The Amazing Spider-Man 616 or Ultimate?

[DACMAN]

I'm not arguing whether Ultimate is good or not, that's opinion.

But saying it is better than the 616, or saying that the 616 is crap is just utterly wrong.

Yeah, thanks for the lession on what an opinion is. You do know that saying 616 is better than Ultimate is an opinion right?

And when did I say 616 "is crap"? I love the 616 U, that's what got me into Spidey, HULK, and all the others. But that doesn't mean after 60+ years it doesn't need updated. The fact the Iron Man movies are already taking from the Ultimate universe proves that. The fact these new Spidey movies are doing the Ultimate universe proves that. The fact the last Spidey cartoon was based on the Ultimate universe proves that. The fact the new Spidey cartoon coming to Disney XD is based off of Ultimate Spidey proves that. The fact 90% of the merchandise you see for Spider-Man is based off the Ultimate concept proves that.

Actually no... it's harder to write a decent story when the mythos has been crapped on. It was a great story DESPITE the Spider-Man mythos going to ****.

Think of it like movies. You have a really, really crap film... then you have to follow it up with a sequel. It's gonna be hard for that sequel to impress people of be any good because of what came before it.

I can actually see your point here. When you're given crap to work with and you actually put out something decent...

But my point still stands as well. When people are expecting crap it isn't hard to please.

 

[Judge Holden]

Yea i guess i can agree with your point about when people expect crap it isn't hard to please.

But on the same token, like i said, if what has come before it is crap, people will have that in the back of their mind, perhaps making them feel bias towards it. I admit i felt like that. After OMD i had enough of Spidey. Then along came Gauntlet, and in particular the Sandman part of it, and it blew me away. Even if i went into it thinking "Ahhh OMD ruined everything" i was still thoroughly impressed.

And when was it confirmed the new movies were gonna be Ultimate? All i will say is... they better not use Ultimate Goblin... a bastardization of the character.

Anyway, you either ignored or missed my point...

The Ultimate universes sole reason for creation was accessability to a new generation of comic book readers. People who didn't read comics before and who don't want to go back and read decades and decades of older books just to understand what is happening today. The Ultimate books allow them to just jump straight into a universe filled with characters they recognize from movies or tv shows or games... but not feel like "noobs" and don't have a clue what is going on. You see what i'm saying?

It has nothing to do with the 616 needing updating or becoming stale or whatever.

 

[DACMAN]

Anyway, you either ignored or missed my point...

The Ultimate universes sole reason for creation was accessability to a new generation of comic book readers. People who didn't read comics before and who don't want to go back and read decades and decades of older books just to understand what is happening today. The Ultimate books allow them to just jump straight into a universe filled with characters they recognize from movies or tv shows or games... but not feel like "noobs" and don't have a clue what is going on. You see what i'm saying?

Not really. I grew up in the 80's and 90's and I still read the old Lee/Ditko stuff. It was great, but really dated. They had to update it. Otherwise why not just reprint all the old stuff so the new generation could continue to read it? They didn't do that. Instead they updated everything.

 

[sabetoonth]

actuslly they did start with reprinting those old books, Marvel Age books, i bought a couple of them, though i dont own the one with Lizard. it was new art, but the same writing.
then they replaced that with marvel Adventures
but i believe it has been said that Ultimate Marvel was created so new readers wouldnt have to know decades of stories to understand the current books. Ultimate Marvel does allow that.
now i love both 616 and 1060(i think thats the Ultimate U) i like some parts over others (Ockneto is a bad idea, Wolverine dying is a bad idea, etc etc, while other things i find cool, Logan defecting from Mags side to the X-men)

 

[Judge Holden]

Not really. I grew up in the 80's and 90's and I still read the old Lee/Ditko stuff. It was great, but really dated. They had to update it. Otherwise why not just reprint all the old stuff so the new generation could continue to read it? They didn't do that. Instead they updated everything.

You are still not making any sense...

I'm not talking about Ditko/Lee old school stuff...

I'm talking about the 616 as a whole. The modern comics. They have all this history going back decades, a lot of the time stuff that is important to the characters in the modern era.

Marvel thought that due to the TV shows, games and what not, there was potential for new readers out there who had never read comics before. So they started the Ultimate universe so these potential readers could jump on board without having to play catch up in the 616.

