..Yet another British terrorist attack...

[The Overlord]

The odds are against them?

Well now would win in a war between the West and the Islamic world?

 

[regwec]

There will never be any such war. That's the route of all of the muddled thinking behind the waging of the campaign against Islamic terror. We are under threat from small numbers of fanatical dissidents who want only to anhilate us and who do not fear death. There is no army for us to engage, and there is no state for us to bombard and invade. Our only hope lies in our ability to gather intelligence on these dissidents, at home and abroad, in cooperation with all other nations on earth, no matter how unpalatable we find their regimes. Conversely, our enemies know where we are, and can simply choose their moment.

This is not a conflict of planes and tanks and rifles, this is a conflict of intellect and dilligence and ideology. Therefore, all the superiority of the Western military capability counts for less than nothing. And our enemies have the advantage of utter ruthlesness.

 

[sinewave]

There will never be any such war. That's the route of all of the muddled thinking behind the waging of the campaign against Islamic terror. We are under threat from small numbers of fanatical dissidents who want only to anhilate us and who do not fear death. There is no army for us to engage, and there is no state for us to bombard and invade. Our only hope lies in our ability to gather intelligence on these dissidents, at home and abroad, in cooperation with all other nations on earth, no matter how unpalatable we find their regimes. Conversely, our enemies know where we are, and can simply choose their moment.

This is not a conflict of planes and tanks and rifles, this is a conflict of intellect and dilligence and ideology. Therefore, all the superiority of the Western military capability counts for less than nothing. And our enemies have the advantage of utter ruthlesness.

I agree.

 

[FlameHead]

Folks, if this terrorist plot was real and the plan to use liquid based explosives true, wouldn't this be incredibly dangerous and stupid?

 

[Alonsovich]

Really now your being overdramatic, I doubt Europe is just going to roll over and adopt Islamic theoratic governments, that's just silly. Besides Holland is the most liberal country in Europe and it has adopted the toughest immigration standards in Europe. I mean is that how you define a surrender?

Well... he has a point. Here in Spain we have close to 5 million moroccan inmigrants and close to 6 million muslims, which have much more kids than the average spaniard has. 5 years ago the numbers of muslims and morroccan inmigrants in Spain were half than there are now due to the new inmigration politic of "papers for everyone". The last time we had so many moroccans and muslims in Spain was during the Al-Andalus 800 year long invasion. It's not a problem now... but if our government continues with this inmigration politics it's going to be a problem in 10-15 years.

 

[War Lord]

Well... he has a point. Here in Spain we have close to 5 million moroccan inmigrants and close to 6 million muslims, which have much more kids than the average spaniard has. 5 years ago the numbers of muslims and morroccan inmigrants in Spain were half than there are now due to the new inmigration politic of "papers for everyone". The last time we had so many moroccans and muslims in Spain was during the Al-Andalus 800 year long invasion. It's not a problem now... but if our government continues with this inmigration politics it's going to be a problem in 10-15 years.

If it's a problem 10-15 years from now, it's already a problem.

 

[War Lord]

Really now your being overdramatic, I doubt Europe is just going to roll over and adopt Islamic theoratic governments, that's just silly. Besides Holland is the most liberal country in Europe and it has adopted the toughest immigration standards in Europe. I mean is that how you define a surrender?

The higher birth-rates of the Muslim immigrants and aging Europe pretty much guarentee that there is not going to be a roll-over, but it will be voted in democratically. Some estimates say that within 20 years that it won't be stopped.

Having tougher immigration standards means nothing when you have 10 to 15% of a problematic population in your country right now, of which at least 10% are supportive of the terrorist networks.

 

[The Overlord]

There will never be any such war. That's the route of all of the muddled thinking behind the waging of the campaign against Islamic terror. We are under threat from small numbers of fanatical dissidents who want only to anhilate us and who do not fear death. There is no army for us to engage, and there is no state for us to bombard and invade. Our only hope lies in our ability to gather intelligence on these dissidents, at home and abroad, in cooperation with all other nations on earth, no matter how unpalatable we find their regimes. Conversely, our enemies know where we are, and can simply choose their moment.

This is not a conflict of planes and tanks and rifles, this is a conflict of intellect and dilligence and ideology. Therefore, all the superiority of the Western military capability counts for less than nothing. And our enemies have the advantage of utter ruthlesness.

That's true but the reason why the odds are against the terrorists is because they do not have realstic goals. The terrorists want to start a war between the Islamic world and the West, because they think the Islamic World will win because God is on their side, but God makes for a very poor general. Some of these terrorists want to set up theocracies in Western countries, but that would be impossible, which is why that goal will always fail.

