Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 6

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Per Snyder, Superman wasn't sad because he was forced to kill, he's sad because he lost his last link to Krypton.

I think it's all the above. It was a painful moment. He finally finds his people, they attack, he is forced to kill, and the person he is forced to kill is the last of his kind not counting himself, and this after all the many deaths that occurred in Metropolis.
 
Here's probably the most detailed discussion of the storytelling rationale for Superman killing Zod. Snyder and Goyer told The Empire Film Podcast:

Snyder: “In the original version of the script Zod just got zapped into the Phantom Zone. David [Goyer] and I had long talks about it, and Chris [Nolan] and I talked a lot about it. I was saying, ‘I really feel we should kill Zod and I feel that Superman should kill him.’ For me, the why of it was: if it’s truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained. It’s just in his DNA. I thought if we put him in an impossible situation, forced him into it, it would work. I felt like that could also make you go, ‘Okay, this is the why of him not killing ever again.’ He’s basically obliterated his entire people and his culture, and he is responsible for it and he is just like… ‘How could I kill ever again?’ Even though Zod says there’s no way this ends without it. ‘What are you going to do? Put me in jail? I don’t know what you’re going to do with me but I’m gonna just keep doing this until you stop me. I’m just a killing machine, especially now. I had a task before but you’ve robbed me of that too.’”

Goyer: “So yes, originally Zod got sucked into The Phantom Zone with the others but I just felt it was unsatisfying and so did Zack. So we started talking to some of the people at DC Comics and asked, ‘Do you think there is ever a way that Superman would kill someone?’ And at first they said, ‘No way.’ ‘But what if he didn’t have a choice…?’ Originally Chris didn’t even want to let us try to write it but Zack and I said, ‘We think we can figure out a way that you’ll buy it.’ So I came up with this idea of the heat vision and these people about to die and I wrote the scene and gave it to Chris… and he said, ‘Okay, you convinced me.’ I’ve seen the film about four times now and everyone always gasps when it happens – they don’t see it coming – and I think it makes some people feel uncomfortable, whereas other people say ‘Right on!’ but that was the point. Hopefully what we have done with the end of this film is we’ve got the the mainstream audience, not the geek audience, to question it all. Hopefully we’ve redefined Superman.”

Snyder: “I wanted to create a situation where Superman has gotta do what he’s gotta do or he is going to see these people get chopped in half. And I think Zod knows that. It’s almost like suicide in a way, it’s like death by cop. If Kal has the ability to kill him then that’s a noble way for him to die. It’s echoes the ‘A good death is its own reward’ concept in a movie, and if there were more adventures for Superman in the future, you now don’t know 100 percent what he’s gonna do. When you really put the concept that he won’t kill in stone and you really erase it as an option in the viewer’s mind, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a code.

“But again you’ll always have this thing in the back of your mind. This little thing of… ‘How far can you push him? If he sees Lois get hurt or he sees something like his mother get killed… you just made Superman really mad. A Superman that we know is capable of some really horrible stuff if he wants to do it. That’s the thing that’s cool about him I think, in some ways, the idea that he has the frailties of a human emotionally but you don’t wanna get that guy mad…”

I think it's pretty clear the filmmakers considered more than Superman's emotional response to the loss of one final link to Krypton when conceiving the scene.
 
I think ultimately Snyder's gut instincts when it comes to storytelling and what he as a fan wants out of a movie are completely at odds with the characters he's chosen. His approach might work for other DC characters, but not Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. Jenkins even did a soft reboot of WW because certain choices Snyder made didn't make sense with who the character is.

I can acknowledge all of the thought and effort he put into these films (I even loved MoS when it first came out, though my feelings have since changed), but he was the wrong guy to spearhead and create the DCEU. It doesn't help that the first film he directed was in no way supposed to be the start of a cinematic universe. But his main problem is he doesn't have the directorial skill to properly execute the ideas he wants to convey, and on top of that his ideas are just plain wrong for the characters he's using, especially as the foundation of an entire universe of movies. There was not enough thought put into these films past the current one they were working on.
 