Ultimate universe was created for a new generation of comic book reader. A new customer base. In other words... $$$.

 

[NowTheWorld]

The cohesive narrative, relatable characters, and modern take must be lifted from Ultimate. The overall mythology and storylines ( The Ditko/Romita/Conway era) must be taken from 616. There is a very simple and powerful way to combine the best elements of each line to tell the best Spider-Man story. Anyone who says there's nothing any other universe but 616/USM can give to the script is simply ******ed.

 

[sabetoonth]

i have to agree with ya NTW, that is a very enlightened way of saying it. i mean if they could take things from the Bixby Hulk show then why not combine different aspects of many other Spidey interpretations?
use some SSM stuff even, like maybe Pete and Eddie's relationship.

 

[Oscorp]

If there is anything I didn't like about SSM, it is Parker's and Brock's whole "bro" thing! I would hate to see something like that on screen.

 

[sabetoonth]

i like how their relationship changed from:
Buddy
Bully
I'ma kill you

 

[Infinity9999x]

If there is anything I didn't like about SSM, it is Parker's and Brock's whole "bro" thing! I would hate to see something like that on screen.

Aside from calling each other bro, which I agree was a bad idea, the characterization on Brock and Peter was actually very good. Certainly better then what the original storyline in the comics was.

 

[sabetoonth]

i wasnt saying have it exactly like SSM, but the whole freind to enemy plot i think was well executed, and Andy C is making great use of that too in the Allstar Marvel RPG

 

[Infinity9999x]

i wasnt saying have it exactly like SSM, but the whole freind to enemy plot i think was well executed, and Andy C is making great use of that too in the Allstar Marvel RPG

Oh I agree with that. I really enjoyed the way Brock transitioned from friend to villain. It was done very well. That was great example of blending 616, Ultimate, and a touch of their own creativity into Venom. Aside from the "Bro" thing, I think it may be my favorite incarnation of the character so far.

 

[sabetoonth]

after the show left CW, i couldnt watch it so i never got to see much of that transition, but i did read about it

 

[Infinity9999x]

after the show left CW, i couldnt watch it so i never got to see much of that transition, but i did read about it

Youtube my friend. I watched both seasons on youtube last summer. Now it just makes me sad, because that show was shaping up to be this generations Batman:TAS. Probably the most bitter I've been about a show being canceled since Firefly.

 

[sabetoonth]

i know! and this crap with a bave and the bold type show is BS, i did love SSM when i saw it

 

[Rodrigo90]

They should keep things close to Ultimate.

Peter and Eddie are more or less best friends,and Harry is only pals with Peter cause he does his homework for him.

It would good to show Peter's parents,and Eddie's dad were killed in a plane crash,but unknown to either of them that it was because of Edward Sr being Venom.

Instead of Venom being a suit to cure cancer,it would be cool to incorporate the 616 version. Say a vital peice of the formula was found in South America,where it was developed for a few months by Richard,Mary Edward and other scientists, Upon their return,the suit became alive (as it really was the alien symbiote) it tried to bond with Richard,but Edward saved him and he himself was absorbed and killed everybody.

The symbiote survived however,and was recovered,where scientists continue to study it,but it only becomes fully active if it bonds with either Peter or Eddie. It bonded little much of Richard,so that it doesn't turn Peter into a huge monster like Eddie.

 

[Infinity9999x]

They should keep things close to Ultimate.

Peter and Eddie are more or less best friends,and Harry is only pals with Peter cause he does his homework for him.

It would good to show Peter's parents,and Eddie's dad were killed in a plane crash,but unknown to either of them that it was because of Edward Sr being Venom.

Instead of Venom being a suit to cure cancer,it would be cool to incorporate the 616 version. Say a vital peice of the formula was found in South America,where it was developed for a few months by Richard,Mary Edward and other scientists, Upon their return,the suit became alive (as it really was the alien symbiote) it tried to bond with Richard,but Edward saved him and he himself was absorbed and killed everybody.

The symbiote survived however,and was recovered,where scientists continue to study it,but it only becomes fully active if it bonds with either Peter or Eddie. It bonded little much of Richard,so that it doesn't turn Peter into a huge monster like Eddie.

