The Clinton Thread II - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]516733[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]350004[/split]

 

[Matt]

Biden also has that sense of likability that many find lacking in Clinton.

Matt, do you have an theories as to why a half-cocked candidate like Trump's making the race difficult for the Democrats? It shouldn't, by any stretch of the imagination.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you commented on the lack of likability of Clinton. She just isn't a strong candidate. She was basically anointed into the Senate by the NY Democratic Party boxing out her opponents in a state where a Democrat cannot lose. Everyone knew she only wanted to be in the Senate for the sake of seeking the presidency and ever since she has given off the vibe that she is entitled to it. That rubs voters the wrong way. She rubs voters the wrong way.

So it has made what should be a slam dunk year for Democrats a close race. Ironically, only because Trump made what should be a slam dunk year for Republicans against a weak candidate that the Democratic establishment erroneously thought was unbeatable into an almost certain defeat.

 

[Matt Mortem]

I'd vote for Biden in a heartbeat. If he was running the election wouldn't as tight as it is. He would have buried Trump long ago.

 

[Victarion]

Do you think Jeb could've done it for the Republican vs Hillary?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you commented on the lack of likability of Clinton. She just isn't a strong candidate. She was basically anointed into the Senate by the NY Democratic Party boxing out her opponents in a state where a Democrat cannot lose. Everyone knew she only wanted to be in the Senate for the sake of seeking the presidency and ever since she has given off the vibe that she is entitled to it. That rubs voters the wrong way. She rubs voters the wrong way.

So it has made what should be a slam dunk year for Democrats a close race. Ironically, only because Trump made what should be a slam dunk year for Republicans against a weak candidate that the Democratic establishment erroneously thought was unbeatable into an almost certain defeat.

Don't forget that she has no charisma, and has proven herself to be incompetent with that stupid email scandal.

 

[Victarion]

I don't think she's necessarily incompetent; or rather, that was never my critcism of Mrs Clinton. My criticism is her destroying that device with a hammer. CNN had one of their fact-checkers confirm it, which I personally found more shocking.

The email thing is more like, "ok, you got lazy..."

 

[Alex Murphy]

US DEMOCRATIC candidate Hillary Clinton, diagnosed with pneumonia, became overheated and fell ill at a Sept. 11 memorial ceremony in an episode that renewed focus on her health less than two months before U.S. voters to elect their next president.

Clinton had a medical examination when she got back to her home in Chappaqua, New York, according to a campaign aide. Her doctor, Lisa Bardack, said in a statement that she has been experiencing a cough related to allergies and that an examination on Friday showed that she was suffering from pneumonia.

"She was put on antibiotics and advised to rest and modify her schedule. While at this morning's event, she became overheated and dehydrated. I have just examined her and she is now re-hydrated and recovering nicely," Bardack said.

Hillary Clinton diagnosed with pneumonia - doctors

 

[Sithborg]

I'd vote for Biden in a heartbeat. If he was running the election wouldn't as tight as it is. He would have buried Trump long ago.

Seeing that interview with Colbert really made me wish he had run.

But his heart isn't in it.

 

[Boom]

Yeah. Can't fault the guy if his heart wasn't in it, but I was really hoping he would have come around.

 

[samsnee]

Hillary Clinton diagnosed with pneumonia - doctors

No this is just a big cover-up. She doesn't have a letter written by her doctor that took all of 5 minutes while she was waiting in the car.

 

[2kt09]

I don't think she's necessarily incompetent; or rather, that was never my criticism of Mrs Clinton. My criticism is her destroying that device with a hammer. CNN had one of their fact-checkers confirm it, which I personally found more shocking.

The email thing is more like, "ok, you got lazy..."

More like proof of paranoia among other things

Also, did I miss the "Just when I think a Hillary health issue couldn't get any worse" party?

 

[Matt]

Do you think Jeb could've done it for the Republican vs Hillary?

I think any competent Republican would beat Hillary. I think Rick Santorum could've done it, to be honest.

Don't forget that she has no charisma, and has proven herself to be incompetent with that stupid email scandal.

Not incompetent, arrogant.