I think ultimately Snyder's gut instincts when it comes to storytelling and what he as a fan wants out of a movie are completely at odds with the characters he's chosen. His approach might work for other DC characters, but not Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. Jenkins even did a soft reboot of WW because certain choices Snyder made didn't make sense with who the character is.

I can acknowledge all of the thought and effort he put into these films (I even loved MoS when it first came out, though my feelings have since changed), but he was the wrong guy to spearhead and create the DCEU. It doesn't help that the first film he directed was in no way supposed to be the start of a cinematic universe. But his main problem is he doesn't have the directorial skill to properly execute the ideas he wants to convey, and on top of that his ideas are just plain wrong for the characters he's using, especially as the foundation of an entire universe of movies. There was not enough thought put into these films past the current one they were working on.

I agree wholeheartedly but I think according to some people the part I put in bold does not exist.
 
I think you are being to narrow with your definitions of what these characters are.

Batman can be a happy brightly clad do-gooder and a dark vengeful terror.

Superman can a bold, brash agent of the working class or a polite, reserved maintainer of the establishment.

Wonder Woman can be a warrior charging into a war, or a diplomat preaching non-violence.

You might not like all of the versions of the character (there are certainly a number of interpretations I despise) but they exist, and are often just as valid as other interpretations.
 
I think you are being to narrow with your definitions of what these characters are.

Batman can be a happy brightly clad do-gooder and a dark vengeful terror.

Superman can a bold, brash agent of the working class or a polite, reserved maintainer of the establishment.

Wonder Woman can be a warrior charging into a war, or a diplomat preaching non-violence.

You might not like all of the versions of the character (there are certainly a number of interpretations I despise) but they exist, and are often just as valid as other interpretations.

Yes, but they often work as a balance and not as a character trait on their own.

Especially with Superman. Otherwise, it's not Superman. It's Marvel's Sentry, Ultraman, or some other superhero with those traits.

The film should allow for some accessibility. I think we all want a Superman film to be successful critically, financially, and popular.

I don't doubt that there's someone out there than can show a balanced Superman that we can enjoy aspects of in a story that's easy to watch over and over again. Snyder had the action down easily. But in other areas it needed work.
 
I think you are being to narrow with your definitions of what these characters are.

Batman can be a happy brightly clad do-gooder and a dark vengeful terror.

Superman can a bold, brash agent of the working class or a polite, reserved maintainer of the establishment.

Wonder Woman can be a warrior charging into a war, or a diplomat preaching non-violence.

You might not like all of the versions of the character (there are certainly a number of interpretations I despise) but they exist, and are often just as valid as other interpretations.

Exactly. And what's even more funny is that the Wonder Woman movie wouldnt have gone off the ground if it wasnt for Zack and Debbie who championed for it. They designed and created this Wonder Woman for the modern times, and hired Patty for the project. Then they worked together on the movie. Just like Zack and Chris did on MOS. Zack worked on the story and they produced it, and worked closely to have a story and journey that runs through WW-BvS-JL. It was obviously Patty's movie, and 100% her credit, but to imply that they somehow went behind each other's back, doesnt make sense, because they collaborated together for the character. Its creating divides when there are none. Zack is even a producer on WW2.

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Wan had similar things to say about Zack and Aquaman as well :

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I'm open to changes and risky artistic decisions. The execution of this will determine my satisfaction with those choices. Ultimately I believe there should be broad parameters. Big enough to give the storyteller plenty of room for the story they want to tell and how they want to tell it. But still having basic parameters to be used as guide posts to stay on track.
 
I hope that other directors continue to have some sort of collaboration between them when making a movie with characters that may appear in each other's movies, just like how Zack collaborated with Patty and Wan.

For instance, I hope that Matt Reeves talks with Gavin Hood, who will film Suicide Squad 2.
 
