You call yourself gamers?

I agree. "Batman Begins" blows Burton's films (garbage in comparison) out of the water.

Going back and watching them, Burton's films were really bad. I can't believe they were ever considered good.

Schumacher's films are like eighth grade plays. :(
 
WhatsHisFace said:
I agree. "Batman Begins" blows Burton's films (garbage in comparison) out of the water.

Going back and watching them, Burton's films were really bad. I can't believe they were ever considered good.

Schumacher's films are like eighth grade plays. :(

Burton's films aren't bad if you realize they were based off pre-crisis stuff.
 
Spidey-Bat said:
Burton's films aren't bad if you realize they were based off pre-crisis stuff.
I'm not entirely sure I know what Pre-Crisis is, but I do know that for movies called "Batman", there was sure a very small amount of "Batman" or "Bruce Wayne" in the story. :(

And with all the wierdness of those movies, watching them after "Batman Begins" was like watching the Adam West series. :(
 
WhatsHisFace said:
I'm not entirely sure I know what Pre-Crisis is, but I do know that for movies called "Batman", there was sure a very small amount of "Batman" or "Bruce Wayne" in the story. :(

And with all the wierdness of those movies, watching them after "Batman Begins" was like watching the Adam West series. :(

Pre-Crisis is anything before 1986. It refers to the Crisis on Infinite Earths in which DC got rid of all the ****ty Earth 2, Earth 3, and other crap and combined everything into 1 universe. A lot of origins were redone, characters killed and brought back. Crisis pretty much made Batman who is he today, a vigilante who never kills. Batman started out as being violent and then evolved to a campy idiot in the 50's and 60's. Burton made it more the former.

Batman is on screen when he's not in costume. There was enough screen time for him to be developed, but Burton also developed the Joker (who rightfully deserved it).
 
Oh... well I'm a bit lost because I never really followed the comics. In fact, I didn't know there were multiple earths until now, but anyways, I simply know what I like. And I like when my heroes are played straight, not campy.

So while I like X-men 1 and 2, I don't like 3. I liked Daredevil (enough), but not Elektra...

I guess my point of view is that they shouldn't take the easy way out and make it all a big joke. I like when they put care into it like with Spider-man and Batman Begins.
 
Horrorfan said:
...because they think it's overrated. Whats your confusion about that?

There is no confusion. My point is that such quips of calling just about anything and everything that is remotely good as "overrated" are mere mindless hiccups that are often nothing more than insignificant banter with little to no valid criticism to back them up with.

for the record, BB begins :-

it drags terrifically, and has no sense of fun...its up its own ass. I have no problem with dark movies, but this wasn't dark, it just came off as artificial and emotionless

"Fun" is an extremely subjective term. Some people have "fun" listening to Mozart in their car while others can't stand it. Some like to watch smart movies that are intellectually stimulating to have a good time rather than watch trendy production mired with mass-appeal cliches like glorified sex and action.

As for your argument about the film "dragging terrifically", Batman Begins has one of the most dense plots I've ever seen in a summer blockbuster - so much happens during the course of 2 hours and 20 minutes, yet it moves at a very brisk pace. If anything, the argument of the film moving too fast is infinitely more accurate than the film "dragging", because "dragging" implies the film having a very thin, loose and little plot that is stretched to fit into the running time while BB does the exact opposite - instead of "dragging" and "stretching", the plot in BB is actually "compressed" to fit under the 2.5 hour mark.

As for the film being "artificial and emotionless", I'm sure many will disagree on that. But then again, you had more fun watching dumb-crap like Fantastic Four, so who am I to talk?

the acting ranges from good ( michael caine, Cillian Murphy) to decent (Bale, Oldman etc) to bad (katie homes).

I sort of agree with this statement, only that everyone in the film gave a good performance except Katie Holmes, who was not actually "bad" per se, but rather lackluster when compared to the more seasoned acting veterans around her.

scarecrow is underused

How is that in any way suitable grounds for criticism? I think it was obvious from the start that the film is about Bruce Wayne and his journey to become Batman and the villains having a moot role to play, especially when there are 3 of them. It's incredibly shallow to pan on a film based on what it's not instead of judging it on what it is.

