🇮🇶 Discussion: Iraq II - Part 2

[Thundercrack85]

Well, apparently they now want to sack Rome Barbarian style. So there's that.

Or perhaps Vandal style would be more appropriate given their location.

 

[regwec]

That don't know their history. Rome had long been relegated to a second rate metropolis by the time Mohammed started hearing voices.

 

[PacificBoy]

Well, apparently they now want to sack Rome Barbarian style. So there's that.

Or perhaps Vandal style would be more appropriate given their location.

It wasn't so much what they said but how they said it with the beheading of the 21 Christians. At least the Egyptians are riled up enough to join the Jordanians in their against them.

And the video was astonishingly up on YouTube for quite a while on an Arabic account.

 

[regwec]

Rumour has it they have burned to death another 45 people.

 

[Victarion]

I know it is probably what they'd want, but the more I hear of this, the more I support an upswing in airstrikes against ISIS.

 

[Kelly]

Rumour has it they have burned to death another 45 people.

Yes, I think most were Iraqi pilots.

 

[PacificBoy]

I know it is probably what they'd want, but the more I hear of this, the more I support an upswing in airstrikes against ISIS.

Increasing airstrikes would necessitate sending a sizable support of ground troops too I think. Do Americans want (more) boots on the ground over there? A recent CNN poll says the numbers who do have gone up.

 

[Kelly]

Increasing airstrikes would necessitate sending a sizable support of ground troops too I think. Do Americans want (more) boots on the ground over there? A recent CNN poll says the numbers who do have gone up.

Do we "want" to put more boots on the ground? no...

Do many understand that to do this quickly, we "need" to put boots on the ground? yes...

But the administration does not want to do that, hence not calling those beheaded recently (the 21), Christians....the President simply called them Egyptian citizens. I think he probably believes that by using the word "Christians" would lead him into having to do more.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, we've been pretending for fourteen years that this isn't a religious conflict, so why stop now?

 

[Smashlilman]

Do we "want" to put more boots on the ground? no...

Do many understand that to do this quickly, we "need" to put boots on the ground? yes...

But the administration does not want to do that, hence not calling those beheaded recently (the 21), Christians....the President simply called them Egyptian citizens. I think he probably believes that by using the word "Christians" would lead him into having to do more.

Or turn it into a war between Christians and the Islamic state which would benefit ISIS in the long run. Right now you can be an Islamic Fundamentalist and be against ISIS. If Western countries with Christian populations react differently against ISIS in responds Christians being killed it will lead to Muslims think that we don't care about Muslims being killed and only care about the Christians. That would turn it into a Christian assault on a Muslim population.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Or turn it into a war between Christians and the Islamic state which would benefit ISIS in the long run.

Good point.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't know that it would. Christians are on the verge of extinction in the Middle East. God forbid someone shine a light on their plight (no pun intended).

Even where they aren't being cleansed, Christians are widely persecuted in Muslim countries. In Saudi Arabia even having a Bible is a capital offense. Let's talk about that sometime.

Personally I would like nothing more than a religious war with ISIS. Go Old Testament on their asses, and crucify each and every one of them, and salt the Earth of the **** holes they crawled out of.

 

[PacificBoy]

I think as Smashlilman says, it isn't about the Christians really but the possible perception that it's Christians vs Muslims playing into ISIS' hands.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So ISIS just launched a major assault on a Kurdish town recently.

Can someone explain why America is slow to help the Kurds.

Give them independence, put a damn Army base there and protect their boarders.

It's tragic that they're the only people in Iraq willing to fight ISIS and America practically ignores them.

The need help immediately.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I suspect the main reason is Turkey, which is a strategic partner of the United States.

The Kurds and Turks have been going at it in Southern Turkey since the 80's. It doesn't get much coverage, but that conflict is still ongoing.

The Turks know that the moment ISIS gets kicked out, the Kurds will focus on creating a larger independent state.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Also worth pointing out that the Kurds are mainly interested in well, the Kurds.

So, arming them is great for the Kurds, but it doesn't really solve the bigger issue, keeping the Iraqi state from collapsing.

Now the Kurds have been helping non-Kurds fleeing ISIS, but they're not going to retake the Iraqi and Syrian territory that has been taken and isn't part of Kurdistan, except maybe to make a buffer zone.

