a matter of opinion really. New X-Men was fantastic EXCEPT for Emma's portion of the story. She wasn't likable and it wasn't even remotely believable that Scott would be drawn to her let alone her over Jean. She was disgusting. That continued beyond New X-Men to Astonishing and every other book she was in for years where she would regularly mock Scott's dead wife and daughter right to his face and he'd do nothing about it. She was without question a villain masquerading as a hero from the get go. Her betrayal fit her character perfectly and was a LONG time coming.

And yes, while the Limbo era was bad, that had nothing to do with Emma not being there. I'd argue it would have been worse if she had been.

 

[Havok83]

It's all a matter of opinion really. New X-Men was fantastic EXCEPT for Emma's portion of the story. She wasn't likable and it wasn't even remotely believable that Scott would be drawn to her let alone her over Jean. She was disgusting. That continued beyond New X-Men to Astonishing and every other book she was in for years where she would regularly mock Scott's dead wife and daughter right to his face and he'd do nothing about it. She was without question a villain masquerading as a hero from the get go. Her betrayal fit her character perfectly and was a LONG time coming.

And yes, while the Limbo era was bad, that had nothing to do with Emma not being there. I'd argue it would have been worse if she had been.

She didnt really betray the team though. Her gripe was with the Inhumans, not the X-men, whom she remained loyal to. She went about things awfully, but she saved mutantkind. It was her actions that destroyed the first T-cloud, slowing down/reducing the death rate. She also forced action which destroyed the other cloud as no one else was actively doing anything to stop it until Emma came up with a plan to end the epidemic. Did she lie and decieve? Yes, but so has Xavier, Cyclops Wolverine and many other of the "heroic" X-men before her. The fact is thousands more would be dead without her deception. IMO, her actions in IvX were not villiany unless you come at it strictly from the side of the Inhumans. At worse, she was an anti-hero X-man that fought to save her people.

I think one way IvX failed was not giving her any perspective. It wasnt told from her POV so I can easily see how it can be taken as one dimensional even though she had good motives which were unfortunately tainted with vengeance. It could and should have been written as more complex than what we actually got

 

[JewishHobbit]

She didnt really betray the team though. Her gripe was with the Inhumans, not the X-men, whom she remained loyal to. She went about things awfully, but she saved mutantkind. It was her actions that destroyed the first T-cloud, slowing down/reducing the death rate. She also forced action which destroyed the other cloud as no one else was actively doing anything to stop it until Emma came up with a plan to end the epidemic. Did she lie and decieve? Yes, but so has Xavier, Cyclops Wolverine and many other of the "heroic" X-men before her. The fact is thousands more would be dead without her deception. IMO, her actions in IvX were not villiany unless you come at it strictly from the side of the Inhumans. At worse, she was an anti-hero X-man that fought to save her people.

I think one way IvX failed was not giving her any perspective. It wasnt told from her POV so I can easily see how it can be taken as one dimensional even though she had good motives which were unfortunately tainted with vengeance. It could and should have been written as more complex than what we actually got

Yeah, I probably could have worded that better. She betrayed their trust by lying to them about Cyclops is what I meant. But I still stand by the notion that she's a villain and always has been. She's no different really than how Magneto had been in the past.

 

[Sithborg]

From what I remember of Generation X, Emma's characterization was good. I do feel that the role as a teacher was a good evolution of Emma's character. And the constant loss of those students is a good drama for her to deal with. I am completely fine with her slide back to villainy, especially after the loss of her "love". Let's face it, Cyke was straddling that Magneto line extremely closely the past few years. And she was always on board.

I guess, my views on Emma wasn't really different than Kitty's. Never forget the White Queen.