Gotham seemed like a generic industrial town that could have been anywhere

When Nolan was making the film, he said he wanted Gotham to look like "New York on steroids" and that's exactly what it looked like. Of course, sets like the Narrows, Arkham and the wide shots of the city that pan around Wayne Tower, the monorail etc. nevertheless give Gotham it's own identity. The reason for such a direction was to make Batman stand out in his environment so as to differ the approach taken in the Burton films where Batman felt right at home around the seemingly surreal surroundings.

What most people tend to forget that Gotham is not a town riddled with Gothic architecture, but rather an urban hellhole more reminiscent of the cities in films like Se7en or Blade Runner. In fact, the very first Batman comics, the 70's O'Neil run as well as the Frank Miller entries - DKR and Year One also use a similiar art direction as well.

Basically, the whole movie was, for me, well made but dull and reserved, with uninteresting characters, choppy action scenes and very few moments I can remember with clarity (the crux of a good movie, for me, is moments I remeber well because they imprinted themsleves on my mind).

Again that is a very subjective statement, while the merits of any assertion about something being "overrated" lies on the objectivity of said criticism - something I conclude your review is fairly lacking in.

Im not a huge fan of the batman comic books though. IMO the only good movie (rocket penguines aside) in the series was Batman returns.

Batman Returns was a complete parody, a caricature full of self-contradictions. Even though it's arguably my favorite of the Burton movies, I still can't over the fact that the film is basically a mockery of itself by trying to be exceptionally dark, but then injects buckets full of campy humor and senseless wackiness. Still the film has it's fair share of good moments that are deserving of appreciation.
 
I'd have to say Phaser is thoroughly correct on this one, but he should have been a little more bashy when confronting the "underused scarecrow" complaint.
 
How the hell did we go from Disney movies to Batman Begins?
 
WhatsHisFace said:
I'd have to say Phaser is thoroughly correct on this one, but he should have been a little more bashy when confronting the "underused scarecrow" complaint.

What can I say? Some people and their delicate sensitivities...;)

I will say that the Scarecrow, regardless of his screentime, was used quite brilliantly in Batman Begins. The fear gas sequences are one of the best parts of the film and the Scarecrow's final getup (a man in a straightjacket wearing a burlap sack) beats the comics straw suit outfit with a 20-ton sledgehammer.
 
Phaser said:
What can I say? Some people and their delicate sensitivities...;)

I will say that the Scarecrow, regardless of his screentime, was used quite brilliantly in Batman Begins. The fear gas sequences are one of the best parts of the film and the Scarecrow's final getup (a man in a straightjacket wearing a burlap sack) beats the comics straw suit outfit with a 20-ton sledgehammer.
I thought he was used just enough. Any more and he would have been too forced. I didn't think he was too necessary when we last saw him confronting Katie Holmes, only to be electro-shocked in a moment of female-empowerment, and I don't think he was too overused as to where we'd wonder what he was doing in a scene.

That movie was so well made I both fear and eagerly anticipate for the sequel. They may have set an insurmountable bar for themselves with this one, but thankfully the whole team is coming back. :up:
 
I would say if you are a fan of Batman or DC, you are probably far more biased towards me towards the film, since I have no love for either. Batman, to me, has always been the only interesting mainstream character dc has, and I had no reason to slate the film, or to love it. It just seems to me the pro-batman crowd think its a much better movie than it actually is (again, Im coming at it from a fan of films, not as a dc or batman fan whatsoever).

I could give a damn about the comics, btw.
I love Batman returns for many reasons (even though, as you did say, it does have too many campy moments):

Michael Keaton is always excellent. I prefered him to bale, since he always seemed to play it cool and not try too hard (Bale seemed to try WAY too hard, especially with the growly voice which I thought was just silly). Keaton was ice cold, which I liked.