Now if they had a somewhat realstic goal, like driving the West out of the ME, they could suceed. Frankly I'm sick of that whole bloodly region and would be happy isolate it and leave them their own devices, their petty religious and cultural conflicts will no longer be our concern. Its one of the main reasons I would want as develop an alternative to oil, it would allow us to ignore that whole insane region. But if the terrorists think they can get more than that they are playing a fool's game and they may one day push the West too far and then that whole region will suffer for their actions. I would not want to see that happen, but I think its a possibility and just because a potenial outcome is very scarey does not mean it won't come true.

I mean their people in the ME who want to push Israel out of the region despite the danger that Israel may decide to nuke them if it looks like they are about see their state destroyed. These terrorists have no common sense and that is their biggest weakness.

 

[The Overlord]

The higher birth-rates of the Muslim immigrants and aging Europe pretty much guarentee that there is not going to be a roll-over, but it will be voted in democratically. Some estimates say that within 20 years that it won't be stopped.

Having tougher immigration standards means nothing when you have 10 to 15% of a problematic population in your country right now, of which at least 10% are supportive of the terrorist networks.

What's your solution then?

 

[The Overlord]

Folks, if this terrorist plot was real and the plan to use liquid based explosives true, wouldn't this be incredibly dangerous and stupid?

How is it stupid, when you consider the whole fact that terrorists have no regard for their own lives and would do anything to cause mass carnage?

 

[regwec]

That's true but the reason why the odds are against the terrorists is because they do not have realstic goals. The terrorists want to start a war between the Islamic world and the West, because they think the Islamic World will win because God is on their side, but God makes for a very poor general. Some of these terrorists want to set up theocracies in Western countries, but that would be impossible, which is why that goal will always fail.

I'm not sure that instigating global warfare is a goal for all jihadi. Most (including those who adhere to the al' Queda protocol) want to restore the Caliphate- that is a single Shiriah government over all the area held by the Ummayads at the start of the 8th century. This includes Southern Spain, North Africa, the Middle East, Mesopotamia, the Iraninan plateau, and the asian subcontinent up to the Ganges. Almost all of that area is nominally headed by feeble, unpopular autocracies, and almost all of that area is Islamist. The jihadi have only to undermine these governments and their western backers enough to cause popular insurrection, and they have won. In that context, they do not need to destroy the US and Britain. They only need to demoralise the civilian populations of western nations sufficiently for continued "interferance" in the Muslim world to become democratically unsustainable. This has already succeeded in France and Spain.

I would say that global jihad is on the brink of total victory.

 

[War Lord]

What's your solution then?

There might not be a solution, short of a dictatorship, because Europe foolishly thought that human rights were really wanted by everybody and thought that secularism was so appealing that it would naturally be adopted by everybody. Not to mention that when terrorism was merely in a developmental stage during the Munich Olympics and 1980's that was the time to act decisively and give a strong response to terrorist actions. Had they done that, it probably wouldn't be the problem it is today.

Europe is simply reaping what it sowed.

Even now, it's not too late to deal with it, but it requires a united front and a no bs response that basically says that we'll destroy anybody who foments terrorism. Any less response is an encouragement to terrorism.

 

[War Lord]

I'm not sure that instigating global warfare is a goal for all jihadi. Most (including those who adhere to the al' Queda protocol) want to restore the Caliphate- that is a single Shiriah government over all the area held by the Ummayads at the start of the 8th century. This includes Southern Spain, North Africa, the Middle East, Mesopotamia, the Iraninan plateau, and the asian subcontinent up to the Ganges. Almost all of that area is nominally headed by feeble, unpopular autocracies, and almost all of that area is Islamist. The jihadi have only to undermine these governments and their western backers enough to cause popular insurrection, and they have won. In that context, they do not need to destroy the US and Britain. They only need to demoralise the civilian populations of western nations sufficiently for continued "interferance" in the Muslim world to become democratically unsustainable. This has already succeeded in France and Spain.

I would say that global jihad is on the brink of total victory.

It's not quite on the brink of victory, but it's getting close.

 

[The Overlord]

There might not be a solution, short of a dictatorship, because Europe foolishly thought that human rights were really wanted by everybody and thought that secularism was so appealing that it would naturally be adopted by everybody. Not to mention that when terrorism was merely in a developmental stage during the Munich Olympics an d1980's that was the time to act decisively and give a strong response to terrorist actions. Had they done that, it probably wouldn't be the problem it is today.

Europe is simply reaping what it sowed.

Even now, it's not too late to deal with it, but it requires a united front and a no bs response that basically says that we'll destroy anybody who foments terrorism. Any less response is an encouragement to terrorism.

Are so saying the stituation is any different in North America? Besides how can you say that we must oppose all terrorists regimes and still suppport Bush, he is willing to ****e himself to terrorist regimes like the Saudi Monarchy?

