Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 6

[chintai80]

all y'all fake fans.

i was lined up around the block around grand lake theater in oakland, waiting in line, on opening night for batman 1989.

where were you on june 23, 1989 huh?! huh?!

 

[kguillou]

all y'all fake fans.

i was lined up around the block around grand lake theater in oakland, waiting in line, on opening night for batman 1989.

where were you on june 23, 1989 huh?! huh?!

Ironically that very same Batman was also goin around and dropping thugs left amd right. At one point in the movie, he's in the batplane literally trying to gun down the Joker. But Tim Burton was smart though, he made his world gritty yet cartoony enough that people didnt take Batman's ...liberal methods too seriously.

Btw, Burton's Batman is my personal favorite iteration of the character.

 

[heatvision38]

There's nothing wrong with changes to a character. Some changes make a characterisation better. It's just dumb changes that I have a problem with. Changes made for the sake of it. Or ones that detract from the character, instead of adding to it. Like making Bruce Wayne a sex and alcohol addict to deal with his pain - when, you know, that's the main reason he is Batman.

The point was that he has been going further off the deep end since the invasion in Metropolis, that he feels even more powerless, hence the branding, being more violent, sex, booze, pain meds, etc. That's clearly established in the movie.

 

[heatvision38]

For some of us it is a big deal.

This comment makes it seem like you are making fun of people who don't like this change. Like we're somehow whinging and being petty about this stuff.

It makes you come off as a hypocrite.

I think BN is reacting to someone saying he can't be a true Batman fan if he does like these changes.

 

[heatvision38]

Oh, okay. Fair enough. I may have done you a disservice if you’re not a big Batman comic fan. I can understand why you would be less bothered, if you’re not as invested.

Okay, I'll bite. Batman is my second favorite superhero. I have read many, many, many in-canon Batman comics and other comics he is in, as well as Elsworlds, watched the various animated shows, watched all the movies and TV shows, played the video games. I know the character pretty damn well. And yet I felt incredibly connected to this version of Batman because he felt very human to me. Does this mean I am not a true Batman fan?

 

[chintai80]

Ironically that very same Batman was also goin around and dropping thugs left amd right. At one point in the movie, he's in the batplane literally trying to gun down the Joker. But Tim Burton was smart though, he made his world gritty yet cartoony enough that people didnt take Batman's ...liberal methods too seriously.

Btw, Burton's Batman is my personal favorite iteration of the character.

yep. it's the live action version that is closest to the original conception of the character in fact.
as i said before, it's as if tim burton just read the first couple of stories of batman ever released, and said f*** it to the rest.

The point was that he has been going further off the deep end since the invasion in Metropolis, that he feels even more powerless, hence the branding, being more violent, sex, booze, pain meds, etc. That's clearly established in the movie.

a batman who smashing chicks is probably more healthy and emotionally well-balanced than a celibate batman.
i would not want to be that thug that gets accosted by a batman who has not smashed any womens in a long time.
u dead if that batman finds you.

 

[heatvision38]

Okay. That’s fair enough. I struggle to see how anyone can be that invested in Batman if they’re not a big fan of the comics, but as you say, different takes. To me, Snyder simply takes too many liberties with the character I’ve been reading for thirty years, and the changes he does make show a marked lack of understanding and knowledge of Batman. However, I also cheerfully accept others do not see it the same way.

I would argue he shows a great level of understanding of the character if such a character existed. The PTSD aspect of the character is often underplayed. The violence is often played off as, "Well, he's Batman, he gets the job done, he's still a hero." But the violence is rarely ever focused on as something that can be truly disturbing. These are all aspects of the character that I think Snyder got across in BvS and I personally loved it. It's not the only way to show us Batman, but's A way, and I loved it.

 

[Limonade]

Think of it this way. Superman and Batman aren't new brands. Snyder's approach was to deconstruct-reconstruct the glut of continuity and nostalgia associated with these characters so they could be brought to the existing fanbase of people open to new takes and a new audience of people for whom the previous takes hadn't worked. I recall seeing a few people say that, for them, this was the first Superman that really worked for them. I believe Snyder trusted that the characters were strong enough as characters and as icons to withstand deconstruction that was designed to examine or challenge aspects of the characters and ultimately develop them or reconstruct them into something closer to expectations. It's a process that takes time and asks much of the audience, but I think it has its rewards.