The Catwoman/Batman thing is extremely tragic, and had the heart I like to see in movies...hell, I even felt sorry for penguin seeing as his fate was more or less thrust upon him. Thats one thing this missed for me. characters I actually gave a damn about. scarecrow was cool in a creepy way, and alfred was pretty good, but none got to me to any sort of real emotional level.

Gotham in Burtons movies had personality. Nevermind the comics, I KNEW it was gotham from the architecture, and it was like the whole city was alive. Now its just another generic city in another generic superhero movie.

Fantastic four was simply a more fun movie. BB was just tedious. I don't know about you but when I pay to see a movie, I want to be entertained, not having my ass bored off. and the whole Bale/growly voice thing for batman was lame too.


For me, its entirely justice that X3 made more money than BB at the box office. They say it doesn't equal quality, but for me, sometimes its nice to see the public get it right occassionally :up:
 
Horrorfan said:
I would say if you are a fan of Batman or DC, you are probably far more biased towards me towards the film, since I have no love for either. Batman, to me, has always been the only interesting mainstream character dc has, and I had no reason to slate the film, or to love it. It just seems to me the pro-batman crowd think its a much better movie than it actually is (again, Im coming at it from a fan of films, not as a dc or batman fan whatsoever).

But then again, one is also likely to bring up the question of your own bias against DC properties. So how exactly does that make your opinion an objective. Come to think of it, your review is very much likely to be even more slanted than the ones you're dismissing.

I could give a damn about the comics, btw.
I love Batman returns for many reasons (even though, as you did say, it does have too many campy moments):

Michael Keaton is always excellent. I prefered him to bale, since he always seemed to play it cool and not try too hard (Bale seemed to try WAY too hard, especially with the growly voice which I thought was just silly). Keaton was ice cold, which I liked.

The Catwoman/Batman thing is extremely tragic, and had the heart I like to see in movies...hell, I even felt sorry for penguin seeing as his fate was more or less thrust upon him. Thats one thing this missed for me. characters I actually gave a damn about. scarecrow was cool in a creepy way, and alfred was pretty good, but none got to me to any sort of real emotional level.

Once again, purely subjective statements. Like I said before, if you want anyone to take your assertion of something being "overrated" any seriously or even have a shred of credibility, then you will have to be a lot more impersonal in your criticism.

Gotham in Burtons movies had personality. Nevermind the comics, I KNEW it was gotham from the architecture, and it was like the whole city was alive. Now its just another generic city in another generic superhero movie.

Gotham in Burton's movies was nothing but art deco in the back of a studio lot. And this fact sticks out like sore thumb even moreso in Batman Returns, where the Gotham feels like more a confined, claustrophobic prison than a city. Besides, if you don't give a damn about the comics, what exactly are you basing your perceptions of Gotham on anyway? How did you "knew it was Gotham from the architecture" when you haven't read the comics and don't have a clue about how Gotham is supposed to be?

Fantastic four was simply a more fun movie. BB was just tedious. I don't know about you but when I pay to see a movie, I want to be entertained, not having my ass bored off. and the whole Bale/growly voice thing for batman was lame too.

I can tear apart Fantastic Four piece by piece as being nothing but a proverbial piece of trash, an abomination of cinema in purely factual terms. The bland cinematography, the terrible performances, the mundane plot, the abhorring one-liners, the cheesy action sequences, the dreadul music...sure, some people enjoy watching such "films" munching popcorn and sipping cola with their brain turned off but for me, the very idea of enduring such a travesty that treats it's audience like complete idiots is downright offensive.

People tend to throw around the term "summer blockbuster" as if they aren't supposed to be anything but mindless, effects-driven bonanzas when in fact, the genre has time and again proven itself capable of delivering smart entertainment the likes of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

For me, its entirely justice that X3 made more money than BB at the box office. They say it doesn't equal quality, but for me, sometimes its nice to see the public get it right occassionally :up:

And The Phantom Menace made more than X3. They say it doesn't equal quality, but according to your logic, it's nice to see the public get it right occassionally (especially when TPM earned almost twice as much green at the BO).
 
