🥊 The Official Boxing Thread!!! - Part 5

[DarthSkywalker]

My father's manager was the great (and I don't use that word lightly) Jackie McCoy and he used to tell my father "If you want to win a fight, don't allow the judges to take it away from you" (that's a paraphrase), but what he meant was that any time a fight is in any way close, you have a chance of losing. You need to get after your guy, stay on him, and eliminate any doubt about he decision. There are always going to be stupid, incompetent, and less-than-honest judges, but you usually don't get more than one of them at a time. Again, I didn't see the fight, but if one judge saw a draw and the other saw GGG by 2, you generally can't complain too much.

I think the obvious problem here is that it is really hard to give Canelo any of 3-9. The first was a typical eh, start. The second was clearly Canelo. 10-12 were very similar. Canelo lands some nice blows in the first 30-45 seconds. He then proceeded to get out landed for the vast majority of the round, while being moved and dictated by GGG.

 

[B]

This is so well put. Atlas exaggerates quite a bit, but one thing I loved that he mentioned was the draw scorecard in conjunction with Bird's is exactly what you get in a robbery.

I was watching some of the footage of Atlas yesterday & he was absolutely livid. He does exaggerate some things as you say largely because he was so upset, but a lot of what he has said in the various clips I've seen of him is right on the, no pun intended, money.

My father's manager was the great (and I don't use that word lightly) Jackie McCoy and he used to tell my father "If you want to win a fight, don't allow the judges to take it away from you" (that's a paraphrase), but what he meant was that any time a fight is in any way close, you have a chance of losing. You need to get after your guy, stay on him, and eliminate any doubt about he decision. There are always going to be stupid, incompetent, and less-than-honest judges, but you usually don't get more than one of them at a time. Again, I didn't see the fight, but if one judge saw a draw and the other saw GGG by 2, you generally can't complain too much.

I really hate that saying & all variations of 'Never leave it in the hands of the judges.' To me the judges should be competent enough to always raise the hand of the correct man, perhaps increasing the number of judges to 5, particularly in boxing, might decrease the possibility of having these sorts of decisions.

I'd love to know the origins of that saying & the thoughts behind it, was it to try & encourage fighters to try to put their opponents away more often or did it come about because of a series of bad judging decisions.. ?

 

[InCali]

I think the obvious problem here is that it is really hard to give Canelo any of 3-9. The first was a typical eh, start. The second was clearly Canelo. 10-12 were very similar. Canelo lands some nice blows in the first 30-45 seconds. He then proceeded to get out landed for the vast majority of the round, while being moved and dictated by GGG.

Yeah. I can't comment with any authority. I'm just saying if 2 judges (forget about the wacko) saw the fight that close, anything can happen. Somebody could sneeze and miss something and who wins a round is, with the exception of a lopsided round, very, very subjective. I hear people talk about number of punches, the perceived power of the punch, the effect the punch has on the opponent (in which case the same punch would probably be judged differently if a guy has a glass jaw even it he doesn't go down), etc. Judges are people who see things differently from person to person. Until we've got sensors on fighters or some sort of objectively measurable criteria, we're always going to have this sort of thing happen. Some would even argue that it's part of what makes the sport interesting.

 

[InCali]

I was watching some of the footage of Atlas yesterday & he was absolutely livid. He does exaggerate some things as you say largely because he was so upset, but a lot of what he has said in the various clips I've seen of him is right on the, no pun intended, money.



I really hate that saying & all variations of 'Never leave it in the hands of the judges.' To me the judges should be competent enough to always raise the hand of the correct man, perhaps increasing the number of judges to 5, particularly in boxing, might decrease the possibility of having these sorts of decisions.

I'd love to know the origins of that saying & the thoughts behind it, was it to try & encourage fighters to try to put their opponents away more often or did it come about because of a series of bad judging decisions.. ?