 

[Havok83]

Emma gets way more credit than she deserves as a villian. Prior to her reformation in the 90s, she only had 3 storylines in the X-men. There was her initial appearance when she tried to control the Phoenix, then swapped bodies with Storm and finally when the sentinels killed her students. Those first 2 appearances pale in comparison to the big bads like Magneto, Cassandra Nova, Sinister, Apocalypse, etc... Her main characterization was seen in the pages of NM, where she wasnt a villian. She actually helped the NM when they were traumatized by the Beyonder and allied with Storm and Magneto (along wit the rest of the Inner Circle) to protect their mutant factions. The worst thing she did during this time was kill a horse in order to try and manipulate Firestar to take out Selene for her. For the most part Emma stayed in her lane and wasnt making grand moves of villiany. She's always been more talk and more of a biyatch than anything

 

[Mad Ones]

Being a good teacher and caring for students comes before being a hero or villain. Cyclops and Emma stepped to the plate after M-Day and took proactive steps to ensure mutant survival. If you hate this period for its shades of grey, you should hate Cyclops as much as Emma (I know some people do, I couldn't disagree more). Without Cyclops and Emma, the school was forced to relocate to hell because no one could deal with the Inhumans.

The first issue of IvX was great, because Emma was back to making proactive plans to deal with a threat like she used to do with Cyclops. Unfortunately that went downhill when Emma let Sentinels loose on the Inhumans. Emma survived her students' deaths and the genocide on Genosha, but Cyclops' death drove her crazy? That's a disservice to the character, and insulting to people with mental health problems. Now she's in X-men Blue confusing teen Scott with the adult one. She deserves to be treated better as a character, and I hope she does eventually.

Emma brings in a great dynamic, whether you love her or hate her - that's part of the fun. And she has witty-one liners for days.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Emma gets way more credit than she deserves as a villian. Prior to her reformation in the 90s, she only had 3 storylines in the X-men. There was her initial appearance when she tried to control the Phoenix, then swapped bodies with Storm and finally when the sentinels killed her students. Those first 2 appearances pale in comparison to the big bads like Magneto, Cassandra Nova, Sinister, Apocalypse, etc... Her main characterization was seen in the pages of NM, where she wasnt a villian. She actually helped the NM when they were traumatized by the Beyonder and allied with Storm and Magneto (along wit the rest of the Inner Circle) to protect their mutant factions. The worst thing she did during this time was kill a horse in order to try and manipulate Firestar to take out Selene for her. For the most part Emma stayed in her lane and wasnt making grand moves of villiany. She's always been more talk and more of a biyatch than anything

I'm not sure I agree with her not being a villain in New Mutants, although she was a nuanced villain who could occasionally do good. I remember some creepy stuff with Kitty Pryde being kidnapped, for example.

 

[Havok83]

I'm not sure I agree with her not being a villain in New Mutants, although she was a nuanced villain who could occasionally do good. I remember some creepy stuff with Kitty Pryde being kidnapped, for example.

Ill give you that but too be fair, Doug enrolled into the Massachusetts Academy by his parents of their own free will. Kitty infiltrated it and got caught by Emma. She did hold her against her will and took pleasure out of taunting her but there was no big nefarious endgame. I dont know, I just didnt see stuff like that making her this big evil villian. Claremont was writing her (and the Hellions) as the counterpart to Xavier (and the NM) at the time, much like Magneto in the 60s/70s, but without the grandeur acts of evil. She was very grounded and lowkey. I'd describe her more as an antagonist in that book than flatout villian

 

[Weather Witch]

Finally catched up today. I think Blue #8 was alright, but can't say anything in it really stood out or felt special. I think that's the case for most of the stuff in Blue and Gold tbh. I absolutely loved what they did with Bobby in Iceman #3 though. That was really awesome. As for Astonishing... absolutely loved it. It felt a lot more fresh and interesting, plus the characters and dynamics worked very well. Curious to see what they'll do with it.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I enjoyed Emma as a teacher throughout Generation X (and prior). I didn't even mind her in the earliest issues of Morrison's run. It's when she came between Scott and Jean and all that's happened since that made me hate her. And yes, I know she's not exactly been the height of villainy in her past, but she still murdered, kidnapped, etc. She did not deserve to be an X-Man. She drug Cyclops down to her level, which I hated, and helped break the team apart in ways (Beast, Kitty, Rachel).