Phaser said:
But then again, one is also likely to bring up the question of your own bias against DC properties. So how exactly does that make your opinion an objective. Come to think of it, your review is very much likely to be even more slanted than the ones you're dismissing.

Once again, purely subjective statements. Like I said before, if you want anyone to take your assertion of something being "overrated" any seriously or even have a shred of credibility, then you will have to be a lot more impersonal in your criticism.



Gotham in Burton's movies was nothing but art deco in the back of a studio lot. And this fact sticks out like sore thumb even moreso in Batman Returns, where the Gotham feels like more a confined, claustrophobic prison than a city. Besides, if you don't give a damn about the comics, what exactly are you basing your perceptions of Gotham on anyway? How did you "knew it was Gotham from the architecture" when you haven't read the comics and don't have a clue about how Gotham is supposed to be?



I can tear apart Fantastic Four piece by piece as being nothing but a proverbial piece of trash, an abomination of cinema in purely factual terms. The bland cinematography, the terrible performances, the mundane plot, the abhorring one-liners, the cheesy action sequences, the dreadul music...sure, some people enjoy watching such "films" munching popcorn and sipping cola with their brain turned off but for me, the very idea of enduring such a travesty that treats it's audience like complete idiots is downright offensive.

And The Phantom Menace made more than X3. They say it doesn't equal quality, but according to your logic, it's nice to see the public get it right occassionally (especially when TPM earned almost twice as much green at the BO).


LOL I said the public get it right OCCASSIONALLY when it comes to X3. What that means, as you dont seem to get by bringing up TPM, is that SOMETIMES, CERTAIN movies earn as much as they deserve to. To sum up (in caps so you might get it this time): NOT EVERY FILM THAT EARNS MONEY DESERVES IT, JUST OCASSIONALLY. X3 was one of those occasions.

Yeah DC comics suck. But they have had some good movies (if I was totally biased, would I love Batman Returns and Constantine? I don't think so, mate).

I knew Gotham from the movies. If you saw those giant statues, you KNEW it was Burton's gotham. If you see this gotham, in bb begins, it could be any industrial hellhole from any movie ever. The movie had NO personality.

The thing that you dont seem to get is that ALL film is subjective. Theres pretty much no facts when it comes to film quality. So I can say batman begins is overrated as much as I want to. It's overrated. See? I just did it.

If someone takes my opinion seriously or not, who cares? I speak the truth. People can believe it, or not. I do not care who takes it seriously or not. I say what i want to say, not what I think people want to hear unlike some.

Batman Begins was overrated. Vastly overrated. You can't stop me saying it and I bet it tears you up inside.
 
Horrorfan said:
LOL I said the public get it right OCCASSIONALLY when it comes to X3. What that means, as you dont seem to get by bringing up TPM, is that SOMETIMES, CERTAIN movies earn as much as they deserve to. To sum up (in caps so you might get it this time): NOT EVERY FILM THAT EARNS MONEY DESERVES IT, JUST OCASSIONALLY. X3 was one of those occasions.

No, X3 was not one of those occassions. Like The Phantom Menace, it simply earned money based on the name of it's franchise and has absolutely nothing to do with the actual quality of the film. The critical panning it recieved, not to mention it's barely above average user review score (or is it worse?) is proof of that.

Yeah DC comics suck. But they have had some good movies (if I was totally biased, would I love Batman Returns and Constantine? I don't think so, mate).

Still, your self-proclaimed hate for all things DC can easily be attributed to your pathetically weak critique of Batman Begins. One thing I'm greatly amused with is gutless wimps who are blatantly and inherently biased, yet are too damn spineless to admit it.

I knew Gotham from the movies. If you saw those giant statues, you KNEW it was Burton's gotham.

That's EXACTLY what it was Burton's Gotham.

If you see this gotham, in bb begins, it could be any industrial hellhole from any movie ever. The movie had NO personality.