You know what's funny, just for ****s and giggles, I went to the User Review Thread and read through the initial few pages worth of reactions from everyone and it seemed unanimously very positive. A lot of us, myself included, were saying "the film is a lot of fun, the characters are great, Superman rocks, but Steppenwolf's kind of whatever and the CGI is spotty." That seemed to be consensus and people seemed happy...it wasn't until I would say a week after release that I think a lot of us seemed to start having serious second thoughts about the movie and now the consensus amongst most of us is that its the most embarrassing DC movie they've made thus far. lol

I dunno, its a weird effect this movie has brought out in the fans or maybe we just don't know what we want. :oldrazz:


I think I've figured it out.
During the marketing, I remember thinking how the trailers looked like they were straight up live action versions of the Bruce Timm Justice League cartoons.
I remember thinking that was the BEST outcome I could possibly hope for!
And for my sins . . .

Basically, they DID sort of re-create the JL cartoon in "live" action, but only in some of the most superficial ways possible.
This is what makes it so deceptive.

It's like the SHELL of ALMOST everything we wanted, but it's an empty shell without ANY of the depth of the cartoon, and even less of the depth and story they set up going in.

So while they made a lot of it LOOK and feel like what we wanted, and TOLD us it would followup on what they set up, they gave us something ultimately very empty.
 
Zack won an award to for his role in crafting the Wonder Woman story right?
 
I think I've figured it out.
During the marketing, I remember thinking how the trailers looked like they were straight up live action versions of the Bruce Timm Justice League cartoons.
I remember thinking that was the BEST outcome I could possibly hope for!
And for my sins . . .

Basically, they DID sort of re-create the JL cartoon in "live" action, but only in some of the most superficial ways possible.
This is what makes it so deceptive.

It's like the SHELL of ALMOST everything we wanted, but it's an empty shell without ANY of the depth of the cartoon, and even less of the depth and story they set up going in.

So while they made a lot of it LOOK and feel like what we wanted, and TOLD us it would followup on what they set up, they gave us something ultimately very empty.

Lmao yeah. My reaction when I came out was that it was my favourite CBM, because it really DID feel like a JL animated episode/film. :funny: That sounds asinine now, but I can't deny how the film made me feel when I was watching it lol. I just pushed aside all the production troubles and worries and my mouth was agape from the moment the Batman/Parademon scene happened. I really enjoyed the movie and there definitely many geek-out moments. The "Superman-Flash" moment, for example. And the shirt rip. I loved it tbh. (aside from Elfman's ****** ass score)

It's just that the more I thought about it, the angrier I became. :funny:.
 
I’m not side stepping anything. I’m just saying that Snyder moves Batman too far away from his intrinsic elements, which is of detriment to the character. I know you’ll argue against that, and neither of us will change our minds, so let’s save us both lots of typing time, eh?

Let's be honest here, Snyder's take on Batman moved a hell of a lot less from the "intrinsic elements" than Burton's did.

I don't know what your contentions are with Snyder's Batman, but I have issues with cinematic Batmen killing. But, literally EVERY one of them HAS killed except Clooney.
So, as such, as much as I will maintain such change is NOT necessary, and IS a DEEP contradiction of the character, I also recognize the idiocy of ONLY holding Snyder's feet to the fire over it. In fact, I also recognize that it bothers me MORE with Snyder's BECAUSE in nearly every other way he is the CLOSEST we've ever seen to his paperback counterpart.

Now, I don't know which "intrinsic elements" are your sticking points, but if you don't equally cast aside ALL the other cinematic interpretations over such straying, you are simply not being intellectually honest with yourself.

Why bring up all the other cinematic Batmen? Why do they matter if we're talking about SNYDER'S Batman? Because we're ONLY harping on Snyder's Batman, for reasons that are NOT unique to him.
If they are NOT unique to this Batman, then you're problem is NOT with THIS Batman. That means that your issue is NOT with Snyder's BATMAN, but with Snyder himself.
 
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I am happy that we got many scenes of Clark with his Mom, thanks to Snyder, starting from MoS, BvS to JL, no other Superman movie was able to film as many scenes with them.
 
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Snyder answering fans' question about Supes killing Zod, 1:56, spot on.