I hear what you're saying and understand it, but, frankly, there's NO WAY IN THE WORLD that the judges will always raise the hand of the winner and the "winner" is subjective and not just what you or someone else thinks it is. What judges should be isn't what they are. They are people who have different opinions and are doing something highly subjective. A lot of the time it just isn't cut and dry. We talk about this all the time. Was BvS a good movie? The consensus is that it wasn't, but if you hear some people talk about it, you'd think Shakespeare, Marlowe, Tolstoy, and Dante all got together and wrote the script.

The consensus seems to be that GGG won, but until people get to weigh in on the decisions, the judges make the call and sometimes those 2 opinions don't line up; but that doesn't necessarily make it a "bad" decision. It makes it a decision that a lot of people don't agree with. How exactly do you judge who "won" a close round? There's just flat out going to be variation and, most of the time, there's some level of uncertainty.

WRT how the saying came about, I can't say, but do know what Jackie was thinking. He recognized that there was a lot of variability in how people see a fight (though he would have worded it differently LOL) and he wasn't necessarily trying to get his guy to knock his opponent out (though he was all for that). He WAS trying to get his guy to get everything out of what he had and shrink the possibility of a decision going against his guy. And, yes, Jackie saw more than his share of bad decisions and crooked judges. As I said, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be (but still needs a lot of improvement).

 

[Docker2.0]

This is extremely telling.



Anytime that the person that wins doesn't get their hand raised, it's a robbery. The overwhelming majority that watched the fight saw a GGG win by 2-4 rounds with a small minority seeing a draw & a near non-existent smaller minority still seeing a Canelo win. loco

Had a competent or non-corrupt judge been in Byrd's seat, judging by the overwhelming majority of people that saw a GGG, win even if only by 2 rounds, the likelihood is it would have been scored as a GGG win.

That scorecard was an absolute disgrace on every level & likely cost GGG a win over Canelo. That's why it's a robbery/bs.

Most people are casuals and don't know boxing. GGG came forward the entire night and Canelo's plan was to counter, in which he did. GGG was swinging at air most of the night while Canelo had the cleaner shots. Tell me that at least you can admit that.

My father's manager was the great (and I don't use that word lightly) Jackie McCoy and he used to tell my father "If you want to win a fight, don't allow the judges to take it away from you" (that's a paraphrase), but what he meant was that any time a fight is in any way close, you have a chance of losing. You need to get after your guy, stay on him, and eliminate any doubt about he decision. There are always going to be stupid, incompetent, and less-than-honest judges, but you usually don't get more than one of them at a time. Again, I didn't see the fight, but if one judge saw a draw and the other saw GGG by 2, you generally can't complain too much.

Exactly! People are singling out the bad judge, and they should give her a hard time but the other judges had it a draw and GGG only winning by two rounds. This is nowhere near the robbery people are making it out to be. It could have gone either way, I just had Canelo winning by a round.........I know it's 12 rounds so it's either 6-6 or 7-5 but that's how close I had the fight. Just giving Canelo a round.

 

[Doc Samson]

Again, there's no way I can see anyone saying Canelo didn't win at least 6 rounds. He faded during the middle, inexplicably IMO because this has been his primary flaw from the start, I would think for a fight of this magnitude his conditioning would've been better.

That being said, he was willingly backing up. Every time he wanted to come forward, he came forward and landed. Besides him trying to regain energy, he was looking to counter off the ropes. He did it too much, and credit to GGG, he took all the shots with relative ease.

But I'll tell you this, the rematch should be a hell of a lot easier for Canelo because GGG couldn't hurt him either. All he has to do is work him in the middle of the ring, GGG couldn't touch him. And further than that, GGG and anyone in his camp shouldn't mention Ward again.

 

[LaughterLives]

watch it again. Canelo won 4 rounds and only 4 rounds. Slow it down if you have to.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Again, there's no way I can see anyone saying Canelo didn't win at least 6 rounds. He faded during the middle, inexplicably IMO because this has been his primary flaw from the start, I would think for a fight of this magnitude his conditioning would've been better.

That being said, he was willingly backing up. Every time he wanted to come forward, he came forward and landed. Besides him trying to regain energy, he was looking to counter off the ropes. He did it too much, and credit to GGG, he took all the shots with relative ease.