 

[Raiden]

I'd vote for Biden in a heartbeat. If he was running the election wouldn't as tight as it is. He would have buried Trump long ago.

Yeah, I've said it in this forum that I wished Biden had thrown his hat into the ring. He would be kicking Trump easily like Reagan did against Mondale in '84. But I still think Hillary can pull it off in the end.

 

[DeadPresident]

With the preface that it's almost impossible for Hillary to become the greater evil over Trump, are people really comfortable with how comfortably and easily she and her team lies to her voter base? I mean is it really presidential for someone to lie about something and only suddenly back-pedal when video evidence emerges making it impossible to sweep it under the rug any longer?

She's quickly showing herself to be just as dishonest and actively deceitful as Trump.

The most ridiculous thing is being caught out in multiple lies so far and then demanding that the public immediately accept this latest "explanation" as being true.

 

[Sithborg]

So, normal politician?

 

[DeadPresident]

So, normal politician?

Sure, but there's "Normal politician" (and the fact that we so casually accept being lied to is incredibly disturbing already, but that's for another time) and then there's blatantly lying even about relatively inconsequential things. Why lie about the pneumonia, if that's what it is, and if they knew about it already why not spin it positively?

My point is Clinton, potentially even moreso than Trump because Trump doesn't even know what he'll do from day to day, will likely obscure the truth for her full tenure. A Clinton presidency is fast looking like the American public will never actually know the truth of any situation, and Clinton will go to obviously extreme lengths to actively keep it from the public she alleges she wants to protect.

Are people comfortable living in a "democracy" where they'll be egregiously lied to and treated like morons for 4, possibly 8, years? I'm not sure people quite understand how dangerous it is to continue to normalize this - it boils down to the public tacitly condoning being treated any way a politician sees fit.

 

[Thundercrack85]

With the preface that it's almost impossible for Hillary to become the greater evil over Trump, are people really comfortable with how comfortably and easily she and her team lies to her voter base? I mean is it really presidential for someone to lie about something and only suddenly back-pedal when video evidence emerges making it impossible to sweep it under the rug any longer?

She's quickly showing herself to be just as dishonest and actively deceitful as Trump.

The most ridiculous thing is being caught out in multiple lies so far and then demanding that the public immediately accept this latest "explanation" as being true.

I think you're losing perspective if you think she is as dishonest and deceitful as Trump. It's gotten to the point that it's a news story when Trump says something that is actually true or accurate.

Is she a consummate politician who bends the truth? Absolutely.

But she has not been involved in over 3,000 law suits. She has noted refuse to release her tax returns. She hasn't accused any president of being born in Kenya, or claimed that her primary opponent's father was involved in the JFK assassination. She hasn't imagined thousands of people in New Jersey cheering when the World Trade Center was attacked. Does she claim she opposed the Iraq War when she actually supported it? You get the point hopefully.

She also doesn't have crazy people or frauds like Katrina Pierson or Mark Burns working for her. Trump is on his third campaign manager. The last one resigned because he had ties the deposed Ukrainian dictator

I mean, she's far from perfect, and has told some lies in the past. But let's not go nuts. At this point, Politifact might as well rename its "pants on fire" rating "something Donald Trump would say".

 

[DeadPresident]

I think you're losing perspective if you think she is as dishonest and deceitful as Trump. It's gotten to the point that it's a news story when Trump says something that is actually true or accurate.

Is she a consummate politician who bends the truth? Absolutely.

But she has not been involved in over 3,000 law suits. She has noted refuse to release her tax returns. She hasn't accused any president of being born in Kenya, or claimed that her primary opponent's father was involved in the JFK assassination. She hasn't imagined thousands of people in New Jersey cheering when the World Trade Center was attacked. Does she claim she opposed the Iraq War when she actually supported it? You get the point hopefully.

She also doesn't have crazy people or frauds like Katrina Pierson or Mark Burns working for her. Trump is on his third campaign manager. The last one resigned because he had ties the deposed Ukrainian dictator

I mean, she's far from perfect, and has told some lies in the past. But let's not go nuts. At this point, Politifact might as well rename its "pants on fire" rating to "something Donald Trump would say".

