The Dark Knight "You've changed things... Forever"

[R_Hythlodeus]

Hey, I got a question about that one fact: was it known before the movie was out..? You know, like a rumor or something like that. But, more than a rumor, a fact.

yes

 

[Arsh]

It was more like crime and corruption created Batman, who in turn facilitated the rise of the freaks in Gotham city.

 

[[A]]

yes

Is that your full statement or would you like to add a few words..?

 

[MrWayne]

yup but imo if u noticed in BB Scarecrow was only wearing the burlap sack mostly when dealing with his patients... in TDK hes shown as making the full transformation to freak by totally becoming the Scarecrow who always wears a mask now... Crane no longer exists...

 

[agentzelda]

True, though I got the impression that Crane had been dressing up and experimenting for a while, and also that Ducard was planning on dosing Gotham for a while... having Bruce on his side just would have made it easier, but he was gonna go through with it anyway.

Ah, but how did Crane gain access to the blue flowers, which were part of his toxin? And how did this guy who seems far too young and unstable end up as administrator of Arkham?

Yes, of course, Ducard's plan predates even Bruce's arrival at his compound; whether Bruce joins it or thwarts it, the plan goes ahead.

Crane obviously isn't League of Shadows material.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Is that your full statement or would you like to add a few words..?

yes, sir?

 

[Arsh]

Ah, but how did Crane gain access to the blue flowers, which were part of his toxin? And how did this guy who seems far too young and unstable end up as administrator of Arkham?

Yes, of course, Ducard's plan predates even Bruce's arrival at his compound; whether Bruce joins it or thwarts it, the plan goes ahead.

Crane obviously isn't League of Shadows material.

Ah damn... too much logic for my brain...

Though, Crane did say that his primary field was psycho pharmacology, so maybe he was experimenting with various other things (he is a doctor, so who knows what he got his hands on), before being given the blue flowers. Though you have a point, how the hell could he become Arkham's administrator? So easy to see he's a raving maniac. Maybe he just covers it well with his narcissistic tendencies?

 

[agentzelda]

Ah damn... too much logic for my brain...

Though, Crane did say that his primary field was psycho pharmacology, so maybe he was experimenting with various other things (he is a doctor, so who knows what he got his hands on), before being given the blue flowers. Though you have a point, how the hell could he become Arkham's administrator? So easy to see he's a raving maniac. Maybe he just covers it well with his narcissistic tendencies?

He covers it up (in BB) with a public persona that is buttoned-down and slightly prissy.

One argument might be that Falcone exercises some influence on whatever body appoints the Arkham administrator, in the same way he influences a lot of the public sector. However, Falcone knows about experiments that Crane conducts, because he researches people he works with, which would seem to imply that Crane was already performing these experiments at Arkham before he got in contact with Falcone to arrange his drug shipments. This would imply that the League got in contact with Crane independently of Falcone, since Falcone is surprised when Crane tells him that "he" is coming to Gotham.

So, ultimately, and whether through Falcone or independently, I'd argue that the League has something to do with Crane being at Arkham.

 

[Arsh]

I wonder if there are any remnants of the League of Shadows left in Gotham. They all couldn't have died or been sent to jail.

 

[TheBat812]

Ah damn... too much logic for my brain...

Though, Crane did say that his primary field was psycho pharmacology, so maybe he was experimenting with various other things (he is a doctor, so who knows what he got his hands on), before being given the blue flowers. Though you have a point, how the hell could he become Arkham's administrator? So easy to see he's a raving maniac. Maybe he just covers it well with his narcissistic tendencies?

It's Gotham. That place is ****ed up.

 

[agentzelda]

I wonder if there are any remnants of the League of Shadows left in Gotham. They all couldn't have died or been sent to jail.

Oh now there's an interesting idea! There's that whole murky area of aftermath of BB: all the missing Arkham inmates/patients etc. It's very very possible some of the League who came to Gotham with Ducard might be biding their time, honing their theatricality and deception skills.

 

[ronny]

Ah, but how did Crane gain access to the blue flowers, which were part of his toxin? And how did this guy who seems far too young and unstable end up as administrator of Arkham?

1. Crane had various toxins. The blue flower only made it stronger. Prior to that he was honing his skills. Remember that Crane has been the Scarecrow for a long time, ever since his high school prom in fact.

2. He got the job by not showing just how unstable he is. So he appears as funny old Dr. Crane. Besides, he worked with Falcone from time to time so that must have helped.

 

[agentzelda]

He seems a little different from the comics Scarecrow (whom I remember from my youth), in that he's very young, and he's a psychiatrist rather than a teacher. But yes, obviously the League took advantage of someone with skills and tendencies they could appeal to and exploit.

 

[Arsh]

OMG, this would be the best scene ever in the third Batman movie, if Nolan does one. Scarecrow sprays Joker with fear toxin, and then Joker beats him to death. That would just be so funny to me.

 

[agentzelda]

Much as I like Cillian Murphy, I do find Crane irritating, and that would be a good way for him to go (though for my fanfiction I want him to be around a while since he does figure in it, oh, roughly 5-6 years after the end of TDK).

 

[Visceral]

There's a really good Batman : TAS where they get captured and they put him on trial.

The villains created Batman, not vice versa.

What was the name of this great episode?