 

[Havok83]

I enjoyed Emma as a teacher throughout Generation X (and prior). I didn't even mind her in the earliest issues of Morrison's run. It's when she came between Scott and Jean and all that's happened since that made me hate her. And yes, I know she's not exactly been the height of villainy in her past, but she still murdered, kidnapped, etc. She did not deserve to be an X-Man. She drug Cyclops down to her level, which I hated, and helped break the team apart in ways (Beast, Kitty, Rachel).

but arent people allowed to change? Arent they allowed to seek redemption and try to be better. Thats something the X-men have always stood for. Many of them have murdered and kidnapped and they have a history of accepting those that opposed them among their ranks. Its not like she was accepted overnight as she spent years proving herself and her reformation as headmistress to the school over in Gen X

And how did she break the team apart? None of those characters you listed left the team bc of Emma and there was no split created by her inclusion

 

[JewishHobbit]

but arent people allowed to change? Arent they allowed to seek redemption and try to be better. Thats something the X-men have always stood for. Many of them have murdered and kidnapped and they have a history of accepting those that opposed them among their ranks. Its not like she was accepted overnight as she spent years proving herself and her reformation as headmistress to the school over in Gen X.

And how did she break the team apart? None of those characters you listed left the team bc of Emma and there was no split created by her inclusion

Her joining broke the family. Beast's relationship with Scott deteriorated immediately following Morrison's run (starting with the 2-part story that followed it when he confessed to no longer liking Cyclops due to his and Emma's relationship) and never recovered. Wolverine's relationship with Cyclops deteriorated after Emma influenced him negatively and never recovered. She mocked Rachel right after her mother died, and if memory serves, Rachel DID leave as a result.

More than anything the whole feel of the X-Men shifted from what it had been for decades after Emma joined and she always seemed to be in the middle of it thematically. It became more negative, less of a family, to the point where Cyclops just felt like her puppet the entirety of their relationship. It was never even remotely believable. But Cyclops became more of a villain alongside her and literally tore the team apart (Schism). There's no love in the book. No innocence. Nothing even remotely resembling the days when the X-Men loved one another, protected one another, played football with one another, and were just all around heroes.

 

[Havok83]

Her joining broke the family. Beast's relationship with Scott deteriorated immediately following Morrison's run (starting with the 2-part story that followed it when he confessed to no longer liking Cyclops due to his and Emma's relationship) and never recovered. Wolverine's relationship with Cyclops deteriorated after Emma influenced him negatively and never recovered. She mocked Rachel right after her mother died, and if memory serves, Rachel DID leave as a result.

More than anything the whole feel of the X-Men shifted from what it had been for decades after Emma joined and she always seemed to be in the middle of it thematically. It became more negative, less of a family, to the point where Cyclops just felt like her puppet the entirety of their relationship. It was never even remotely believable. But Cyclops became more of a villain alongside her and literally tore the team apart (Schism). There's no love in the book. No innocence. Nothing even remotely resembling the days when the X-Men loved one another, protected one another, played football with one another, and were just all around heroes.

Rachel didnt. Rachel joined the X-men after Jean had died and Scott was already with Emma. She stayed with the X-men in spite of this. She never left the team but was rather stranded in space years later she linked up with the Starjammers. That had nothing to do with Emma. Schism was not Emma's fault either

Oh IDA that Cyclops was a villian. Thats a narrative that I will never buy

 

[Mad Ones]

There's no love in the book. No innocence. Nothing even remotely resembling the days when the X-Men loved one another, protected one another, played football with one another, and were just all around heroes.

You didn't see that stuff because it was the direction the books wanted to take. If you want to blame and hate a character instead of the writers responsible, blame Wanda. Decimation made the books bleak, not Emma.

Oh IDA that Cyclops was a villian. Thats a narrative that I will never buy

People who make this claim can never prove it.

After the Morlock Massacre, Storm told Wolverine to bring her one Marauder and kill the rest.

 

[Sithborg]

I'm looking forward to Omega Red's return in the next issue of Gold. Though, I do enjoy the Omega Clan, so I hope they can team up sometime.