So essentially you're lambasting at the Gotham in Begins for NOT being Burton's Gotham? You do realize that Burton's interpretation of the city is nowhere close to being definitive and that both Burton's and Nolan's films are completely different franchises?

Oh and...how exactly do art decos in the back of a studio lot equal "personality"? That's the kind of things you regularly see in B-movies (only in B89 it was on a slightly larger scale, while in BR, it looked like a B-movie through and through).

The thing that you dont seem to get is that ALL film is subjective. Theres pretty much no facts when it comes to film quality.

Yes there are. The quality of a film can be measured in a number of factual ways - dialogue and screenplay, cinematography, direction, performances, music and so forth.

So I can say batman begins is overrated as much as I want to. It's overrated. See? I just did it.

And the dog can keep barking till the cows come home. Not that his barking has any kind of meaning, so...carry on. :up:

If someone takes my opinion seriously or not, who cares? I speak the truth. People can believe it, or not. I do not care who takes it seriously or not. I say what i want to say, not what I think people want to hear unlike some.

No, my opinion is the truth...

JackNicholson.gif


...and you can't handle the truth!

And we can keep on playing on such childish tangents OR grow up and stop making juvenile claims like "I speak the truth".

Batman Begins was overrated. Vastly overrated. You can't stop me saying it and I bet it tears you up inside.

Dogs and their barking. Horrorfan and his opinions.

Same thing. Different species.
 
Phaser said:
No, X3 was not one of those occassions. Like The Phantom Menace, it simply earned money based on the name of it's franchise and has absolutely nothing to do with the actual quality of the film. The critical panning it recieved, not to mention it's barely above average user review score (or is it worse?) is proof of that.



Still, your self-proclaimed hate for all things DC can easily be attributed to your pathetically weak critique of Batman Begins. One thing I'm greatly amused with is gutless wimps who are blatantly and inherently biased, yet are too damn spineless to admit it.



That's EXACTLY what it was Burton's Gotham.



So essentially you're lambasting at the Gotham in Begins for NOT being Burton's Gotham? You do realize that Burton's interpretation of the city is nowhere close to being definitive and that both Burton's and Nolan's films are completely different franchises?

Oh and...how exactly do art decos in the back of a studio lot equal "personality"? That's the kind of things you regularly see in B-movies (only in B89 it was on a slightly larger scale, while in BR, it looked like a B-movie through and through).



Yes there are. The quality of a film can be measured in a number of factual ways - dialogue and screenplay, cinematography, direction, performances, music and so forth.


.

X3 was one of those occassions. But then the fact that it owned BB and Superbomb at the box office probably has made some DC fans bitter towards it. But hey, it beat Batman Begins which is awesome in my book. I guess its not so awesome for Batman fans :(

(by the way, almost 60% positive critical reviews and 70% user reviews is pretty above average to me, and certainly not too much of a panning in my eyes).

I am biased towards DC COMICS. It's heroes are boring, it's stories are boring and it's fans, for the most part, are boring. But I can admit something good when I see it. Batman Returns was a fantastic movie, and Constantine was one of my favourite movies of the last few years. I am the first to admit that DC comics are **** in most areas. But when it makes a film worth seeing, I will admit it.


Art style and deco- distinction. Burton's movies are ALL distinguished. Its the mark of an auetur who can put his own personal stamp on a movie, and Burton does it in every frame of every film he has ever done (well almost). Whereas the director of BB has NO style or distinction whatsoever. You can't watch his movies and know you are watching a christopher gans movie (and if you say you can, I outright say you are lying).


One man's good dialogue, music and script is another man's nightmare. There are very few instances in film where you can say something is definitly a good or bad movie (except for say Uwe Boll's film, which are undenyably bad).
 
Superbomb? It's rapidly approaching 250 million worldwide and it's only been out a few weeks.
 
Horrorfan said:
X3 was one of those occassions. But then the fact that it owned BB and Superbomb at the box office probably has made some DC fans bitter towards it. But hey, it beat Batman Begins which is awesome in my book. I guess its not so awesome for Batman fans :(

Box-office numbers mean **** to me. Most of the greatest films ever made didn't even cross the 50 million mark in box-office reciepts so your argument is pointless.

