Zendaya IS MJ

Discussion in 'Spider-Man: Far From Home' started by Scarlet Spider, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. MaceB

    MaceB Registered

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    It'd be cool if she said the "you just hit the jackpot, tiger" line ONCE.... and then no more tiger talk.

    As for her being a red head... I don't know why it matters, and I think she'd probably look best a brunette...but whatever... if fans would feel better about it that way, then fine.
     
  2. GuestStar2004

    GuestStar2004 Registered

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    Yeah i don't think they will make her a red head. i think to do that it would be like trying to correct a mistake and i don't think they feel casting Zendaya was a mistake.
     
  3. Marvel united

    Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    I too am not a fan of the Michelle character. I wish they would have her reveal her name is Mary Jane Watson and become more like comic MJ
     
  4. UltimateWebhead

    UltimateWebhead Black's the new Red&Blue

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    There's so much to respond to in your post. I'm gonna need some time to type up a proper reply. Standby...might not be today but I will reply.
     
  5. MaceB

    MaceB Registered

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    Cool, thanks! Just an expansion of my point. I understand and know that Mary Jane has a long history in the Spiderman comics. I hope your response isn't something like, "Oh, you don't understand.... she never wanted to settle down and had family problems. It wasn't working with Peter, so she left him and was about to get married, but then.....etc. "

    I understand that Mary Jane is a developed character with her own motivations and her own plot lines . I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know why her and Peter are that compatible; it's always felt forced to me.

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-3338147
     
    #80 MaceB, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  6. NinjaTurtleFan

    NinjaTurtleFan Turtle Power!

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    Kill the character off. Not a fan of Michelle/faux MJ.
     
  7. ironwez20

    ironwez20 Registered

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    Mary Jane put on a party girl persona to hide the fact that her mom was being beaten by her dad. In reality she felt sad inside but everyone else saw her as happy go lucky so she wanted to be seen as that. She always knew peter was Spider-Man but put on a facade and faked it. She’s a good actress and that what she strives to be. She has many interpretations but the 616 MJ is known for her behavior because she hides the sadness she feels from running away from her sister and mother because she couldn’t take living in such an abusive situation. Her party girl personality is nothing but a mask. She says tiger cause that’s what she’s been saying all her life and just sorta rolled with it. This is kinda the short version.

    She got along with all of peters friends and never thought she was to good for peter. She thought peter was to good for her. She saw herself as a disappointment because of the abuse she endured

    Also she’s the ying to his yang. While peter puts on the mask of spider man to gain confidence. Mary Jane puts on the mask of mj to gain confidence. The difference is in the real world she is the party girl while peter is the loner. Opposites attract
     
    #82 ironwez20, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  8. ironwez20

    ironwez20 Registered

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    Wow I hope not :csad:
     
  9. Marvel united

    Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    Ultimate Goblin is already confirmed for the Miles spinoff
     
  10. MaceB

    MaceB Registered

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    Hmm, interesting. I like the comparison between Peter's mask and her own. I appreciate that she has a rich back story. I'm not sure if that's enough for me, but I appreciate that angle
    And at least early on, she did not want to be tied down. Peter proposed to her, but she left... twice apparently. And their marriage wasn't exactly perfect, often because she doesn't want Peter to be Spiderman.

    She's a nice girl, but she's a supermodel with abuse issues, who never wanted to be tied down; meanwhile, Peter is a studious nerd. All I'm saying is that this new version seems more than capable of taking on the paton. She may not have all the same dynamics, but at first glance, she seems way more compatible with this Peter than the typical Mary Jane would be.
     
    #85 MaceB, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  11. sl500jazz

    sl500jazz chasin' the blues away

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    Worked on this before ironwez replied, but thought I'd add my 2 cents.

    IMO designing a love interest that is superficially compatible (ie: is a nerd just like Peter, loves science just like Peter, etc.) Is the very definition of a "forced" relationship. Mary Jane wasnt designed to be "the love interest", she evolved into that role over the course of decades as a result of her popularity. As such, classic MJ tends to function more independently than a typical love interest would.

    (When written in character) Their relationship tends to function as "opposites attract" whereby each admires qualities in the other that he/she does not possess (in some ways symbocially represented by the complementary relationship between an actress/model and a photographer). Peter can be brooding/neurotic at times. It's Mary Jane's levity and spontaneity that pulls Peter out of that anxiety. At the same time, Peter serves to ground Mary Jane who ,when stressed, looks to escape by indulging herself. That's why Mary Jane is Peter's ultimate partner; They balance each other out. Unlike most comic book romances, the relationship isn't one sided. Peter develops Mary Jane's character, just as much as she develops his.

    The emotional "common ground" between the two lies within their parallel courses of development. Both Peter and Mary Jane's central character arcs involve learning responsibility (the main thematic element of the Spider-man mythology): Peter with the death of Uncle Ben and MJ with the death of Gwen Stacy. Additionally, both characters operate behind a "mask"; hiding part of who they are from the people in their lives. Their relationship marks the first time that either is able to be fully honest/vulnerable and be accepted and loved for the totality of who they are.

