You need to Volunteer.....NOW!

[Victarion]

That's a pretty self centered way of looking at it. I'm a little different in that if I believe in something I try and give back. I like living here so I thought it a good idea to actually defend this country that accepted me. Apparently there's nothing of value for a human being in either the military or helping others. Boy I've really wasted my time.

Now I'm gonna say you're just about at the line calling people in the service puppets and suckers and I'm was just about to call you out on it, but really people like you just aren't worth it.

Enjoy your pedistal and I hope you're not too lonely up there by yourself.

I appologize for not being more specific; if you joined the Armed Services, or if you want to join the Armed Services, I respect your decision. You're all over there fighting for us. That is, we'd be there if you weren't, so thank you, MD.

Now, I only call people who mindlessly go along with what the Government says puppets. This assumes they may have wanted to question what they were told to do, but conformed because it was expected of them.

I would question, and I would follow the course of action that benefits me first and foremost.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I appologize for not being more specific; if you joined the Armed Services, or if you want to join the Armed Services, I respect your decision. You're all over there fighting for us. That is, we'd be there if you weren't, so thank you, MD.

Now, I only call people who mindlessly go along with what the Government says puppets. This assumes they may have wanted to question what they were told to do, but conformed because it was expected of them.

I would question, and I would follow the course of action that benefits me first and foremost.

my bad for misunderstanding.

 

[Malice]

I was somewhat looking into this...
Doesnt this violate the 13th amendment?
Slavery?

 

[moraldeficiency]

I was somewhat looking into this...
Doesnt this violate the 13th amendment?
Slavery?

In a way yes it does, but then so does school.

 

[Malice]

In a way yes it does, but then so does school.

true...but a parents can home school

 

[moraldeficiency]

true...but a parent can home school

with most parents, that's real slavery.

 

[Malice]

Except we force kids to get an education already but nobody complains about these kids loss of liberty when they are forced to go. In the end middle/high school may be something that they may not like, but can be linked towards making sure that the public good is served by having a higher degree of educated citizens and it betters their lives. If we can reasonably demonstrate that having these kids do civic service is not only good for the community but good for the kids then how is this any different then the public education system we have now?

Kids can be home schooled...

 

[Malice]

I dont want the government telling me I have to do anything...simple as that.
Having trully Volunteer programs, that is a noble cause...
Having MANDATORY "Volunteer" programs is just stupid.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I dont want the government telling me I have to do anything...simple as that.
Having trully Volunteer programs, that is a noble cause...
Having MANDATORY "Volunteer" programs is just stupid.

uh laws, taxes, city ordinances, etc....we already get told quite a lot. Much as I would love to walk down the streets naked with the exception of a bow tie smoking crystal meth and randomly shooting people, I just can't. ****ing hippies.

 

[bell110]

uh laws, taxes, city ordinances, etc....we already get told quite a lot. Much as I would love to walk down the streets naked with the exception of a bow tie smoking crystal meth and randomly shooting people, I just can't. ****ing hippies.

Then why add one more thing to what we have to do? I don't know about you, but I'd be pissed if me or anyone in my family were forced to go to Iraq to fight Bush's war.

It's kind of hypocritical for you to get upset when you thought that one guy said people in the service are puppets and suckers when in the next post you say, "Now I'm saying it'll NEVER happen, people here are far too lazy and egocentric for the idea". It sounds like you're implying that if you don't agree with the idea it's because you are fat and lazy.

I agree, it's nice that people give back to their country, but honestly, it's every Americans God given right not to do a damn thing for it, and that is what makes our country great.

By the way, you know rich people would find a way to exempt themselves from this "mandatory volunteer" work, so that kind of kills your theory that it would teach rich people what hard work really it. And I find it sad that rich people would gladly force young people into this mandatory volunteer work in the name of "sacrifice for your country", but they lose their **** if they are ask to sacrifice a bigger part of their paycheck for threir country.

 

[The Major]

Then why add one more thing to what we have to do? I don't know about you, but I'd be pissed if me or anyone in my family were forced to go to Iraq to fight Bush's war.