(by the way, almost 60% positive critical reviews and 70% user reviews is pretty above average to me, and certainly not too much of a panning in my eyes).

Comparitively it is, especially when Batman Begins gets 83% from critics and a whooping 94% from users. Not to mention it's score of 8.4 leaving it sitting comfortably as 81st best movie ever made in IMDB's Top 250 list. Wow, that is what one would call "Ownage x 3". :D:up:

Of course, you would decry it all as being "overrated" so your meaningless whining is expected.

I am biased towards DC COMICS. It's heroes are boring, it's stories are boring and it's fans, for the most part, are boring. But I can admit something good when I see it. Batman Returns was a fantastic movie, and Constantine was one of my favourite movies of the last few years. I am the first to admit that DC comics are **** in most areas. But when it makes a film worth seeing, I will admit it.

Batman Returns, like I said, was nothing but a parody of itself, contradicting and mocking it's own material by being too dark and too absurd at the same time. Nothing you say is going to change that fact (see, there are factual ways of judging movies)

Art style and deco- distinction. Burton's movies are ALL distinguished. Its the mark of an auetur who can put his own personal stamp on a movie, and Burton does it in every frame of every film he has ever done (well almost).Whereas the director of BB has NO style or distinction whatsoever. You can't watch his movies and know you are watching a christopher gans movie (and if you say you can, I outright say you are lying).

Uhh, so? Steven Spielberg doesn't have a distinct style of his own either, considering he's made so many different types of films. Neither does Ridley Scott. A "distinct style" does not make a great director. A great director is defined by the quality of his films and Christopher Nolan is one of the most talented ones working in Hollywood today. The fact that in just five films now he has worked with Al Pacino, Robin Williams, Liam Neeseon, Christian Bale, David Bowie, Gary Oldman, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, Hugh Jackman, Guy Pearce, Carrie Anne-Moss and Joe Pantoliano speaks volumes about the fact that he is a director talented actors love working with. Not to mention Memento is regarded as one of the most inventive thrillers ever made and as the definitive film in the neo-noir genre (a genre that Memento invented by the way).

One man's good dialogue, music and script is another man's nightmare. There are very few instances in film where you can say something is definitly a good or bad movie (except for say Uwe Boll's film, which are undenyably bad).

Actually, I can bring up at least 20 different movies (and a LOT more if I actually put my mind to it) where there is pretty much unanimous agreement that a certain movie is either good or bad.
 
Horrorfan said:
X3 was one of those occassions. But then the fact that it owned BB and Superbomb at the box office probably has made some DC fans bitter towards it. But hey, it beat Batman Begins which is awesome in my book. I guess its not so awesome for Batman fans :(
It's not awesome for anyone who likes quality movies. X3 beating Begins isn't hard. X3 is following 2 successful comic book movies. Begins didn't have the ensemble cast with popular actors (Freeman, Neeson, and Caine are good, but they don't have the star-power like Berry or Jackman). Plus, Begins was the first Batman movie in 8 years and didn't have a big marketing force behind it like X3 did.
 
Not to mention kids were more interested in X3 than the much,much darker BB. And kids are the biggest draw to these types of movies.:o
 
Morgan Freeman is an excellent actor. Same with Michael Caine and Liam Neeson.

Halle Berry and Hugh Jackman may be popular, but neither are nowhere close to the quality of those 3.

I will always take quality over popularity every single day
 
Addendum said:
Morgan Freeman is an excellent actor. Same with Michael Caine and Liam Neeson.

Halle Berry and Hugh Jackman may be popular, but neither are nowhere close to the quality of those 3.

I will always take quality over popularity every single day

I said star power, not acting ability. There's no question that Jackman and Berry are more popular amongst the general public than Freeman, Caine, and Neeson.
 
**** star power. It means nothing. I focus on the acting ability, not how many damned magazine covers they get
 

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