You need to Volunteer.....NOW!

[moraldeficiency]

I'm a libertarian, but I do realize there are a need for certain things to be enforced. I don't like taxes, but I understand they are a necessary evil. Minors do not have the same rights as adults, don't act ignorant. Once you turn 18, at least in my school district, you could leave school if you wanted. Until then, you are stuck. The problem with your two examples 1. Taxes are necessary, the Mandatory Volunteer Act (MVA for here on out) is not, 2. Most people are 18 after H.S. and are an adult under the law.

Good so you recognize you're not completely free and you do have certian obligations you must follow or be held accountable. Now we're just arguing how much of your freedom you don't have and how much the gov. should be allowed to take from you as part of you getting to live here.

And you're right minors don't have the same rights, but that's not right at all really. All people should have those rights, and minors shouldn't be an exception to that. It's no where in the constitution or bill of rights, it's just something adults do to kids cause they can. Kinda like slavery.

You're not seeing what I meant. It seemed like you were making the connection that people who do not like the idea of the MVA do so because they are fat and lazy, ie, me, Malice, and everyone else that expressed so. You said you didn't mean it like that and I apologized. It's a moot point. BTW, I'm well aware that there are lots of fat, lazy, stupid people in the country.

Oh, not at all. People are entitled to their own opinions and while I'm sure some that would be opposed to the idea oppose it cause it would get in the way of daytime television and fritos, but I was making the blanket statement that a large group such as all us citizens would fall to the LCD in most matters.

Yes, slaves do have a God given right to be free, but someone denied them that right. You have it backwards, oppression is achieved at the end of a gun barrell, or sword, or giant stick. Just because someone denies you your rights, doesn't mean they are not there.

Right, you only have the rights you can enforce. If you can't you only have the rights someone stronger lets you have. "Just because someone denies you your rights, doesn't mean they are not there." That's an interesting statement. As a mental concept I would agree but as something you could put into physical form that's not true at all. You might feel you have the right to not say serve in the service but if you were drafted and hit up you might find that right only exists in your dreams.

Classic. I call this the Soldiers Hypocracy. I've seen it plenty of times. The mindset of, "I've fought to uphold your rights under the constitution, so if you hold a negative opinion of my, I'll kick your ass." Seriously, I hope you are not one of those guys.

I would agree, and no I'm absolutely not that type of person. I was using a case of bullies to show that your rights don't necessarily exist in every context in this country.

Ok, and you were complaining about other people having a false sense of entitlement.

Hey just calling it like it is. Personally i ****ing hate cops (a lot being bullies or military wannabes) and dispise bullies, but they exist and in large numbers. Just a hypothetical situation though.

This whole thread is an assumtion on a hypothetical. The idea that the MVA will hypothetically make people a better person. I'm just making my assumption based on how often I see politicians do cruddy **** and get away with it.

Yes, it is but I'm not saying any absolutes about this. I'm not saying this would happen if this happened, just what I think might happen and what the results could be. To say all rich would surely dodge service I believe is incorrect or at the least reaching for an absolute conclusion based on personal opinions. Most politicans do get away with that ****, but there are also some notable exceptions.

 

[Tally Man]

Kids can be home schooled...

Indeed they can but that's an alternative to public education just like private schools. That doesn't mean kids are free from getting an education. They are stuck any way you look at it. And if forcing kids to go to has legitimate reasons such as benefiting the kids along with the community, then how is having mandatory civic service work any different from having a public education system like we do?

 

[The Major]

We're not there yet, and hopefully we won't. I see what you're saying about selfishness and apathy still being rampant. But I think if things get really bad, way worse than things are now, people will become more helpful. Of course, it will be way late then, but we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Agreed.

Besides, how is volunteer work going to help what is wrong with the country now?

It can't hurt it. It'll get people more involved with their communities and allow those communities to be in better shape when they otherwise wouldn't have been.

 

[Kelly]

I just don't see the problem.....