Community service is nowhere near as harsh as a military draft.

It's kind of hypocritical for you to get upset when you thought that one guy said people in the service are puppets and suckers when in the next post you say, "Now I'm saying it'll NEVER happen, people here are far too lazy and egocentric for the idea". It sounds like you're implying that if you don't agree with the idea it's because you are fat and lazy.

While the concept are similar, they are not exactly the same situations. Soldiers go through incredible training and have to survive in terrifying situations which put their lives at risk. That is not what's happening here. You're comparing picking up trash in streets to firefights with suicidal terrorists.

I agree, it's nice that people give back to their country, but honestly, it's every Americans God given right not to do a damn thing for it, and that is what makes our country great.

Even when their own country falls apart around them?

By the way, you know rich people would find a way to exempt themselves from this "mandatory volunteer" work, so that kind of kills your theory that it would teach rich people what hard work really it. And I find it sad that rich people would gladly force young people into this mandatory volunteer work in the name of "sacrifice for your country", but they lose their **** if they are ask to sacrifice a bigger part of their paycheck for threir country.

Agreed.

 

[Schlosser85]

I. Do. Not. Have. To. Volunteer.

Simple as that, and if the government says I do, it can kiss my ass.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Then why add one more thing to what we have to do? I don't know about you, but I'd be pissed if me or anyone in my family were forced to go to Iraq to fight Bush's war.

It's kind of hypocritical for you to get upset when you thought that one guy said people in the service are puppets and suckers when in the next post you say, "Now I'm saying it'll NEVER happen, people here are far too lazy and egocentric for the idea". It sounds like you're implying that if you don't agree with the idea it's because you are fat and lazy.

I agree, it's nice that people give back to their country, but honestly, it's every Americans God given right not to do a damn thing for it, and that is what makes our country great.

By the way, you know rich people would find a way to exempt themselves from this "mandatory volunteer" work, so that kind of kills your theory that it would teach rich people what hard work really it. And I find it sad that rich people would gladly force young people into this mandatory volunteer work in the name of "sacrifice for your country", but they lose their **** if they are ask to sacrifice a bigger part of their paycheck for threir country.

Already did the Iraq dance pre-Bush.

My thought was make every US citizen do two years of some service post high school. Whether it be the military, some humanatarian group, some civil service type thing, etc. This would A. Give citizens a taste of giving back to a place that really coddles everyone to an extent most have no idea about. B. Effectively give citizens some training and job skills and an idea of what work is going to be like, probably helping them decide what to persue in college or the job world without randomly jumping in. C. Help this country or it's citizens in some pretty big ways. You would choose what you did, but you would have to do something.

No, that's not what I'm implying. I'm saying the average US citizen is a lazy and self entitled without reason. This isn't just knocking US citizens though, go anywhere and you'll see a host of problems in other country's. The problem here is there's too much freedom and too little responsibilty. I misunderstood what WA said and apologized for it though, so I'm not sure where you're going with this point. He wasn't saying people in the service were like that, he said as much with the next post. You're pick and choosing conclusions and points randomly here.

God given right? That's adorable. Do athiests count on this? How the hell does anyone have any god given rights at all? This is the sense of arrogance I'm speaking about. The only rights you or I can have are possessed by the prospect of forceful intervention. If the US fell and you didn't have the US military and police force to back up your "rights" they cease to exist pretty damn quick. Your rights only apply until someone that can impose his/her will on you decides to take them away.

Why would the rich be exempt? They're not exempt from school are they? I'm sure some would find a way around it, but you can bet there would be a level of distain for those that did so. They wouldn't get elected to public office and people that served wouldn't have much respect for those *****es. Shame is a great motivator. But I agree about taxation, if the rich don't pony up they're gonna regret it.

 

[bell110]

Community service is nowhere near as harsh as a military draft.

I was refering to what moraldeficiency said here:

Again, I just think it would do this country a lot of good if everyone was required to do say two years in either the service or an appropriate help program after high school.