    Unfortunately, there are quite a few people (including some of the writers themselves) that don't understand this, which is how we end up with so many MJ-INOs in film, television, video games, alternate universes, etc. Because Peter is a nice guy and should end up with nice girl next door ala Raimi MJ (robbing the characters of the complementary dynamic that made them work as a couple). Or because MJ is too sexualized and we need to make her less sexy and change her occupation to reflect something that's more feminist and empowered ( conflating the objectification of women with MJ's empowered sense of sexuality...and you know because actresses/models are just bimbos riding on their looks). Or because MJ and Peter should have more in common (robbing MJ of the personality that made her popular in the first place). This is how we've ended up with so many bland generic softcore Lois Lane versions of the character.

    I'm all for the writers having their own vision for these characters, but MJ worked her way up from a minor role for a reason. I'd understand if we'd already had a spot-on portrayal, and they wanted novelty. But we haven't. As the saying goes "If it ain't broke, dont fix it".
     
    #86 sl500jazz, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  12. legendkillin

    legendkillin Registered

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    I got that sense in the first film. She will have the ugly duckling/ buddy feel but say a love triangle happens she will change her look for a bit.
     
  13. MaceB

    MaceB Registered

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    Good post sl500jazz! I don't share your appreciation for the character, but I think you did a good job of explaining how their dynamic works. I'm satisfied with that.

    I still don't mind losing that Mary Jane character personally, but I can see why you would. The opposites attract angle could be really good for Peter. We'll just have to be open to another path I guess... and I think.. if you're open... you might find it an improvement.

    I think this new MJ can also wear a mask.. just a more neurotic/loner one. And she too could learn to grow up next to Peter. And we might even see her grow into a more outgoing personality like Mary Jane's in the sequel.. now that she's accepted the fact that she wants friends. Heck, she may even want to become an actress and dye her hair... if those kinds of similarities are make-or-break for you.
     
    #88 MaceB, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  14. UltimateWebhead

    UltimateWebhead Black's the new Red&Blue

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    Well, both Iron and sl500 beat me to the punch however I said I would reply so I'll chip in my 2 cents too. I agree with everything both those guys said especially sl500's masterful post. If anyone's an expert on MJ it's sl500. I'm still learning about MJ since she's not really even my favorite supporting character however I recognize her greatness.

    Anyway, I think Michelle could possibly become a good love interest for Peter however I don't like how they included that 'MJ' line at the end of Homecoming. If there's anything that felt forced, that was definitely it. They should have just called her Michelle and have her be a new character instead of trying to make some connection to Mary Jane. There's this belief that seems to be occurring with Peter and those that are either writing the comics or movies that his love interest needs to be someone that is like a mirror of his character.

    With that said, Peter and MJ are rich, dynamic and interesting characters. This is not normally something you see in fiction. Normally the protagonist has a lot of decent characterization. But rarely is it that the love interest has anything beyond just being the love interest. She or he doesn't seem to have a life outside of being the source of the hero's affections. Just think back to the early days of classic Marvel- Betty Brant had no family outside of her estranged brother. Jane Foster existed solely to be lusted over by Thor. Same with Karen Page. Gwen Stacy was unique in that she did have a father figure associated with Peter, but that was more about adding complications to Peter's life rather than Gwen getting more development. These love interests seemed to just be birthed into the world, fully formed with no history for them save for their relationship with the protagonist. And it's even something that love interests nowadays suffer from. Carlie Cooper, Anna Marie Marconi, Michelle Gonzales- none of these love interests seemed to have a life outside of Peter. No friends. No family. No history to speak of. They are just there, and are supposed to be awesome.

    That's why MJ was such a breathe of fresh air. MJ had history. She had wants. She had needs. She had goals. And she had flaws. Unlike other love interests, again even those that are created today, most love interests aren't given flaws to overcome. They just are perfect right from the get go. Hence the drama is about the hero putting aside their problems and treating their relationship with the particular love interest as the end goal, rather than simply another relationship in their life. But MJ wasn't perfect. Attractive, yes. But perfect? No. MJ had to grow and evolve as a character, and that sort of character growth is compelling. Because MJ wasn't written to be perfect, she was allowed to be more of a character and less of an ideal. That's why her relationship with Peter is so appealing. It's two well formed characters bouncing off one another and writing most of the story themselves.
     
  15. MaceB

    MaceB Registered

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    Sweet, thanks UltimateWebHead... your post and others have really helped me to understand the breath of Mary Jane's character.

    It feels like a lot of folks are angry that not only did they replace MJ's character, but they also had the chutzpah to name that new character MJ when they didn't need to. I respect that. It's got to be insulting to have a great character you care about, erased so nonchalantly.

    I still really like this new character, but I'm now on the fence about how I feel about her being called MJ. Clearly Mary Jane is a strong character with a strong history... and the way in which she puts on a public persona does serve as a good foil to Peter. Maybe they'll be able to incorporate that aspect into this new MJ. In my personal opinion, I don't think it'd be a good idea to merge her identity with the traditional MJ though... not in my opinion. It'll be interesting to see where they go with her.