 

[The Overlord]

I'm not sure that instigating global warfare is a goal for all jihadi. Most (including those who adhere to the al' Queda protocol) want to restore the Caliphate- that is a single Shiriah government over all the area held by the Ummayads at the start of the 8th century. This includes Southern Spain, North Africa, the Middle East, Mesopotamia, the Iraninan plateau, and the asian subcontinent up to the Ganges. Almost all of that area is nominally headed by feeble, unpopular autocracies, and almost all of that area is Islamist. The jihadi have only to undermine these governments and their western backers enough to cause popular insurrection, and they have won. In that context, they do not need to destroy the US and Britain. They only need to demoralise the civilian populations of western nations sufficiently for continued "interferance" in the Muslim world to become democratically unsustainable. This has already succeeded in France and Spain.

I would say that global jihad is on the brink of total victory.

Bah, who cares? Frankly I am sick of the whole ME, I am sick of their petty religious conflicts and their victimization complex, if they want to screw up their own backyard, let them, let them be damned. With all Western influence gone a bunch of different factions will fight for control. Al-Qaeda may not even be the winner, they have to destroy the Shiites and rival Sunni factions to achieve a true victory, so they even be destroyed before after their goal is achieved. Also if they are foolish enough to try and destroy Israel, the whole region may be nuked and they will be destroyed by their own foolishiness and they are stupid enough to try and take land in our turf, like Spain, I hope they are prepared for a real war, because there is no way Spain, NATO or the EU will allow that happen. Maybe after that region suffers a total disasterous, it will forced toreform, I would hope such thing could be avoided, but somethines history shows us that change can only happen after a long bloody mess has occured first.

 

[regwec]

But you are still thinking in terms of full scale war. It won't happen like that. The spread of militant Islam will be a process of changing demographics, immigration, and the terrorisation of social and political opponents. It will be a conflict within states, rather than against them.

 

[War Lord]

Are so saying the stituation is any different in North America? Besides how can you say that we must oppose all terrorists regimes and still suppport Bush, he is willing to ****e himself to terrorist regimes like the Saudi Monarchy?

Even if Bush wanted to cut America's access to Saudi oil, it isn't really possible and he doesn't have the power to do so anyway.

 

[War Lord]

Folks, if this terrorist plot was real and the plan to use liquid based explosives true, wouldn't this be incredibly dangerous and stupid?

That depends on how they're designed to explode. If exposing them to air or movement would cause them to explode, than yes. However, if it takes some kind of agent then no.

 

[regwec]

I must say that I was shocked and appalled by the timing and the potentially malicious intent of the letter, signed by "prominent" Muslims and published days after the recent arrests, demanding changes to British foreign policy in order to stave of future terrorist attacks.

It is tantamount to saying, "do as we say and we won't kill you".

When was the last time somebody was charged with treason in this country?

 

[War Lord]

I must say that I was shocked and appalled by the timing and the potentially malicious intent of the letter, signed by "prominent" Muslims and published days after the recent arrests, demanding changes to British foreign policy in order to stave of future terrorist attacks.

It is tantamount to saying, "do as we say and we won't kill you".

When was the last time somebody was charged with treason in this country?

There's no such thing as treason anymore, because loyalty is no longer required.

 

[TheSumOfGod]

DON'T BE FOOLED! This is just another FAKE terrorist attack (or, in this case, fake ATTEMPTED terrorist attack), just another way of scaring you into submission, into willingly surrendering your freedom, just another step bringing us closer to a planetary fascist police state.

 

[FlameHead]

That depends on how they're designed to explode. If exposing them to air or movement would cause them to explode, than yes. However, if it takes some kind of agent then no.

Yes, but my point is, they DID NOT KNOW how it was designed and therefor this was stupid.

 

[FlameHead]

Hey Sum, did you see Keith Olbermann's piece on Politics and terror? It was pulled from google and youtube but It's still out there somewhere and Alex of course talks about it.

http://infowars.com/articles/terror/olbermann_exposes_nexus_politics_terror.htm

It's too bad. It's a good piece of mainstream truth for the less acceptable folk.

 

[regwec]

DON'T BE FOOLED! This is just another FAKE terrorist attack (or, in this case, fake ATTEMPTED terrorist attack), just another way of scaring you into submission, into willingly surrendering your freedom, just another step bringing us closer to a planetary fascist police state.

I haven't surrendered any freedom, nor has anyone even asked me for my "submission".

 

[sinewave]

Hey Sum, did you see Keith Olbermann's piece on Politics and terror? It was pulled from google and youtube but It's still out there somewhere and Alex of course talks about it.

http://infowars.com/articles/terror/olbermann_exposes_nexus_politics_terror.htm

It's too bad. It's a good piece of mainstream truth for the less acceptable folk.

here's a link to that clip in WMP and Quicktime format. good stuff.