I am getting tired of the shipping of Kitty and Piotr. Just move on.

 

[Mad Ones]

I'm almost going to drop Gold because Kitty is one of my favourite characters and I dont want to hate her.

 

[Sithborg]

Generations: Phoenix was pretty good. Good art, and I enjoyed the story. Plus, you can never go wrong with Jean punching Galactus in the face.

 

[Havok83]

Generations: Phoenix was pretty good. Good art, and I enjoyed the story. Plus, you can never go wrong with Jean punching Galactus in the face.

She truly was. I miss her but it was good to have her back if even for a moment

 

[Mad Ones]

Bunn really got the original Jean and everything I like about the Phoenix spot on. I miss the original Jean, but I'm glad that we got this contemplation on the weight of her legacy.

Generations: Phoenix was pretty good. Good art, and I enjoyed the story. Plus, you can never go wrong with Jean punching Galactus in the face.

And that was teen Jean! Quite a feat haha. I do think this teen version adds more layers to Jean as a whole. Her solo series is a really slow burn. If the encounter with the phoenix that they're teasing is a letdown, her whole series might be dragged down.

 

[zenith16]

Her joining broke the family. Beast's relationship with Scott deteriorated immediately following Morrison's run (starting with the 2-part story that followed it when he confessed to no longer liking Cyclops due to his and Emma's relationship) and never recovered. Wolverine's relationship with Cyclops deteriorated after Emma influenced him negatively and never recovered. She mocked Rachel right after her mother died, and if memory serves, Rachel DID leave as a result.

More than anything the whole feel of the X-Men shifted from what it had been for decades after Emma joined and she always seemed to be in the middle of it thematically. It became more negative, less of a family, to the point where Cyclops just felt like her puppet the entirety of their relationship. It was never even remotely believable. But Cyclops became more of a villain alongside her and literally tore the team apart (Schism). There's no love in the book. No innocence. Nothing even remotely resembling the days when the X-Men loved one another, protected one another, played football with one another, and were just all around heroes.

when I spoke to both Mr. Claremont and Morrison when I was comics fan @ fan was still around , I was there as poster picking up info for mutadis mutants as reporter. the latter told us there he was told to put Emma between jean and Scott the original story was to have Emma sleep around with all the male though.

but before if you remember road trip rogue had with ice man where Emma was in his head and making sure her face was on every woman he saw like that watress he was into on the road trip in that dinner and that time she dated him in the gen X books

there as a plot where they were gonna have both of them to be December frost from x-men 2099 parents. oh and there was the what if comic of Legion's Quest where magneto was killed and it was the age of Xavier. Ice man and Emma Frost the white Queen were married and she was his trophy wife as Xavier said in that book to Scott and Jean who had Rachel and Nathan as their kids.

Bobby or Robert as Emma called him there too became more of a take charge person/ character there and managed to take over the hell fire club he also became more obsessed with money and Warren followed him to make sure he was safe etc and in that book when she was killed by the externals in it. He went nuts trying to kill them but died twith her.

any way befor that the plan was to have Emma with iceman eventually . but when new x-men came around they wanted her to be sleeping with everyone and mess with beast head a lot too. this also the time when feud was starting between fox and marvel . well the split actually. cause this was also writers were doing weairdly in mutant X prior where they said the jean of that universe slept with freaking every one .

So did that version of havok before the havok we know got put in his place/ body . Apparently, the havok we know found out that mutant X's havok had an affair with sue Richards and a few other women before being with Electra.

don't for getting how they had scarlet sleep around with hawkeye when he was Ronin and they even admitted to them have the plan to sleep with captain America which the admitted to a place like CBR. so it's not like this untrue since they admitted to those comic news outlets.

the writers admitted and this was after that thing joe stated on Newsarama that the new writers didn't like any that was younger than Reed and sue to be married and got rid of most the one's that were in the worst ways possible.


but got some trouble for it. so they put storm with black panter together shut people up and left Luke with Jessica. thank fully

for a while captain Britain and his wife Megan were in limbo .( we got mini series with him having Excalibur the sword or one of the many versions of it )and that weirdness with dazzler happened and she showed back up in London it was like she didn't give damn for finding longshot any more. she doing concerts. of all things. well just be happy they wrapped up her story of her lost kid. but she need's to spend time with him on pages.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Other than Emma and Bobby ending up together, everything else that they apparently planned to do is horrible. How could any of them think those would be good plot points? And what ultimately happened in New X-Men was just as bad if not worse. At least the Emma/Bobby relationship would have been respectable and wouldn't have screwed up the heart of the X-Men. It also would have been more believable than Scott/Emma.