I assume when he says service, he means actual service, and I don't know what an "appropriate help program" would be, but it's ridiculous to the that an 18 year old should be forced to do anything he doesn't want to do.

While the concept are similar, they are not exactly the same situations. Soldiers go through incredible training and have to survive in terrifying situations which put their lives at risk. That is not what's happening here. You're comparing picking up trash in streets to firefights with suicidal terrorists.

I'm not sure what you thought I ment with that, but I was just saying that you can't get upset if someone says soldiers are puppets and then say people object to this idea on the basis that they are fat and lazy. Calling people names because they don't have the same ideals as you isn't right for either side.

Even when their own country falls apart around them?

Yes, sad but true. Obviously, if our country comes to that point, the people that don't help will probably become social outcasts.

Agreed.

Cool

 

[The Major]

I was refering to what moraldeficiency said here:


I assume when he says service, he means actual service, and I don't know what an "appropriate help program" would be, but it's ridiculous to the that an 18 year old should be forced to do anything he doesn't want to do.



I'm not sure what you thought I ment with that, but I was just saying that you can't get upset if someone says soldiers are puppets and then say people object to this idea on the basis that they are fat and lazy. Calling people names because they don't have the same ideals as you isn't right for either side.

Okay.

Yes, sad but true. Obviously, if our country comes to that point,

The country is incredibly close to that point. Tent cities have appeared in a few cities IIRC. Foreclosures have skyrocketed. Healthy business and citizens with good credit have been hurt by the banks, which in turn heightens the situation more.

the people that don't help will probably become social outcasts.

I disagree. Apathy and selfishness still is rampant in society. If it weren't there would be no need for the community service program being mandatory.

Cool

 

[bell110]

Already did the Iraq dance pre-Bush.

My thought was make every US citizen do two years of some service post high school. Whether it be the military, some humanatarian group, some civil service type thing, etc. This would A. Give citizens a taste of giving back to a place that really coddles everyone to an extent most have no idea about. B. Effectively give citizens some training and job skills and an idea of what work is going to be like, probably helping them decide what to persue in college or the job world without randomly jumping in. C. Help this country or it's citizens in some pretty big ways. You would choose what you did, but you would have to do something.

That is nice and all, but I'm against forcing anybody to do anything they don't wan't. BTW, kids being forced to go to school doesn't count because they are minors. Also, what would happen if too many people chose one thing, and not enough people chose something else?

No, that's not what I'm implying. I'm saying the average US citizen is a lazy and self entitled without reason. This isn't just knocking US citizens though, go anywhere and you'll see a host of problems in other country's. The problem here is there's too much freedom and too little responsibilty. I misunderstood what WA said and apologized for it though, so I'm not sure where you're going with this point. He wasn't saying people in the service were like that, he said as much with the next post. You're pick and choosing conclusions and points randomly here.

I saw where he clearified himself. I just saw a couple of post where it seemed you thought people didn't like this idea because they are fat and lazy. If that is not what you ment, I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

God given right? That's adorable. Do athiests count on this? How the hell does anyone have any god given rights at all? This is the sense of arrogance I'm speaking about. The only rights you or I can have are possessed by the prospect of forceful intervention. If the US fell and you didn't have the US military and police force to back up your "rights" they cease to exist pretty damn quick. Your rights only apply until someone that can impose his/her will on you decides to take them away.

Yes athiests count. The fact that we have free will is how we have "God given rights". I don't what this to turn into a thread about philosopies of law, but even though men can make laws that take away (or grant, depending on how you look at it) rights, doesn't mean they're not there. Regardless, we have a right as Americans to not care about America.

Why would the rich be exempt? They're not exempt from school are they? I'm sure some would find a way around it, but you can bet there would be a level of distain for those that did so. They wouldn't get elected to public office and people that served wouldn't have much respect for those *****es. Shame is a great motivator. But I agree about taxation, if the rich don't pony up they're gonna regret it.

They would find a way to exempt themselves. And there would be a certain level of distain, but you know how the political spin machine works. Think about all the crap elected officials get away with now anyways. And shame isn't a motivator to someone who is shameless.