I actually did not mind the moment in the film, but I HATE listening to Snyder's justifications on this.

The only thing he said that WAS accurate was that Superman has killed Zod in the comics.

However, Superman is generally NOT "practical hero," and his 'no kill' rule IS explicit in the comics. Snyder states the exact opposite in this clip. The comics have put him in exactly the position he describes, of a planet of millions, billions of lives being threatened, and Superman being able to stop it by killing one person, and he does NOT break his rule.

He stands by it, and even doubles down on it's importance. AND he figures out another way.

As for MOS, why I'm OK with him killing Zod, is because he ISN'T Superman yet. I don't mean he hasn't necessarily "developed his aversion to killing" (no one only figures out killing is wrong in their 30's,) I mean he's not had the experience to "find another way."

So, while you can say that 'your Superman' wouldn't have let that happen, he would have found another way, that's actually the point: This ISN'T your Superman, YET. He literally threw his first punch the same day, he doesn't have the experience or knowledge to "find another way" yet.

THAT is the part that he still needs to develop. That is the ONLY reason they are able to write him into this corner, becaus ethe entire POINT is that he's NOT that Superman YET. This is Superman BEGINS.

But to claim he doesn't have a "no kill" rule in the comics, that he's far more pragmatic/practical a hero than to avoid killing, that's just ignorant, or lying.
 
Yes well, you should tell Snyder about this it seems. One of my main issues with Snyders DCEU, fans explaining his movie to him.

Funny thing is if he were to read this he would probably confirm that your take on it is right as well. -_-

Probably. When Zack was announced to helm Man of Steel, I dug very deep in following every story and video of Zack explaining the why and how's of his style of film making. There was great content from the MoS press tours with Zack letting us in on the way he articulate's and crafts his films.

I remember coming across one where he said no matter how his films are received, good or bad, he initially wants people and audience's to dissect the meaning of what he was trying to say in a scene. He said he wants people to walk out and say "Hey, what did you think of this? I think it's this.." but the other person says "no, no this is what it meant.." so in a lot of ways, with fans STILL breaking down his DCEU films to this day has left that mark.

Zack is an interesting person for sure. He has a lot to offer regardless of the reception of what his films may say otherwise.
 
Superman may have lost a living link, but not THEE link. The Codex represents the biological brainwaves and the genetic code to the entire civilization. This literally lives within' Kal.

In MoS, Superman was mentally prepared to face the fears of difficult choices, even when it pertained to Krypton. "KRYPTON HAD ITS CHANCE!' That line was a huge indicator for what was to come.

Except that is purely symbolic at that point, as the Codex became useless after the Ship was destroyed. So, having the Codex in his DNA is no more significant than simply having Kryptonian DNA. Both provide just as much connection to his heritage. Actually, his Kryptonian DNA is MORE of a connection as it actually affects him.

What does "being prepared" mean in this case? Being prepared to carry out an action is a separate matter from the emotional consequences and fallout.
 
Probably. When Zack was announced to helm Man of Steel, I dug very deep in following every story and video of Zack explaining the why and how's of his style of film making. There was great content from the MoS press tours with Zack letting us in on the way he articulate's and crafts his films.

I remember coming across one where he said no matter how his films are received, good or bad, he initially wants people and audience's to dissect the meaning of what he was trying to say in a scene. He said he wants people to walk out and say "Hey, what did you think of this? I think it's this.." but the other person says "no, no this is what it meant.." so in a lot of ways, with fans STILL breaking down his DCEU films to this day has left that mark.

Zack is an interesting person for sure. He has a lot to offer regardless of the reception of what his films may say otherwise.

But that's any movie good and bad. People still talk about the films they watch in this way regardless of the director being intentional in doing so or not. It just goes with the territory.
 
But that's any movie good and bad. People still talk about the films they watch in this way regardless of being intentional in doing so or not.

There's a difference between people talking after a movie, like they would any movie, and a film intended to provoke discussion, and particularly the discussions being had.

Everyone will talk about a movie after watching it, but NOT every film results in discussing the intent and meaning.