Glut of continuity and nostalgia? Nobody was asking for continuity after Superman Returns. And Nostalgia isn't bad if done right with a message that's timeless and resonates.

If anything, what Snyder threw together for MoS is a much extravagant version of Donner's take on Krypton. It was never needed to show anything other than how Zod became a villain, sending baby Kal to earth, and maybe a fight between a butt-kicking Scientist and a weak Kryptonian General. But cut out the long sequence of Krypton and I would agree with your sentiment. Snyder began Man of Steel the same route Donner did with his Superman movie... only difference with Snyder was that he had to make up for that lengthy sequence through speedy cuts with Drifter Clark and a fast moving plot.

 

[heatvision38]

i got u beat, i been reading for 31 years.
1987 mang. i'm a real fan.

bought the greatest batman stories ever told vol 1 in 1989 when the first burton movie released. that got various collected stories from 1939-1980s.

batman machine guns down some of hugo strange's thugs in a truck in one of the 1940 stories.

you can google it that panel up online.

also batman knocks a bad guy into a vat of acid in his first appearance. there's various examples where he almost blatantly kills bad guys (in the heat of battle of course - not premeditated - just as batfleck did).

I remember being in camp looking forward to the next day when Batman '89 came out (though we just called it Batman at the time). I was reading the comics as a kid and I remember not being thrilled with the movie because it was too different from the comics as by then, the Batman we see in the comics today had already been established (having since moved from the camp version). I could also argue that the Batman we have in the comics and cartoons today are a disservice to the comics of the past because we now have Batgod who apparently can beat anybody now and is no longer human, despite the foundation of the character being that is supposed to be human and that's what people relate to.

 

[chintai80]

I would argue he shows a great level of understanding of the character if such a character existed. The PTSD aspect of the character is often underplayed. The violence is often played off as, "Well, he's Batman, he gets the job done, he's still a hero." But the violence is rarely ever focused on as something that can be truly disturbing. These are all aspects of the character that I think Snyder got across in BvS and I personally loved it. It's not the only way to show us Batman, but's A way, and I loved it.

yes to all this. i feel exactly the same.
different directors just choose to emphasize different facets of the character.
i like all of them. i like the variety.

 

[heatvision38]

What I would give to see this cowl on the big screen, even some of the most hardcore bat fanboys don't want this. lol

As long as he's wearing gloves. He didn't originally wear gloves back in the day. Didn't have to worry about finger prints then.

 

[chintai80]

haha he did wear gloves. they were purple ones!

 

[chintai80]

I remember being in camp looking forward to the next day when Batman '89 came out (though we just called it Batman at the time). I was reading the comics as a kid and I remember not being thrilled with the movie because it was too different from the comics as by then, the Batman we see in the comics today had already been established (having since moved from the camp version). I could also argue that the Batman we have in the comics and cartoons today are a disservice to the comics of the past because we now have Batgod who apparently can beat anybody now and is no longer human, despite the foundation of the character being that is supposed to be human and that's what people relate to.

that's probably why i liked the daredevil netflix show so much. it's like the old school comic book batman - he is very human and gets beat up alot but still keeps on going.

 

[heatvision38]

Since I can't think of a single precedent in comics for the story told in BvS, I am at a loss as to what changes and lack of understanding of the character could have occurred. With your thirty years of comics knowledge, can you tell me what comics featured a Batman who was two decades into his vigilante crusade, had recently lost a Robin, and experienced a trauma in the form of the world's introduction to Superman through a violent "War of the Worlds" situation? How does you knowledge account for that context? Additionally, before Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, did Batman comics account for or otherwise explain his take on the character? How does Nolan's take reconcile with the Adam West version?

It's funny. I would argue that Miller's DKR's Batman is not the Batman I am familiar with. I don't even like that version of Batman, I mean the character itself. He just doesn't feel like Batman to me. But yet the book is beloved by many and I can accept that. Characters that are this old and have this many iterations can be very flexible and still retain enough elements of who they are that they are still of the same essence. Some think BvS Batman no longer retains that essence, others do. I say he still does, but was specifically at a very low point in his career as portrayed in a live action movie which will allow for even more creative freedom.