 

[Malice]

I am not speaking for anyone else...
But if the US was being invaded...my big butt would be one of the first to volunteer to save the country...without hesitation or reservation. The only thing I would say to my wife is, I fear leaving her alone if I was to be killed.

Now....Mandatory Volunteering...that to me is a gross violation of the constitution...I am not speaking of other issues...like school etc...just this one issue.

I am all for people Volunteering, I think its a great thing...I say expand the volunteer programs...as long as it stays....VOLUNTEER-ONLY

 

[BlackLantern]

Yes athiests count. The fact that we have free will is how we have "God given rights". I don't what this to turn into a thread about philosopies of law, but even though men can make laws that take away (or grant, depending on how you look at it) rights, doesn't mean they're not there. Regardless, we have a right as Americans to not care about America.

and you don't see anything wrong with that??

 

[bell110]

Okay.



The country is incredibly close to that point. Tent cities have appeared in a few cities IIRC. Foreclosures have skyrocketed. Healthy business and citizens with good credit have been hurt by the banks, which in turn heightens the situation more.


I disagree. Apathy and selfishness still is rampant in society. If it weren't there would be no need for the community service program being mandatory.

We're not there yet, and hopefully we won't. I see what you're saying about selfishness and apathy still being rampant. But I think if things get really bad, way worse than things are now, people will become more helpful. Of course, it will be way late then, but we will have no one to blame but ourselves. Besides, how is volunteer work going to help what is wrong with the country now?

 

[Malice]

Rights of Disagreement and Point of view is critical to the US.

I definately don't like the idea of Americans hating America....
but...
I DEEPLY want them to have that ability to disagree with me.

For instance, burning of the American Flag.
I believe its wrong....
BUT
I believe it is a US Citizens RIGHT to do it.

I will stand up for that right as well.

 

[bell110]

and you don't see anything wrong with that??

I'd be more concerned if we were forced to care about America.

 

[Malice]

I'd be more concerned if we were forced to care about America.

*points gun at bell110*
You care about America.......right?

 

[moraldeficiency]

That is nice and all, but I'm against forcing anybody to do anything they don't wan't. BTW, kids being forced to go to school doesn't count because they are minors. Also, what would happen if too many people chose one thing, and not enough people chose something else?

Hey I don't want to pay taxes, you gonna help me out with that? Oh, so minors don't have rights? I didn't realize that. What would happen, that one thing would be propped up and the other wouldn't. But it wouldn't hurt anything, and it might give us a good pulse for the next generation.

I saw where he clearified himself. I just saw a couple of post where it seemed you thought people didn't like this idea because they are fat and lazy. If that is not what you ment, I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

I was talking about the people in this country as a whole. And yes, fat, lazy and stupid cause we are a massive collective group and those always filter to the LCD. How do I know? Bush elected twice. American Idol is popular and Arrested Development or Life on Mars (awesome episode yesterday) get cancelled. The difference you're not seeing is a select group made out of a personal choice (the military) vs. just a large combined mass that makes McDonalds one of the most successful "restaurants" in this country.

Yes athiests count. The fact that we have free will is how we have "God given rights". I don't what this to turn into a thread about philosopies of law, but even though men can make laws that take away (or grant, depending on how you look at it) rights, doesn't mean they're not there. Regardless, we have a right as Americans to not care about America.

No, we really don't have any of that. You know how many people were slaves throughout history? Didn't they have free will? How about the jews or russians during WW2, what happened there? Freedom is not god given, it is only achieved at the end of a gun barrell. That's how it's been for every free society thoughout history and btw, every one of those "free" societies had slaves at one point or another in their history.

Right to not care? I guess you have the freedom to think what you want, but your rights once again are only there because there are guys standing behind you with guns. Though I'd like to see how you're "rights" would stand up if you were talking that **** in a service bar. You'd find out pretty quick you're right not to care can be upsurped by their "right" to kick your teeth in. What's more when the cops arrived you might see your "rights" vanish as cops would almost certianly cover for those guys (seen it first hand way too often, a military ID is almost a get out of jail free card), hell they might actually take you to jail for starting the fight. As the robot devil so articulately puts it, "That's Ironic!"