 

[zenith16]

Other than Emma and Bobby ending up together, everything else that they apparently planned to do is horrible. How could any of them think those would be good plot points? And what ultimately happened in New X-Men was just as bad if not worse. At least the Emma/Bobby relationship would have been respectable and wouldn't have screwed up the heart of the X-Men. It also would have been more believable than Scott/Emma.

the thing with Emma and Bobby was pre new X-men though and it was gonna turn out different then the what if legion quest enter the age of Xavier though.
yeah, their kid may have ended up with her last name in 2099. but inthe present thing's might have turned out differently. but new x-men was where thing veered off cause of the fox deal


and the sleeping around thing I can't even speak on it it's just what they wanted to happen. but changed slightly. they justdon'w want married characters and there another cup of joe thing with Newsarama where he said that the writer's wanted to go back to the 80's (you alway have panicked when some is obsessed with that time )and in their mind's thing's was best when the heroes didn't know if they can trust each other or didn't know each other that well cause they just met which led them to fight each the first time around in misunderstanding's . like the first secret war. and you remember wolverine trash every one there. and said he wouldn't fallow captain America. which changed later.

but this is why we had civil war Schim Etc. it was cause they wanted to go back to that and movie stuff just added more crazy to it. a lot of time they say it's not the case . but more truthful writers would come later on the comic news out let's like when mark Millar admitted he didn't give damn about to social commentary about the issue of people right's are being taken.away. he just wanted the heroes to fight which is why Iron man didn't bother to explain him self when peter found out about the negative zone prison holding heroes inthefirst civil war. he just wanted to fight peter. after Exposing to the public with his real identity . and that leads to aunt may death and then peter and MJ want her back sacrificing both their soul's and marriage for to get her back . which was all part of that plan cause the writers could have that around.

oh ho ho and schism that yeah I people will just say wolverine was thinking about the kids. look it though all the place of escape were ruin's the other senor X-men were knocked and he was mad at cyclops cause the kid/students were goona fight regardless of cyclops saying no .


could Wolverine come up with other options/ solution's nope? he had nothing. the place of escape was in ruins but for some reason that Giant robot sentinel was acting like it was in power ranger taking it's sweet time so Wolverine and pull cyclops way to have a fist fight with the mention of jean's name.


don't mind me I giant robot wait for take your time to change to battle costumes .or what ever you do before I'm stopped.

I can't think of any so let fist fight the giant robot will let have the time to do that.


fans ask, Your not gonna turn these heroes into villains again? Marvel: No, we won't, but technically we are. and some of better writer's can't go through it anymore, it's a bit too much.


And most of the heroes in the MU some like dd remain the same but others haven't been acting as bright mentally as they were pre-2013. we get civil 2 and half of them are killing each other almost the same way the ultimate verse did them selves before invading 616 the main universe.

 

[Sithborg]

I liked Schism, and the post Schism status quo. With M-day and then the collective ****ting on Xavier's character, Cyke's progression was logical. As was Wolverine's, with what was going on in his book. Which reminds, I do need to read Aaron's run someday. Didn't exactly like it, but it wasn't exactly the top of the worst things they've done to his character. (Seriously, what happened with Emma is no where near as bad as what they did to him and Maddie)

 

[Mad Ones]

Glad Emma x Bobby never materialized. His string of failed relationships contributes nicely to his new status quo :P I'd love for Emma to make an appearance in Iceman's book (I can't wait for the Daken guest appearance btw).