 

[heatvision38]

Indeed. So what it boils down to is whether those changes to established lore improve upon, or further the character in some positive way. Nothing Snyder has done has accomplished that. Quite the reverse. Hence my argument against his changes.

For you.

 

[heatvision38]

a batman who smashing chicks is probably more healthy and emotionally well-balanced than a celibate batman.
i would not want to be that thug that gets accosted by a batman who has not smashed any womens in a long time.
u dead if that batman finds you.

Lol.

 

[Da-Scribe]

a batman who smashing chicks is probably more healthy and emotionally well-balanced than a celibate batman.
i would not want to be that thug that gets accosted by a batman who has not smashed any womens in a long time.
u dead if that batman finds you.

Pure gold lmao.

 

[heatvision38]

haha he did wear gloves. they were purple ones!

There were issues where he didn't wear gloves.
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Batsuit (control+F gloves).

It does seem like some of these images have been altered. I have the reprints of the first bunch of issues and there are early issues where he has no gloves on.

 

[heatvision38]

that's probably why i liked the daredevil netflix show so much. it's like the old school comic book batman - he is very human and gets beat up alot but still keeps on going.

Yup. When I read 1970s-1980s Batman, I connect more with this character. This was before he was Batgod-ized. He could lose to Deathstroke, lose to Bane, get outsmarted or surprised now and again. But he would always come back and figure out a way to win in the end. I found that version more interesting.

I don't buy that the version of Batman we have now (which feels like pandering to Batgod fans or writers who love Batman so much that they aren't able to write him as being a human being) as being relatable whereas somehow Superman is not? "Batman is human, Superman is like a God." Except Batman is not written as human anymore, so where does that leave us?

 

[chintai80]

There were issues where he didn't wear gloves.
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Batsuit (control+F gloves).

It does seem like some of these images have been altered. I have the reprints of the first bunch of issues and there are early issues where he has no gloves on.

the original depiction of batman had purple gloves.
the no gloves as mentioned in your link is probably a coloring mistake!

let's hijack this zack snyder thread and debate if batman originally wore gloves or not.

i'm a member of CBFWG ( The Church of Batman First Wore Gloves ).

 

[chintai80]

Yup. When I read 1970s-1980s Batman, I connect more with this character. This was before he was Batgod-ized. He could lose to Deathstroke, lose to Bane, get outsmarted or surprised now and again. But he would always come back and figure out a way to win in the end. I found that version more interesting.

I don't buy that the version of Batman we have now (which feels like pandering to Batgod fans or writers who love Batman so much that they aren't able to write him as being a human being) as being relatable whereas somehow Superman is not? "Batman is human, Superman is like a God." Except Batman is not written as human anymore, so where does that leave us?

this is why the knightfall saga is so good.
batman is exhausted and at his lowest.

and going back to zack snyder's depiction - it is as u said and i feel the same - his version of batman - badass as he is, is very human.
he's tired and psychologically broken.

 

[heatvision38]

the original depiction of batman had purple gloves.
the no gloves as mentioned in your link is probably a coloring mistake!

let's hijack this zack snyder thread and debate if batman originally wore gloves or not.

i'm a member of CBFWG ( The Church of Batman First Wore Gloves ).

Should Superman have an S on the back of his cape? Should he wear red trunks? How big should the S emblem be on his chest? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[chintai80]

Should Superman have an S on the back of his cape? Should he wear red trunks? How big should the S emblem be on his chest? Inquiring minds want to know.

the s should be small and inside a small yellow shield!

and he wore blue boots, not red!

 

[heatvision38]

the s should be small and inside a small yellow shield!

and he wore blue boots, not red!

Not mah Superman.

 

[_Superman_]

the s should be small and inside a small yellow shield!

and he wore blue boots, not red!

Not mah Superman.

I guess that might be a lot of people's opinion since that Superman can't fly, doesn't have heat vision and kills without a care.