85th Annual Academy Awards (2013)

[grout]

Dude, then drop it. And nothing's been edited out. As I said, "that makes perfect sense" to drop it. Don't get overly emotional dude. Now, please let the people trying to move on talk about the merits of the script itself and leave it be. I've had this question before you even appeared on here.

---

Is the movie a straight-rip from broadway with just increased visual cues or have things dramatically changed, as in changing and shifting things around like others would need to do in adapting other sources? Musicals just seem to be the easiest form to translate because the same narrative restrictions aren't placed on it that are placed onto other sources. Most of it is already there other than exact visual cues. Really difficult to explain lol, and unsure if I'm doing it right. Just having adapted a musical and a novel, the musical was straight-forward whereas the novel was bound to certain changes.

LOl Sure, I believe you now.....

That makes sense

--------

 

[Ultimatehero]

Anyways, *ahem* can anyone tell me how different it is from the version on stage? Is it a straight-up rip or have things changed dramatically?

ADDING (for clarification, from before):

And from a writing perspective, to those who have seen the musical on stage - how different is the film from what is on the stage? Is it just the technical aspects or is it more than that? Just asking because I don't understand how it could really run for best adapted screenplay because it seems like it's just an exact copy more or less just with taking different cues into mind. To me a musical film is about completely capturing what's on the screen rather than shaking it up to make it fit the structure of a film like you would when adapting other properties. Having adapted both, it is an extremely different form of adaptation. With other properties, you have to be more mindful to the film structure whereas with musicals you're aiming to make it a replica of what is on stage for those who didn't get to see it on stage.

 

[Schlosser85]

They added a couple exchanges with Javert and Jean where Javert first comes to town as a segue between scenes/full musical numbers, and added the song "Suddenly", which is an original song created specifically for the movie, and added the moment where Javert pins the medal on Gavroche.

Small stuff like that.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Then, yeah, I just don't see it being nominated. Not to intend anything or at least don't think it deserves to in regards to it script. The musical itself deserves recognition, but not the film for the script. Might seem off topic, but stay with me - I translated the 'American Idiot' musical to cinematic form (possible to get acquired due to contacts) - which required basically everything except for the plot and moments to be re-invented including new musical numbers (there's basically no scenery changes or props in the show, it's classic black box theatre) - and it was still the easiest script I've ever written. Basically because everything is already there and it was just my job to offer as direct a translation as I could.

Just, in my humblest opinion, I believe adapters of novels, comics, etc. deserve the most recognition because they have stricter boundaries in which they have to work with that a musical doesn't. Sometimes in novels two characters have to become one or events have to be moved around possibly deleted entirely among other obstacles in the way of its translation. Les Mis probably faced that, but when it was being translated to stage rather than to screen. As said, the stage deserves recognition in its script whereas I don't really believe the film does. Musicals, for the most part, you have everything you really need and it's just asking the question of "how can I make this more cinematic with having the outside world at my disposal rather than being restricted to the stage?" It's more thinking of things in a technical regard rather than a story regard, if that makes sense? Since the story is there and it's just how to do it off the stage. That's why I really think other adapters deserve the recognition in that they have to deal with much stronger boundaries of what can and can not be done. A straight-rip, if you will, rather than an entirely new translation.

ADDING: That said, possibly 'Suddenly' nominated for new original song?

It's just the work thing kind of rubs me the wrong way if it gets nominated for adapted screenplay, I guess.

 

[Bim]

This been posted yet?

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2013/01/04/james-bond-oscars-to-feature-special-50th-anniversary-tribute/

Looking forward to it t:

 

[lime]

FINAL PREDICTIONS BEFORE THE NOMINATIONS in all categories except for Directing and Picture. I'm waiting on DGA before I finish those two.

 

[lime]

What time will DGA announce the nominations?

 

[Kane52630]

Honestly, after seeing it, I'm kinda baffled that Zero Dark Thirty is getting so much attention. It's a good movie don't get me wrong but I wouldn't put it next to films like Argo, Lincoln, or Life of Pi.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The fact that the Oscars will have a tribute to the cineamtic legacy of James Bond makes the likelihood of Skyfall getting nominated for Best Picture slightly better.