They would find a way to exempt themselves. And there would be a certain level of distain, but you know how the political spin machine works. Think about all the crap elected officials get away with now anyways. And shame isn't a motivator to someone who is shameless.

You're assuming something is an absolute on a hypothetical situation? Do you see the flaw in that?

Shame leads to hate, hate to anger, anger to pain and the force....opps channeling yoda here. Shame works even on the shameless. There's a difference between no sense of personal shame and having everyone hate you.

 

[bell110]

*points gun at bell110*
You care about America.......right?

Ah... Yes!!

 

[bell110]

Hey I don't want to pay taxes, you gonna help me out with that? Oh, so minors don't have rights? I didn't realize that. What would happen, that one thing would be propped up and the other wouldn't. But it wouldn't hurt anything, and it might give us a good pulse for the next generation.

I'm a libertarian, but I do realize there are a need for certain things to be enforced. I don't like taxes, but I understand they are a necessary evil. Minors do not have the same rights as adults, don't act ignorant. Once you turn 18, at least in my school district, you could leave school if you wanted. Until then, you are stuck. The problem with your two examples 1. Taxes are necessary, the Mandatory Volunteer Act (MVA for here on out) is not, 2. Most people are 18 after H.S. and are an adult under the law.

I was talking about the people in this country as a whole. And yes, fat, lazy and stupid cause we are a massive collective group and those always filter to the LCD. How do I know? Bush elected twice. American Idol is popular and Arrested Development or Life on Mars (awesome episode yesterday) get cancelled. The difference you're not seeing is a select group made out of a personal choice (the military) vs. just a large combined mass that makes McDonalds one of the most successful "restaurants" in this country.

You're not seeing what I meant. It seemed like you were making the connection that people who do not like the idea of the MVA do so because they are fat and lazy, ie, me, Malice, and everyone else that expressed so. You said you didn't mean it like that and I apologized. It's a moot point. BTW, I'm well aware that there are lots of fat, lazy, stupid people in the country.

No, we really don't have any of that. You know how many people were slaves throughout history? Didn't they have free will? How about the jews or russians during WW2, what happened there? Freedom is not god given, it is only achieved at the end of a gun barrell. That's how it's been for every free society thoughout history and btw, every one of those "free" societies had slaves at one point or another in their history.

Yes, slaves do have a God given right to be free, but someone denied them that right. You have it backwards, oppression is achieved at the end of a gun barrell, or sword, or giant stick. Just because someone denies you your rights, doesn't mean they are not there.

Right to not care? I guess you have the freedom to think what you want, but your rights once again are only there because there are guys standing behind you with guns. Though I'd like to see how you're "rights" would stand up if you were talking that **** in a service bar. You'd find out pretty quick you're right not to care can be upsurped by their "right" to kick your teeth in.

Classic. I call this the Soldiers Hypocracy. I've seen it plenty of times. The mindset of, "I've fought to uphold your rights under the constitution, so if you hold a negative opinion of my, I'll kick your ass." Seriously, I hope you are not one of those guys.

What's more when the cops arrived you might see your "rights" vanish as cops would almost certianly cover for those guys (seen it first hand way too often, a military ID is almost a get out of jail free card), hell they might actually take you to jail for starting the fight. As the robot devil so articulately puts it, "That's Ironic!"

Ok, and you were complaining about other people having a false sense of entitlement.

You're assuming something is an absolute on a hypothetical situation? Do you see the flaw in that?

Shame leads to hate, hate to anger, anger to pain and the force....opps channeling yoda here. Shame works even on the shameless. There's a difference between no sense of personal shame and having everyone hate you.

This whole thread is an assumtion on a hypothetical. The idea that the MVA will hypothetically make people a better person. I'm just making my assumption based on how often I see politicians do cruddy **** and get away with it.