But I'll tell you this, the rematch should be a hell of a lot easier for Canelo because GGG couldn't hurt him either. All he has to do is work him in the middle of the ring, GGG couldn't touch him. And further than that, GGG and anyone in his camp shouldn't mention Ward again.

And yet the fast majority who know what they are talking about in terms of media and former fighters have it clearly for GGG. Perhaps people who had Canelo winning before the fight just want to see it that way.

It is amazing you think Canelo has the gas tank to do that, when he was sucking wind in the 3 round, while being completely out worked by a much older fighter. Canelo didn't want his back on the ropes, he just couldn't get away, because GGG knows how to cut off the ring. And if he can hit GGG at will, explain his punch stats and how he was easily outlanded.

 

[The Endless]

Didn't Canelo put on nearly a stone between weigh in and the fight? It clearly effects his stamina.

No way did he win 6 rounds.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Didn't Canelo put on nearly a stone between weigh in and the fight? It clearly effects his stamina.

No way did he win 6 rounds.

Canelo cuts a ridiculous amount of weight. He is a wide man.

 

[Doc Samson]

watch it again. Canelo won 4 rounds and only 4 rounds. Slow it down if you have to.

I have, and he won rounds 2-4, actually you could give him the 1st or 7th too. And he won the last 3 rounds. Normal speed is fine to see this.

And yet the fast majority who know what they are talking about in terms of media and former fighters have it clearly for GGG. Perhaps people who had Canelo winning before the fight just want to see it that way.

It is amazing you think Canelo has the gas tank to do that, when he was sucking wind in the 3 round, while being completely out worked by a much older fighter. Canelo didn't want his back on the ropes, he just couldn't get away, because GGG knows how to cut off the ring. And if he can hit GGG at will, explain his punch stats and how he was easily outlanded.

Some people had it as a draw, people with the same pedigree that you're talking about. A draw is fair, but you're pretending that GGG blew him out the water or something and it's ridiculous.

As far as the stats, GGG threw almost 200 more punches, and barely landed 50 more blows, I don't see how that's a landslide. Canelo gassed early, and quit working, that's it. I give GGG those rounds, but let's not act as if that lasted more than half the fight, it didn't. Not even close. Canelo is a superior boxer, and for someone moving up to challenge this guy, he took everything he had in stride with no problems. Look at their faces after the fight, you tell me who looks like they had been in one, and who didn't...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I have, and he won rounds 2-4, actually you could give him the 1st or 7th too. And he won the last 3 rounds. Normal speed is fine to see this.



Some people had it as a draw, people with the same pedigree that you're talking about. A draw is fair, but you're pretending that GGG blew him out the water or something and it's ridiculous.

As far as the stats, GGG threw almost 200 more punches, and barely landed 50 more blows, I don't see how that's a landslide. Canelo gassed early, and quit working, that's it. I give GGG those rounds, but let's not act as if that lasted more than half the fight, it didn't. Not even close. Canelo is a superior boxer, and for someone moving up to challenge this guy, he took everything he had in stride with no problems. Look at their faces after the fight, you tell me who looks like they had been in one, and who didn't...

Some is a very small percentage of those who had the fight a draw or Canelo winning. The vast majority had GGG, and you want to ignore that.

He landed nearly the exact same amount of power punches and landed way more jabs. He outscored him, easily. The entire argument that Canelo stopped working is so bad, because it avoids why he stopped working and the fact that GGG had him moving all over the ring, getting tired. This wasn't Mayweather making Canelo chase and look foolish. Canelo was getting hit.

If Canelo can easily outbox and hurt GGG, he would have done it. If he didn't fear the power, he wouldn't have been defending all night.

 

[Doc Samson]

Some is a very small percentage of those who had the fight a draw or Canelo winning. The vast majority had GGG, and you want to ignore that.

He landed nearly the exact same amount of power punches and landed way more jabs. He outscored him, easily. The entire argument that Canelo stopped working is so bad, because it avoids why he stopped working and the fact that GGG had him moving all over the ring, getting tired. This wasn't Mayweather making Canelo chase and look foolish. Canelo was getting hit.