I have only seen positive things come from my school's mandatory community service.

Many kids have said how glad they are that we do this, because they may not have done all that they had done without it....

 

[Scarlet spidey]

Why don't we just burn the constitution already?
Nobody listens to it anymore.

 

[Malice]

This to me is akin to the Police creating Drunk Driving checkpoints....
Where they pull every 20th car over to check for a DD.

That is just wrong...

Like scarlet says...why not just shread whats left of the constitution, its obviously not meaning anything to anyone anymore

 

[moraldeficiency]

the bill of rights was actually recently made an illegal document by new drug laws and legally should actually be burned. Fun fact.

 

[Malice]

I heard an audio clip that the hitman Raum was quoted on stating college kids would take 3 months in "training"

 

[Paradyme]

I heard an audio clip that the hitman Raum was quoted on stating college kids would take 3 months in "training"

I refuse to go as I'm sure many will.

 

[Schlosser85]

Um, while I'm going to college (and working), I don't have time to do anything else.

 

[Marx]

I'm still not sure how I feel about this. It's one thing to volunteer, it's quite another to be forced to volunteer.

 

[SuBe]

Marx, it's a BAD thing.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Except when we do it to minors of course.

I'd say the problem is in the name, volunteering shouldn't be mandatory but I think some civil service should be for all citizens and anyone who wants to be a citizen.

 

[BlackLantern]

even John Stewart bought it up last night on the Daily Show...."how is Obama supposed to re-educate our children, we have to educate them first"

we can barely get kids to attend school....hows this whole mess going to be 'mandatory'??

 

[SuBe]

Except when we do it to minors of course.

I'd say the problem is in the name, volunteering shouldn't be mandatory but I think some civil service should be for all citizens and anyone who wants to be a citizen.

How do we require Minors to do it, except of course attending school, how does the Federal Government really require any service from Minors?

 

[moraldeficiency]

We require minors to go to school and perform civil service to complete high school. I'd say that making some civil service commitment after high school would better prepare people for the world, help the community in some way, help ensure a very important sense of citizen ownership in goverment, almost certianly improve voting and political awareness, and give nearly free workers to important programs which might free up some money for other things like nation healthcare. Also it would be a good measuring stick for immigrants, if you want to come here and live here rathr than endless paperwork you'll have to do something to improve this country before you're a citizen. Keep out the freeloaders and make the honest hardworking types feel like they have a personal sake in this place. I really can see no negatives to this other than the freedom issue, and even then I would consider this more an extension of schooling than anything else.


BL, it's not that bad, attendence is pretty good it's what's taught inside the school that needs to be worked on.

 

[Matt]

This is going to become a law that is void of teeth as there will be no way to enforce it. What will you do? Send kids to juvi hall for not fulfilling their forced community service? As BlackLantern said, we can't get kids to go to school, how will we get them to do this? Plus, volunteer work means nothing if it is forced, so what is the point anyway? You'll have a bunch of kids who could care less about what they're doing half assing it.

 

[BlackLantern]

We require minors to go to school and perform civil service to complete high school. I'd say that making some civil service commitment after high school would better prepare people for the world, help the community in some way, help ensure a very important sense of citizen ownership in goverment, almost certianly improve voting and political awareness, and give nearly free workers to important programs which might free up some money for other things like nation healthcare. Also it would be a good measuring stick for immigrants, if you want to come here and live here rathr than endless paperwork you'll have to do something to improve this country before you're a citizen. Keep out the freeloaders and make the honest hardworking types feel like they have a personal sake in this place. I really can see no negatives to this other than the freedom issue, and even then I would consider this more an extension of schooling than anything else.