That difference is explicitly what we're talking about here.

As much as I LOVED Civil War, and enjoyed talking about it, there was NEVER a discussion of themes, intentions, and meaning.
There also just wasn't anything left to SAY about it after the first couple months. In fact, the ONLY discussion Civil War still prompts is how it sets up upcoming films, or how plot holes it creates in the timeline, etc.

That obviously wasn't meant to be a DC vs Marvel thing, as you can look to most ANY successful mass appeal blockbuster. The point is there's a world of difference between how people talk after any film, and a film intended to be thought provoking.

Lastly, obviously thought provoking doesn't necessarily mean good either.
 
There's a difference between people talking after a movie, like they would any movie, and a film intended to provoke discussion, and particularly the discussions being had.

Everyone will talk about a movie after watching it, but NOT every film results in discussing the intent and meaning.

That difference is explicitly what we're talking about here.

As much as I LOVED Civil War, and enjoyed talking about it, there was NEVER a discussion of themes, intentions, and meaning.
There also just wasn't anything left to SAY about it after the first couple months. In fact, the ONLY discussion Civil War still prompts is how it sets up upcoming films, or how plot holes it creates in the timeline, etc.

That obviously wasn't meant to be a DC vs Marvel thing, as you can look to most ANY successful mass appeal blockbuster. The point is there's a world of difference between how people talk after any film, and a film intended to be thought provoking.

Lastly, obviously thought provoking doesn't necessarily mean good either.

Right. But what I'm saying that if you look at a fandom like Star Wars... it doesn't matter what they put out, there's always going to be those that will argue the merits of their favorite films. While endlessly debating on things much in a similar way to DCEU films. I'm not sure if Rian Johnson ever meant to make his star wars as thought provoking as it has.

It's fine if you point at Marvel too, as I agree with you, not much to talk about as their stories are much more linear and not as thought provoking.

And that's also not saying that any DC films were free from plot holes either. I have yet to see a movie wrapped neatly in its own box.
 
A movie should be thought provoking and it should provoke some discussions, not going to get into Marvel Vs DC debates as it applies to all movies.
 
Zod bless yo all for still having the energy to talk about the same things over and over. I could not do it. lol
 
mos and bvs will be debated about until the end of days.

add that to the other two sure things in life: death and taxes.
 
A movie should be thought provoking and it should provoke some discussions, not going to get into Marvel Vs DC debates as it applies to all movies.

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Relevant quote from another one of my favs, Alex Garland.
 
I don't know what your contentions are with Snyder's Batman, but I have issues with cinematic Batmen killing. But, literally EVERY one of them HAS killed except Clooney.

So, as such, as much as I will maintain such change is NOT necessary, and IS a DEEP contradiction of the character, I also recognize the idiocy of ONLY holding Snyder's feet to the fire over it. In fact, I also recognize that it bothers me MORE with Snyder's BECAUSE in nearly every other way he is the CLOSEST we've ever seen to his paperback counterpart.

What makes Snyder's approach to Batman killing work for me, and in a way that's superior to those other takes, is that his film understands that the killing is problematic. In that way, I don't feel I am being lied to or tricked as an audience member, and I also feel like Snyder and I are on the same page about what Batman should be or always be striving to be despite stumbles along the way.

Except that is purely symbolic at that point, as the Codex became useless after the Ship was destroyed. So, having the Codex in his DNA is no more significant than simply having Kryptonian DNA. Both provide just as much connection to his heritage. Actually, his Kryptonian DNA is MORE of a connection as it actually affects him.

Given Snyder's flair for the symbolic, I suspect that you're right that ultimately his take on the kill and how it relates to Krypton's survival rests heavily on its symbolism. If you track Clark's feelings about his home world, he starts as a teen being first unaware and then anxious about it. As a young adult, he becomes more interested in it, seeking information about it out and showing joy both with Jor-El's hologram and with his mother when he finally learns the truth. Zod's introduction complicates things, especially since Jor-El has explained to him Zod's crimes on Krypton and his role in his death. During Clark's contemplative conversation with Father Leone in the church, he confesses that he isn't sure if he can trust Zod or humanity. He takes a chance on both by turning himself in. What happens on the ship changes everything. In fact, when Clark is back on Earth and speaks to Martha following Zod's attack, they speak about Zod's plans. Clark says to Martha, "Mom, Zod said this Codex he's looking for can bring my people back." Martha asks, "Isn't that a good thing?" to which Clark responds, "I don't think they're interested in sharing this world."