If Canelo can easily outbox and hurt GGG, he would have done it. If he didn't fear the power, he wouldn't have been defending all night.

So this is the first time Canelo gassed? This isn't something we've seen before or talked about in here ever? Really? GGG's "strategy" isn't what caused this lol, it's been happening to Canelo and I thought he was over it, guess not. GGG looked hesitant to really attack him on the ropes at first anyway, Canelo even motioned him to come forward. If he's under fear or concerned with being hurt, why would he do that? I think GGG caught him flush in rd 5 with a hook he didn't see coming, and Canelo barely budged. After that, I knew once he got some energy (IF he got some energy) he would be able to stand toe to toe and exchange without worry. And he did in the championship rounds.

GGG, to his credit, kept the pressure up, but I didn't think it was much different than Trinidad-De la Hoya except for the fact that Canelo did way more damage and landed a hell of a lot more than Oscar did. Just coming forward & missing shots isn't effective pressure.

 

[LaughterLives]

hahaha! then learn to count, doc.

 

[LaughterLives]

"GGG looked hesitant to really attack him on the ropes at first anyway, Canelo even motioned him to come forward. If he's under fear or concerned with being hurt, why would he do that? I think GGG caught him flush in rd 5 with a hook he didn't see coming, and Canelo barely budged. After that, I knew once he got some energy (IF he got some energy) he would be able to stand toe to toe and exchange without worry. And he did in the championship rounds."

He was being smart, not hesitant. Canelo is a counter puncher and everyone is aware of this. The ropes are where Canelo lives. Its his comfort zone but GGG didn't fear this. He was being cautious.
He still stayed on him. Notice when Canelo stopped shaking his head at GGG, that's the moment he was defeated.
I was rooting for Canelo but he lost this fight as clear as day.
The only times Canelo was doing any damage was when he brought GGG to the middle of the ring. Even his coach was pushing him to do this and he really didn't do it often enough.

It was a draw cuz of what day it was and to make more money off the rematch. If the fight didn't end in a clear knockout, the plan was to call it a draw from the beginning. Its why they pushed the fight back to begin with.

 

[InCali]

Adalaide Byrd is taking a "break" from judging major fights for awhile. She conducts training classes on how to score fights. How frelling funny is THAT.

"Hey, you need to attend our boxing judge training class so you know how to score a fight properly." LOL

 

[B]

Most people are casuals and don't know boxing. GGG came forward the entire night and Canelo's plan was to counter, in which he did. GGG was swinging at air most of the night while Canelo had the cleaner shots. Tell me that at least you can admit that.

Look at antonydelfini's post, all of those names aren't 'casual' fans they are media, trainers, current/ex-pros & the overwhelming majority of them all score the fight for GGG.

I've already said, I don't think there was anything Canelo landed that was significantly better than what GGG landed.

I don't get why people are trying to act like GGG wasn't hitting Canelo, sure he missed a lot, but he also landed a lot as well. His shots might not have been looping hooks or uppercuts, but he was still landing & when you are landing you are scoring.. or should be unless your name is Adelaide Byrd.

 

[B]

Adalaide Byrd is taking a "break" from judging major fights for awhile. She conducts training classes on how to score fights. How frelling funny is THAT.

"Hey, you need to attend our boxing judge training class so you know how to score a fight properly." LOL

 

[Docker2.0]

Look at antonydelfini's post, all of those names aren't 'casual' fans they are media, trainers, current/ex-pros & the overwhelming majority of them all score the fight for GGG.

I've already said, I don't think there was anything Canelo landed that was significantly better than what GGG landed.

I don't get why people are trying to act like GGG wasn't hitting Canelo, sure he missed a lot, but he also landed a lot as well. His shots might not have been looping hooks or uppercuts, but he was still landing & when you are landing you are scoring.. or should be unless your name is Adelaide Byrd.