 

[danoyse]

Is the movie a straight-rip from broadway with just increased visual cues or have things dramatically changed, as in changing and shifting things around like others would need to do in adapting other sources? Musicals just seem to be the easiest form to translate because the same narrative restrictions aren't placed on it that are placed onto other sources. Most of it is already there other than exact visual cues. Really difficult to explain lol, and unsure if I'm doing it right. Just having adapted a musical and a novel, the musical was straight-forward whereas the novel was bound to certain structural changes.

I've seen the stage musical 9 times, the movie 3 times, and I've read the original Victor Hugo novel. It is not a "straight-rip" from the the stage version:

-The stage version opened with Valjean being released from a prison chain gang. On stage, the show opened with he and the other convincts swinging hammers, and Valjean was pushed forward when his name was called to face Javert, who gave him his parole papers. In the film, the convicts are now in the shipyards, in the water, pulling in a ship. Javert now first instructs Valjean to retrieve a waterlogged mast with a fallen French flag, which Valjean lifts demonstrating his superior strength. Valjean is released on parole, and the lyrics have been changed from the stage version.

-During the prologue on stage, Valjean is denied work and a room, because of his papers showing him to be a convict. The dialogue is entirely sung. The film uses entirely new dialogue (not sung) for those scenes, as well as new sequences where Valjean has his parole papers stamped by a judge, is beaten by police and attacked by children throwing rocks.

-After stealing from the Bishop, Valjean is captured and brought back to the Bishop. On stage, the dialogue is entirely sung. The film uses new spoken dialogue.

-On stage, Javert does not return to the story until after Fantine is arrested, when Valjean intervenes and orders she to be taken to a hospital instead (he calls two other men over to carry her off). Before Javert can argue, the accident with the cart happens, and Valjean saves the man by lifting the cart. Javert tells Valjean (dialogue is entirely sung) that Valjean's strength reminds him an escaped convict who was recently re-arrested and about to face trial. Valjean sings "Who Am I?" which ends with him bursting into the courtroom and revealing - to Javert, who is present in the courtroom - that he is Jean Valjean, and then runs off to the hospital. When they confront each other after Fantine dies, they fight, and Valjean knocks out Javert and runs. They do not meet again until the attempted robbery in Paris, 10 years later.

-In the film, Javert returns much earlier, as the new police inspector of the town of which Valjean is the mayor. They meet on reasonably friendly terms (Javert not recognizing Valjean), but they are interrupted by a cart accident outside. Valjean lifts the cart and saves the man - similar to the prisoner Valjean lifting the mast, and Javert suspects that the mayor is Valjean. He reports his suspicions, and which is when he learns that 'Valjean' has been re-arrested. Javert reports himself to Valjean for suspecting him, offers his resignation and asks Valjean to charge him for his disloyalty, which Valjean refuses. After Javert leaves, Valjean, knowing that the wrong man is about to go to jail, sings "Who Am I" and bursts into the courtroom, confessing to the judge, not Javert, who isn't there like he is in the stage version. He goes to the hospital, where Fantine dies, and instead of knocking Javert out during their confrontation, he jumps from a window and to the river to escape.

-On stage, Fantine fights with another factory woman over a note regarding her daughter. Valjean enters, breaks up the fight, and leaves the rest to the foreman. Fantine is fired, and this is when she sings "I Dreamed a Dream". Then she goes to the docks, where she sells her locket and her hair, and ultimately becomes a prostitute. She almost gets arrested, but is rescued by Valjean, who instructs a police officer to carry her to the hospital, where she dies.

-In the film, Fantine still has the fight and Valjean intervenes, but he leaves because he was distracted by the arrival of Javert. When Fantine is fired, in the film, she screams for Valjean to help her. She goes to the docks, sells her locket, her hair, her teeth, and becomes a prostitute. "I Dreamed a Dream" is now sung after she's with her first...customer. Valjean rescues her from being arrested, but he carries her to the hospital himself. Her death scene on stage had her singing deliriously to her absent daughter, the scene in the film now includes the little girl actually appearing to her behind a screen. All of her scenes have new lyrics and dialogue that were not in the stage version (like her locket containing a lock of Cosette's hair).