The subsequent confrontation between Jor-El's hologram and Zod adds a further layer to this aspect of the story.

Jor-El: Our people can co-exist.
Zod: So we can suffer through years of pain trying to adapt like your son has?
Jor-El: You're talking about genocide.
Zod: Yes. And I'm arguing its merits with a ghost.
Jor-El: We're both ghosts, Zod. Can't you see that? The Krypton you're clinging onto is gone.


Krypton is itself symbolic. It represents a corrupted past, and part of what led to its destruction was the refusal of the council to act. Jor-El's interest in the survival of Krypton is centered on a fresh start. He and Lara conceive Kal in defiance of Krypton's policies, and Jor-El steals the Codex in order to facilitate this new beginning free from the corruption of what Krypton had become. While Jor-El wants to reintroduce free will, Zod wants to double down on the eugenics. As Jor-El says, "This is a second chance for all of Krypton, not just the bloodlines you deem worthy." Despite their disagreement, Zod and Jor-El both are aligned in rejecting the dithering of the council, their "endless debates" instead of action. Zod's last words before he goes to the Phantom Zone are a rebuke of Krypton's leaders, "You won't kill us yourself! You wouldn't sully your hands! But you'll damn us to a black hole for eternity! Jor-El was right. You're a pack of fools, every last one of you."

Returning to the issue of killing, the moment that is about ending the "old" Krypton the most takes place on the ship prior to Zod's death. Zod screams, "If you destroy this ship, you destroy Krypton!" to which Superman replies, "Krypton had its chance!" He doesn't say this with sadness and never reacts with sadness about it even later, and part of the reason for that is that the Krypton it represented was one that would use genesis chambers to birth only worthy bloodlines and would require the deaths of the humans Zod deems unworthy. When Superman enacted the destruction of the empty genesis chambers and the plan to use his baby ship to create the singularity that would send the Kryptonians away, he hoped Zod would go with them into a less fatal future. Zod didn't remain later because Superman had spared him the fate of the rest of his soldiers; he was fine with his links to Krypton, including Zod, being eliminated with the singularity plan.

So, when Superman ultimately has to kill Zod, it not only has echoes of the issues Zod and Jor-El had with the council, but it also represents the final death of old Krypton that Zod symbolized. He was suicidal and corrupted, just like Krypton had been, and Superman could have dithered about making a decision or have refused to sully his own hands out of fear of taking action, thus metatextually and metaphorically being beholden to a code (the no kill code) just as the Kryptonian council members' incompetence and bureaucratic impotence were a product of their imposed genetic code, but he doesn't. In choosing to act, he replicates Jor-El's own actions on Krypton. I think that's part of why Superman's so upset after the act. Having that kind of responsibility over life and death when whole worlds or cultures are at stake is a heavy burden to bear.

I also think what Snyder means by this moment informing or inspiring the no kill code in Superman has more to do with the mythology of Superman and the larger stakes of his heroic mission. With Batman, people trace his aversion to guns and killing to his parents' 'murder. With Superman, people had no such thing. I think the situation made Superman realize that he is capable of killing when there are no other options and innocent lives are at stake, and so the way it inspires his no-kill code is not only to make him more conscious of and more dedicated to proactive measures to prevent such no-win scenarios, but also to make him appreciate just how high the stakes have to be for him to justify it.

I am happy that we got many scenes of Clark with his Mom, thanks to Snyder, starting from MoS, BvS to JL, no other Superman movie was able to film as many scenes with them.

It's one of my favorite things about these movies. The only thing that would make me happier is more of Lara.
 
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