Look at the fight again and tell me GGG had the more significant "glaring" punches. He did not. Did he catch Canelo? Yes, but nowhere near as much as Canelo caught him. We just agree to disagree. Close fight, could have gone either way in my eyes but it is what it is.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Have we found out what Adelaide Byrd was smoking on the night?

 

[Black Narcissus]

Eh, ya'll can bring up every boxing expert and I still have it for Canelo by two. I have seen the fight now 3 times. Shrugs. Sure, most here have it the other way and so do most experts, but i dont give a damn.lol

I'm not a fanboy of either boxers by the way. I'm neutral. The other two judges aint brought up as much, but they also had it very closed. Ya'll can disqualify this armchair boxing fan all you want. Lawd.

 

[Doc Samson]

Eh, ya'll can bring up every boxing expert and I still have it for Canelo by two. I have seen the fight now 3 times. Shrugs. Sure, most here have it the other way and so do most experts, but i dont give a damn.lol

I'm not a fanboy of either boxers by the way. I'm neutral. The other two judges aint brought up as much, but they also had it very closed. Ya'll can disqualify this armchair boxing fan all you want. Lawd.

The more I watch this, the closer I get to an outright Canelo victory. Of course that one scorecard was ridiculous, but people are letting that skew the entire fight too strongly in GGG's favor. I wasn't even giving Canelo the 1st round, but I do now, I think he got the first 4 clearly. Getting countered and pawing with a jab isn't effective pressure, I don't care what anybody says. When GGG wasn't missing, a lot of it was blocked. They did a good job of sucking him off during the live telecast, but over time I think more people will be on the fence about this fight...

 

[Docker2.0]

Eh, ya'll can bring up every boxing expert and I still have it for Canelo by two. I have seen the fight now 3 times. Shrugs. Sure, most here have it the other way and so do most experts, but i dont give a damn.lol

I'm not a fanboy of either boxers by the way. I'm neutral. The other two judges aint brought up as much, but they also had it very closed. Ya'll can disqualify this armchair boxing fan all you want. Lawd.

Yep! Well, Lederman said GGG dominated Canelo so it must be true. I tell people all the time, watch HBO fights with the volume down so you won't get swayed during the fight.

The more I watch this, the closer I get to an outright Canelo victory. Of course that one scorecard was ridiculous, but people are letting that skew the entire fight too strongly in GGG's favor. I wasn't even giving Canelo the 1st round, but I do now, I think he got the first 4 clearly. Getting countered and pawing with a jab isn't effective pressure, I don't care what anybody says. When GGG wasn't missing, a lot of it was blocked. They did a good job of sucking him off during the live telecast, but over time I think more people will be on the fence about this fight...

HBO knows how to build it's fighters.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Jake LaMotta, ‘Raging Bull’ boxing legend, has died at the age of 96 http://nydn.us/2xn9rSd

 

[InCali]

Yep! Well, Lederman said GGG dominated Canelo so it must be true. I tell people all the time, watch HBO fights with the volume down so you won't get swayed during the fight.



HBO knows how to build it's fighters.

I NEVER have the audio on when I watch a fight. Never. I don't think anyone will sway me, but I'm just not that interested in what most of those guys have to say. The one person I rather liked to listen to was, if you can believe it, Big George Foreman.

I found my father on BoxRec. I had no idea anyone took the time to catalog fighters from way back when. Jackie thought he had a lot of talent as a boxer and was always pushing him to train as hard as he chased women. He told me that he was terribly out of shape in his loss and drained by making the weight (he had to sit in one of those steam thingys for hours to sweat off the water weight so he could make 135 and in those days weigh in was the day of the fight so you couldn't really rehydrate. Jackie made him fight the same guy twice more. He took a couple of years off and was overseas in the service. When he got back, Jackie refused to put him in against better opponents until he showed he was taking things seriously and, of course, he never did so Jackie told him he wouldn't manage/train him anymore. The thing about Jackie was that he didn't use his fighters and wouldn't let them get hurt so he could make a buck. He was a really good guy and him and my father remained friends for many, many years.

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/205799