-Little Cosette admires a doll in a shop window, which wasn't in the stage version but was in the original novel, and has a rag that she uses for a pretend doll. Valjean buys her the doll (on stage, he had a doll in his bag that he gave to her, but that was its first appearance). Little Eponine is now part of the Master of the House scenes, when on stage she only appeared when Madame Thernardier was tormenting Cosette. Master of the House in the film now includes a drunken Santa.

-"Suddenly" is the new song. Yes, it's Oscar bait, but every movie musical adaptation does that (Dreamgirls had 3 new songs, for god's sake), so it shouldn't be a surprise here. And it is from a chapter in the book.

-In the stage version, Valjean takes Cosette from the Thernardiers, and they are last seen heading into Paris, Cosette in new dress and carrying a new doll. The story shifts into the Paris scenes, 10 years later. There's no run-in with Javert. In the film, Javert turns up just after Valjean takes Cosette, and there's a chase. Valjean and Cosette wind up at the convent, and given a place to hide by the groundskeeper - who turned out to be the man Valjean rescued from the fallen cart. Having lost Valjean again, Javert stands on a rooftop, sings "Stars" and the story shifts to the Paris scenes, nine years later. On stage, Javert doesn't sing "Stars" until Valjean escapes him after the attempted robbery in Paris.

-Marius' grandfather was not in the stage version, and there's no reference on stage that he's actually rich. The dialogue between him and Eponine in his flat is entirely new. Gavroche sings directly to the audience on stage, in the film his introduction is to a rich man in a carriage, with a gang of urchins following behind him. "Do You Hear the People Sing?" directly follows "Red & Black" on stage, with the students streaming into the streets to gain support for their rebellion. In the film it is sung later, at General Lamarque's funeral, as the start of their rebellion. Lamarque's funeral was referenced on stage, but never seen.

-The whole love triangle was done differently on stage: Eponine brought Marius to Cosette, but Marius was still there when her father's attempted robbery happened. He escaped just in time, but was there to overhear Valjean's plans to leave with Cosette. Marius is torn between following Cosette or joining his friends at the barricade, and ultimately goes to the barricade. Eponine follows him, dressed as a boy, and when Marius discovers her, he sends her off with a note to Cosette, which is intercepted by Valjean. Eponine sings "On My Own", and is shot and killed returning to the barricade.

-In the film, Marius has left by the time the attemped robbery happens, and never learns of Valjean's plans to leave with Cosette. Cosette leaves a note for Marius of their plans, which Eponine finds and reads. She's on her way to bring the note Marius, which is when she sings "On My Own". She decides to not give the note to Marius, and he returns to Cosette's house to find it deserted. Not knowing where she went, he runs off to the barricade. Eponine dresses as a boy and joins him, but when a soldier tries to shoot Marius, she pulls the rifle away and winds up being shot and killed. Before she dies, she finally gives Marius the note from Cosette and tells him she's sorry for hiding it from him. Marius writes his note to Cosette, and it's little Gavroche who brings the note that is intercepted by Valjean.

-On stage, there is only one barricade. The movie shows that there were barricades all over the city. Marius never tries blow up the barricade with a powder keg in the stage version. The French soldiers are never seen, and when the barricade falls, all of the students are killed on the barricade. In the film, the soldiers make it to the other side of the barricade, and are chased into the tavern, where most of them are killed. Enjolras and Grantaire are the last ones shot. Marius was shot and seemingly left behind, where in the stage version, Enjolras freaked out when Marius was shot and ran to the top of the barricade and started swinging the flag, where he was killed.

-When Gavroche went to the collect the ammunition, he took a bag with him that he filled with the ammunition. When he was shot, and it was clear he wouldn't make it back, he threw the ammunition bag back over the barricade, started singing in the direction of the shots, and was killed. In the film, he's holding all of the ammo and reaching for more when he is killed. On stage, his body stayed where it was, in the film, the students ran out and carried him back over the barricade. The soliders who shot him looked horrified about killing him, where in the show we never saw the soldiers. Javert pinning his medal on Gavroche's body was not in the stage version.