    I will say this... it seems clear that Mary Jane does have an interesting story that connects with Peter. Maybe Marvel changed the character because it's against their formula to spend a large amount of time developing a side character, in the way she would need. Usually, the Marvel supporting characters are just that... supporting characters. Maybe Marvel thought that in order to do Mary Jane justice, they'd have to dedicate some serious story time to her, and they weren't willing to do that.
     
  16. UltimateWebhead

    UltimateWebhead Black's the new Red&Blue

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    You're welcome. I'm always happy to help.

    I'm not sure it's a Marvel thing specifically but more a movie thing. The benefit of comics and TV shows as well, is that they can approach the story telling from a serialized format and take the necessary time to develop certain characters. MJ's been in the Spidey books for a long time--her development has occurred over decades. And for movies, for the most part, it's not a serialized approach even with a continuation of characters and plots--most story elements are neatly wrapped up in about 2 hours with some threads carrying over to the next film, often with time jumps, etc. And with such a small amount of time on the screen that makes drawing out a more detailed development of a supporting character a difficult thing to do. So, for the sake of time and convenience you get characters introduced that only go through whatever development is necessary to move the story along. See MJ's characterization in the Raimi films as a prime example. MJ ended up having a few of her comic traits but was more an amalgamation of several of the women from the Spider-Man comics--Gwen and Liz Allen, mostly. IMO, this was done just for the convenience of making a movie and needing to have one specific love interest. I'm not trying to be critical of the process however that's what was done and what you get is a character named Mary Jane but she's not at all accurate to 616.

    All that said, I still don't understand why they keep shying away from presenting a solid, comic accurate portrayal of MJ in the movies. Especially now that Marvel is making movies that have more on-going threads and connections should or could allow for better development of even the supporting characters...imo of course. But I also think it goes back to what I was saying earlier, for some reason the current crop of writers for movies and even the comics seem to have this notion that the 'perfect' love interest for Peter is one that mirrors his character, i.e. is book smart, into science, is withdrawn or introverted, has other similar interests, etc. MJ is definitely in the 'opposites attract' dynamic and imo with her specifically and how they help develop one another, she is by far the most perfect foil to Peter. I don't think another love interest could come along and supplant her.
     
  17. Limonade

    Limonade Registered

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    I say in time, Mary Jane should show up. I know that the first four years of Spider-man's appearance she was simply mentioned and teased. Until she showed up in Amazing Spider-man #15, that is.

    But as this particular story arc plays out in the current MCU format, I don't expect to see her until a third movie. It's just... he's a kid. And to me, a true depiction of MJ is very much a college-type girl with strong liberal views and who loves the lime-light. And I love that all she has to do is call him a 'square' to really get to Pete.

    I just don't think having her at all in the story early would at all benefit her character... unless they completely re-write her character as was done in the latest cartoons.

    Honestly, I feel Pete should date around and not commit just yet... because once MJ shows up... that's it... he's hooked and doesn't look at anyone else the same again.
     
  18. random_havoc

    random_havoc The Golden Guardian

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    Absolutely. Worst decision they made for Homecoming.
    Either do MJ or don't. It's shocking to me that Marvel Studios would so completely do a character wrong. It's more off than Leto's Joker was. It's not just that she doesn't look like MJ or has the wrong name, it's that MJ is a party girl who's energetic and outgoing and Michelle is the exact opposite of that. It's like if they'd introduced Thanos as a friendly doctor character. Blows my mind how far off it is.
     
  19. Limonade

    Limonade Registered

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    Yeah, I agree. And it's not like I don't get what they're doing.

    There have been plenty of examples of introverts in high school suddenly breaking out of their shells and becoming models or surprising people by being so beautiful.

    It's an ugly duckling thing... and I get that... but unless Michelle is a red-herring... I can see how this story-line will play out a mile away. And it's a bit dissatisfying, when they can of course be true to her character.

    It's the sad part of knowing what made MJ so special in the comics, but then it being subverted to fit a narrative of a movie that really feels unnecessary.
     
  20. GwensNeckBrace

    GwensNeckBrace Registered

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    There's no way Michelle is a red herring, sadly. Marvel would get a ton of unnecessary backlash if they backtracked from this MJ.
     
  21. MasterCat

    MasterCat Registered

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    OK, I'll deal with it by not paying to see the movie in a theater. By watching it at home, i can fast forward past Michelle's appearances.
     
  22. Zant

    Zant Registered

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    Seems like they have already started to backtrack. I hope they stay the course and not get cold feet.

    Marvel can get away with anything at this point, either way.
     
  23. Broseph44

    Broseph44 Witness Me

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    Agree with you guys. She was one of my negatives for the film the first time around. Just completely unecessary. Not a fan.
     
  24. Speed Force

    Speed Force Goober

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    "Why are you guys at this lame party?"

    Uhh...you're here too
     
  25. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    I didn't hate her in the movie. But, I also didn't love her. She just had a very small role in the movie. I would like to see what they can do with her in a more expanded role, though. She will never be classic MJ, true. But I am more than willing to give the character a chance when she has an actual, you know, role.
     

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