It is obvious the idea of who is guilty is a huge theme in all of Batman's stories and I remember seeing this episode and being intrigued with it when I was younger but at the same time being frustrated that Batman's only response was just "No! you created me!"

The episode didn't take it to the level that The Dark Knight or the Long Halloween and Dark Victory took it to. I say this because the villians were right to an extent, but then so was batman. Tim Burton says it best with you created me and I created you.

Ledger saying "you complete me" has meaning behind it. Escalation is a lot like evolution. Batman was created because the good need something better to fight the mob. Supervillians were created in response to Batman's extremely aggressive behavior outside of the law.

"I think were are destined to do this forever" is a beautiful line. It is more a statement on the fight between good and evil. The Joker knows its human nature to break rules and laws, so there is truly no perfect institution, and Batman knows that people need rules to survive(It's Batman's rule that saved the Joker's life). They are stuck in this fight, neither can surrender and neither can be truly victorious.

I am reminded of a great line in Pirates Of the Carribean spoken by Captain Barbossa.

"So what now Jack Sparrow? Are we two immortals locked in epic battle till the Judgement day when the trumpets sound?"

"Or you could surrender" says Jack Sparrow but of course he can't, so why would Barbossa?

Kinda makes me happy and sad that Batman and the Joker will always exist in one form or another.

 

[The Joker]

What was the name of this great episode?

Trial. Excellent episode.

 

[agentzelda]

I have a terrible confession to make: I've never seen BTAS. I really don't watch much TV; I mostly have a TV to watch the news and so I'll have a monitor to watch movies on. But I'm a sucker for cheap dvds, and I know Future Shop usually has compilations of it quite reasonably priced. So is it worth a marathon viewing some holiday weekend? (The only contemporary animated Batman I've seen was Mask of the Phantasm, which I liked.)

 

[Anita18]

A shrink might say that perhaps the fact that his stories tend to deal with the betrayal of loved ones might indicate some family trauma, but I think he tells them because they push the buttons of his victims: they challenge their taboos. His motives in not going for cosmetic surgery might be quite different from Harvey's, or they might not be all that different.

I believe he tells the scar stories to mess with people's heads before he messes them up physically. The very question "Wanna know how I got these scars?" implies to his victims that he was once normal, like everyone else, and that the scars turned him into the freak he is now, and in short order, aforementioned victims will be just as freakish as he is.

 

[MrWayne]

But i like i mentioned above, in BB theres that Crane/Scarecrow entity, in TDk he seems to be fully engulfed in his Scarecrow persona where hes no longer working at the asylum but has become a drug supplyer of sorts who enjoys lacing the drugs with fear toxins...
in Nolans universe i wonder if Joker is even famaliar with Scarecrow..
this movie has some powerful dialogue and my favorites are the moments between Batman & Joker.. for me personally theres just something more goin on there when Joker speaks to him, its with such conviction.. i wish they had more screen time together..

 

[MrWayne]

I believe he tells the scar stories to mess with people's heads before he messes them up physically. The very question "Wanna know how I got these scars?" implies to his victims that he was once normal, like everyone else, and that the scars turned him into the freak he is now, and in short order, aforementioned victims will be just as freakish as he is.

I like to think that the stories are true whereas each scar has its own story.. one side was done by his father, the other was self inflicted as he mentions to Rachel... i mean both look like different kinds of scars...but then i wonder... what version was he about to tell Batman??

 

[CFE]

Kevin Smith gives his take on the concept of Batman and his villians in the "History of Batman" documentary:

Something tragic happens to each and everyone of these men and women that psychologically spins them off into the direction of their costumed personalities.

Aside from that, the concepts are fairly common place...

the ones about how Batman's presence in Gotham attracts the attention for criminals, seeing taking Batman down as a challenge...Gordon calling him on the threat of escalation and how no matter how hard Batman pushes, the criminal element will push back...the idea of mobsters vs. freaks...And the newest one, which is the concept of common criminals being ironically inspired by Batman into becoming a symbol of their very own.

It all fits...take your pick

CFE

 

[MrWayne]

^^ yea i can dig that .... works for me...

 

[Anita18]

I like to think that the stories are true whereas each scar has its own story.. one side was done by his father, the other was self inflicted as he mentions to Rachel... i mean both look like different kinds of scars...but then i wonder... what version was he about to tell Batman??

I personally don't think any of the scar stories are true - Joker just reads people so well that he makes them up to maximally creep out each individual victim.

Gambol gets angrily defensive when Joker mentions his grandma, so it's a fairly logical conclusion that his biological mother and father didn't have the rosiest fate...

Not sure how Joker read Rachel, but his scar story for her reflects her own abandonment of Bruce when he became Batman. He implies that both he and Batman were inspired to become freaks by the women who they loved, and who eventually left them because of it.

If Joker had the chance to finish his scar story for Batman hehe: ), I imagine it would entail him trying to do the right thing, but being punished for it by having his face carved up. Or maybe that would have been Harvey's scar story, but Bruce and Harvey are pretty much the same in that regard.

 

[MrWayne]

it would be interesting to show in the next film that years have passed in Gotham... Things have gotten worse...Gordon has gone grey hair due to aging and stress.. the Freakish criminal elements are everywhere... and The Batman, now knowing what he would have to become in order to stop men like that.. is much less hesistant now to kill for the greater good.. he now has no rules.. truly has no limits... that would be a very interesting scenerio to see....