That's not a bad idea, but if they do Venom again, I would want them to stay closer to SSM. That had the perfect blend of 616 and Ultimate. Eddie and Peter were childhood friends, but Eddie kept his 616 build. I've always been more of a fan of the suit coming in on Jameson's shuttle, but having the parents be the one who found the symbiote to begin with could be interesting. It also bypasses one big problem I had with the whole symbiote thing, why Peter decided it was a good idea to leave that suit on him when he knew it was alive. This way, he could actually think it was just some sort of advanced project his parents were working on, until he realizes it was actually an alien life form.

Not sure if I'd want it to have actually absorbed Edward. I'd keep it as a thing they were experimenting, and it never got a chance to fully bond to someone until Peter somehow stumbled across it.

However, I wouldn't have Harry only be Pete's friend because he does his homework. I never liked that idea. I thought SSM handled it well. Harry was good friends with Pete, but he started to blow Pete off a bit when he started getting popular.

 

[sabetoonth]

They should keep things close to Ultimate.

Peter and Eddie are more or less best friends,and Harry is only pals with Peter cause he does his homework for him.

It would good to show Peter's parents,and Eddie's dad were killed in a plane crash,but unknown to either of them that it was because of Edward Sr being Venom.

Instead of Venom being a suit to cure cancer,it would be cool to incorporate the 616 version. Say a vital peice of the formula was found in South America,where it was developed for a few months by Richard,Mary Edward and other scientists, Upon their return,the suit became alive (as it really was the alien symbiote) it tried to bond with Richard,but Edward saved him and he himself was absorbed and killed everybody.

The symbiote survived however,and was recovered,where scientists continue to study it,but it only becomes fully active if it bonds with either Peter or Eddie. It bonded little much of Richard,so that it doesn't turn Peter into a huge monster like Eddie.

not bad, but i think Infinity's suggestions make it an even better idea, maybe the suit/alien was meant to be used as a space suit and john tests it out in space and his shuttle crashes/ as Spidey is pulling them all out of the shuttle it latches onto him

 

[Rodrigo90]

Much better. Blends the 2 aspects together nicely.

Yeah,I never liked the Ultimate way of Peter and Harry.

I think it would be a nice touch if Peter was becoming more popular at school through his confidence boost as Spidey. Harry, already feeling neglected by his father,feels neglected by his best and only friend and only social outlet,who makes excuses so he can be Spider-Man. But Harry feels hes being blowed off and lied to by Peter, so he can be with the more popular kids and go partying. Drawing closer to the drug problem.

 

[sabetoonth]

or the goblin situation, and a drug problem

 

[Infinity9999x]

Much better. Blends the 2 aspects together nicely.

Yeah,I never liked the Ultimate way of Peter and Harry.

I think it would be a nice touch if Peter was becoming more popular at school through his confidence boost as Spidey. Harry, already feeling neglected by his father,feels neglected by his best and only friend and only social outlet,who makes excuses so he can be Spider-Man. But Harry feels hes being blowed off and lied to by Peter, so he can be with the more popular kids and go partying. Drawing closer to the drug problem.

That's actually pretty close to what SSM did. Great minds think alike That would definitely be a good way to go. I would really like to see Harry's/Peter's relationship explored more in the new movies. Heck, I'd just like to see the supporting cast used more in general.

That's one of the things I loved about SSM so much. They did a great, great job with the supporting cast. Especially characters like Flash, who are easy to make one-dimensional. They turned them into well rounded characters (Flash had some great moments in both Season 1 and 2, I liked him more then I've ever liked the character before.)

 

[Doc Ock]

Why not just use influences of both the 616 and the Ultimate universes? That way, fans of both universes could be happy....oh wait, thats probably not going to happen...

 

[sabetoonth]

most of us have been saying use a combination of both, but no, not everyone will be happy

 

[Spider-Kid]

616 is vastly superior to Ultimate.

This. t:

But still focus on Parker' in high school, much like the Ultimate' comics.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Why not just use influences of both the 616 and the Ultimate universes? That way, fans of both universes could be happy....oh wait, thats probably not going to happen...

That's what I've been saying. Which is why I reference SSM so often. It had (in my opinion) pretty much the perfect blend of 616/Ultimate. And I see no reason why we can't get that.

I would certainly be annoyed to see the next movie go completely Ultimate. Hulk Goblin is not a good way to go.