I'm not talking about numbers of incidents, I'm talking about a clear proclivity to lie as pathologically as Trump does. And even if she isn't as bad as Trump is, we've still gotten to the point where "As long as it's not as bad as Trump" has suddenly become synonymous with "Good enough", that's borderline Stockholm Syndrome.

Losing perspective is what happens when people will accept any alternative as long as it isn't associated with Trump, that deserves some critical analysis too. I'm not saying Clinton still isn't the lesser evil, I'm saying people need to continuously keep investigating that claim to make sure it remains true. While Trump is setting a record for most unfit presidential candidate with ease what's also happening is Clinton's transgressions are being made to appear less severe because they're being compared to Trump - that's also effectively being graded on a curve. A passing grade now is "Just don't be as bad as Trump", the American public needs to think a little on whether that's good enough.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I still don't think it's comparable.

Hillary is a lousy candidate, but she is still a normal politician. She makes empty promises, she bends the truth, and occasionally she outright lies. But not every word out of her mouth is demonstrably untrue like it is with Trump.

And what is the alternative? Gary "and what is Aleppo" Johnson? Harambe?

 

[DeadPresident]

I still don't think it's comparable.

In severity? No, I'd agree it isn't comparable, but that's not my claim. It's comparable in the sense of how easy it appears for both of them to lie to their "supporters". Just in the case of the pneumonia, my question is simple; why lie about it?

Hillary is a lousy candidate, but she is still a normal politician. She makes empty promises, she bends the truth, and occasionally she outright lies. But not every word out of her mouth is demonstrably untrue like it is with Trump.

And people are going to need to think a little about whether that's good enough. Again, the nature of this election has warped notions of acceptability completely because over time "anything but Trump" has been equated "Good enough". I agree Trump is still by far worse, but it's looking like a situation where someone will choose a firing squad over the electric chair and then try and argue with you they won't still be dead by the end of it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

In severity? No, I'd agree it isn't comparable, but that's not my claim. It's comparable in the sense of how easy it appears for both of them to lie to their "supporters". Just in the case of the pneumonia, my question is simple; why lie about it?

Because it makes an already weak candidate look weaker.

And people are going to need to think a little about whether that's good enough. Again, the nature of this election has warped notions of acceptability completely because over time "anything but Trump" has been equated "Good enough". I agree Trump is still by far worse, but it's looking like a situation where someone will choose a firing squad over the electric chair and then try and argue with you they won't still be dead by the end of it.

Again, there is no alternative. Really. It's Gary Johnson, Harambe or Deez Nuts.

It's her, or Trump. It's her or the guy who talks about using nuclear weapons and calls for war crimes.

I have faith that Hillary won't destroy this country. I honestly cannot say that about Trump. I disliked Mitt Romney, but he was a sane person. Trump, I just don't know. He scares me.

 

[Legendver2]

And people are going to need to think a little about whether that's good enough. Again, the nature of this election has warped notions of acceptability completely because over time "anything but Trump" has been equated "Good enough". I agree Trump is still by far worse, but it's looking like a situation where someone will choose a firing squad over the electric chair and then try and argue with you they won't still be dead by the end of it.

At this point, it just seems like an empty rant. There's no way around it. We are stuck with these choices. No matter what is said about either, we are stuck with them. So there's really no point to arguing Clinton's merits or lack thereof because it's either her or Trump. We are literally stuck with a choice of being potentially lied to for 4 years, or worrying about giving nuclear codes to a 5 year old for 4 years. Yea, neither are good, but the choice is obvious.

 

[Sithborg]

When you have one candidate whose positions are completely opposite of what I feel America should be, yes, she is good enough.

 

[Raiden]

At this point, it just seems like an empty rant. There's no way around it. We are stuck with these choices. No matter what is said about either, we are stuck with them. So there's really no point to arguing Clinton's merits or lack thereof because it's either her or Trump. We are literally stuck with a choice of being potentially lied to for 4 years, or worrying about giving nuclear codes to a 5 year old for 4 years. Yea, neither are good, but the choice is obvious.

What's even scarier than having a 5-year-old holding the Nuclear Code is the man he picked as his VP; A Penne Presidency is even worse than a Trump's.