BL, it's not that bad, attendence is pretty good it's what's taught inside the school that needs to be worked on.

maybe where you live....inner cities in CT, MA, and NY have horrible attendance numbers

 

[moraldeficiency]

This is going to become a law that is void of teeth as there will be no way to enforce it. What will you do? Send kids to juvi hall for not fulfilling their forced community service? As BlackLantern said, we can't get kids to go to school, how will we get them to do this? Plus, volunteer work means nothing if it is forced, so what is the point anyway? You'll have a bunch of kids who could care less about what they're doing half assing it.

But we do make kids go to school. Where are you guys getting the notion they don't? Sure some can get out of it, but that means no HS diploma, no chance of college and no decent job. I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing with this. Israel is able to do this strictly with military service, I'm talking about a choice as to how you serve that would give you valuable life/workskills.

Again don't like using the term volunteer, I'd use the accurate term of civil service and we already make HS kids do this. What's the point of that? Mainly it gives back to the community that provided so much for them, gives them a feel of actual work, helps aid programs that are desperately needed and teaches kids about giving back. I'm sure most don't embrace all those concepts but some do and others get their eyes opened a bit. I just don't see the down side here, it seems the common down side argument is it would be hard to do and that's not really an effective argument against this when it would provide so much good.

Oh, last point: The military wouldn't let you half ass much and as for the other stuff you could do, even half assing it in a soup kitchen helps more people than doing nothing, plus there's the chance you might get that person to give a **** about his/her country and fellow man.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It's my understanding that the word "mandatory" is no where to be found in the act.

Makes it seem like a ******** rumor to me.

 

[SuBe]

We require minors to go to school and perform civil service to complete high school. I'd say that making some civil service commitment after high school would better prepare people for the world, help the community in some way, help ensure a very important sense of citizen ownership in goverment, almost certianly improve voting and political awareness, and give nearly free workers to important programs which might free up some money for other things like nation healthcare. Also it would be a good measuring stick for immigrants, if you want to come here and live here rathr than endless paperwork you'll have to do something to improve this country before you're a citizen. Keep out the freeloaders and make the honest hardworking types feel like they have a personal sake in this place. I really can see no negatives to this other than the freedom issue, and even then I would consider this more an extension of schooling than anything else.


BL, it's not that bad, attendence is pretty good it's what's taught inside the school that needs to be worked on.

You don't see how this is a Violation of Liberty, do you?

 

[BlackLantern]

It's my understanding that the word "mandatory" is no where to be found in the act.

Makes it seem like a ******** rumor to me.

the President and Chief of Staff have stated they want it to be mandatory but I don't think that made it into the bill....I haven't read all of it....just the main part of the bill and a good chunk of the amendments

 

[moraldeficiency]

maybe where you live....inner cities in CT, MA, and NY have horrible attendance numbers

Yeah but you're talking about the very worst parts of the country, it's in no way an appropriate measuring stick for the country as a whole. If that was so shootings would be 8000% above daily averages and crack would be our greatest national resource. But here's the thing, those kids not going to school are ****ed, they're never leaving those places (with a few exceptions of course). I hate the idea of a lost cause but trying to make that work there without major social alterations is damn near impossible. But just cause the hardest up places in the country wouldn't work well with this doesn't mean it wouldn't substantially help this country all the same.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Isn't it some school districts that do that?

If the parents think it's wrong, they could just move I suppose.

That's what I did.

 

[moraldeficiency]

You don't see how this is a Violation of Liberty, do you?

Not anymore than our current mandatory volunteer programs in school, or school itself, or curfews or many many many of the illogical laws we currently suffer under. This one would actually be a postitive in many ways. If you oppose this why aren't you lobbing to fix all of the stuff currently a violation of liberty? It's not like I'm saying people should be slaves to the government, we help raise and teach children through schools and programs this would just be another with a limited time frame that would have substantial benefits to the country and person, while being a major step forward in immigration reform.

We as a country have already chosen that some levels of education and instruction are more important than complete liberties (school), I just think some more education is necessary and this would help the community at the same time. Instead of school to 18 you make it 20 and people go to college of the workforce with far better heads on their shoulders.