Also, if Iraqi Kurdistan breaks away; something which probably will happen (it's already fully autonomous for all intents and purposes) Iraq will be reduced to a rump state, which may just collapse altogether.

 

[regwec]

Kurdistan is the only polity in the region with the spine and the ability to challenge ISIS. That is reason enough to support it, and any misgivings about the Kurds' altruism in their will to survive are irrelevant.

 

[Destructus86]

Well, most of their success comes from robbing other people.

And apparently harvesting and selling organs too. gah!

 

[Kelly]

Or turn it into a war between Christians and the Islamic state which would benefit ISIS in the long run. Right now you can be an Islamic Fundamentalist and be against ISIS. If Western countries with Christian populations react differently against ISIS in responds Christians being killed it will lead to Muslims think that we don't care about Muslims being killed and only care about the Christians. That would turn it into a Christian assault on a Muslim population.

Who says they have to "act" differently....simply bomb the hell out of them, no matter who they are killing.

But I do see where you are coming from as far as the "rhetoric" is concerned.

IMO, you can call it whatever you want, but until we get boots on the ground in order to properly organize an all out attack, it won't happen quickly and efficiently. And this has to come from Obama, Germany and France have too much need of that oil, (we have lessened our needs quite a bit and have actually become OPEC's #1 competitor)...and PM of the UK just doesn't have the power to do anything. So whether Obama wants to or not, he is going to have to put his big boy pants on and lead.

And this is coming from a Libertarian that, if I could realistically do it, would be calling for a full on isolationist view on this, but I can't do that realistically. Something has to be done here, and it is going to have to come from us.

 

[herakles]

Assad had the army too, and the Libyan rebels controlled way more cities.

I think at this point he should arm the Kurds.

Yes but Putin stopped Obama from doing what he did in Libya.

Yes Obama SHOULD send arms to the Kurds asap!!!

 

[CaptainWagner]

I suspect the main reason is Turkey, which is a strategic partner of the United States.

The Kurds and Turks have been going at it in Southern Turkey since the 80's. It doesn't get much coverage, but that conflict is still ongoing.

The Turks know that the moment ISIS gets kicked out, the Kurds will focus on creating a larger independent state.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd say getting rid of ISIS is a bigger priority than keeping the Turks happy. I think the Kurds realize that stopping ISIS will put them in a prime position to ask for sovereignty, so, altruistic or not, they'll end the problem to the best of their abilities if given the proper armaments.

 

[herakles]

Also worth pointing out that the Kurds are mainly interested in well, the Kurds.

So, arming them is great for the Kurds, but it doesn't really solve the bigger issue, keeping the Iraqi state from collapsing.

Now the Kurds have been helping non-Kurds fleeing ISIS, but they're not going to retake the Iraqi and Syrian territory that has been taken and isn't part of Kurdistan, except maybe to make a buffer zone.

Also, if Iraqi Kurdistan breaks away; something which probably will happen (it's already fully autonomous for all intents and purposes) Iraq will be reduced to a rump state, which may just collapse altogether.

The Iraqi state was a British creation. There was never a Iraq before the British took Mesopotamia from the Ottomans. Time has come for the Kurds to have a nation of their own. Also they seem to be the only people willing to protect the Yazidi, Assyrians, and Chaldeans from ISIS.

 

[herakles]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd say getting rid of ISIS is a bigger priority than keeping the Turks happy. I think the Kurds realize that stopping ISIS will put them in a prime position to ask for sovereignty, so, altruistic or not, they'll end the problem to the best of their abilities if given the proper armaments.

To hell with the Turks. The Kurds would be a far mote willing ally in the region than the Turks have been. Turks have not given up their delusion or a NeoOttoman empire.

 

[Destructus86]

Here's my thing...the longer we wait to get involved the more power and the more of a foothold ISIS gets. Either we need to get more involved or get out of their completely. No more half-assing it.

 

[SV Fan]

Here's my thing...the longer we wait to get involved the more power and the more of a foothold ISIS gets. Either we need to get more involved or get out of their completely. No more half-assing it.

Here is the problem, the more we get involved we give ISIS what they want and become a recruiting tool for them.

Double edged sword.

Basically America is not going over there becoming the world police and having everybody love them for it, people in the middle East have to clean up their own mess, with outside help supporting all the people there in other ways beyond boots on the ground