-When Valjean is dying, Fantine appears to tell him his sins are forgiven and that he will go into heaven. On stage, Eponine also appears, reaching out her hand to lead him away. In the film, Eponine does not appear, since in the film, she and Valjean never met. After Valjean dies in the film, he is met instead by the Bishop, who saved him all of those years ago, to lead him to heaven, where he finds everyone who died at the barricade.

So, no. Not a "straight-rip" from the stage musical at all. Songs are shifted to different places, the plotlines of several of the characters are changed, new locations are introduced that weren't in the stage version,, and lot of stuff from the original novel that didn't happen on stage was included. There's new dialogue, changes to existing songs, and not just the new obvious Oscar-bait song, there's entirely new sung dialogue.

It definitely can fall under adapted screenplay.

 

[danoyse]

Then, yeah, I just don't see it being nominated. Not to intend anything or at least don't think it deserves to in regards to it script. The musical itself deserves recognition, but not the film for the script. Might seem off topic, but stay with me - I translated the 'American Idiot' musical to cinematic form (possible to get acquired due to contacts) - which required basically everything except for the plot and moments to be re-invented including new musical numbers (there's basically no scenery changes or props in the show, it's classic black box theatre) - and it was still the easiest script I've ever written. Basically because everything is already there and it was just my job to offer as direct a translation as I could.

Honestly, if adapting American Idiot was that easy for you, I'm going to guess that you probably didn't do a very good job with it. I saw American Idiot on Broadway four times. It was great. It was even more fun when Billie Joe Armstrong was playing St. Jimmy.

But...seriously, that show had no cohesive narrative. You could string together a plot from the songs used in the show, but the show itself barely had a plot. It ultimately flopped on Broadway because beyond fans of the album, nobody else could figure out what is about, except 3 slackers screaming Green Day music for an hour and a half.

I'd love to see a movie version of it, because the music is great, but whoever adapts it as a film has to give it a story that makes much more sense than what went on onstage. That show lived on visuals, but they won't work on film. And there really is a great story there, but it needs an amazing writer who can find it, and bring it out.

If all you did was translate it from what it was, it won't work.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Well, compared to most of what I've done it was the easiest. But also I'm 24, have friends who were stuck at home, had a friend go off to war, and I was the city guy who went to LA and fell into the drug and alcohol scene due to the temptations around me. I bounced back, as did all of my friends, but the first time I watched the play it all struck home for me because it all struck true to my own journey. I had to radically change a lot of the scenery because it was basically black box theater, I added an antagonist (Christian), and included about five new songs, as well as some more dialog (that said, dialog takes up five minutes tops of a possibly 2 hr film (the musical is about 90 minutes)). So it's different, but still for the most part it was all there for me the first time I saw it- albeit I entered with similar background history. Dream director- Samuel Bayer. Got an indirect yet direct connection into Playtone, so it is possible that it may go somewhere. There are tons of inspirations from the music videos over the years as well.

One big example is EXTRAORDINARY GIRL. It was basically just Tunny and Extraordinary Girl floating around on stage. Here it's a montage showing the journey of Tunny's recovery. There are other scenes like that which are surreal and brought more into a grounded context.

And seeing that much changed (Les Mis), yeah it's adapted.

 

[Bruce Malone]

The fact that the Oscars will have a tribute to the cineamtic legacy of James Bond makes the likelihood of Skyfall getting nominated for Best Picture slightly better.

Not necessarily. The academy voters have nothing to with the actual planning of the oscar telecast.

However there is no doubt skyfall has benefited from the larger 50th anniversary of bond sentiment.

 

[danoyse]

Well, compared to most of what I've done it was the easiest. But also I'm 24, have friends who were stuck at home, had a friend go off to war, and I was the city guy who went to LA and fell into the drug and alcohol scene due to the temptations around me. I bounced back, as did all of my friends, but the first time I watched the play it all struck home for me because it all struck true to my own journey. I had to radically change a lot of the scenery because it was basically black box theater, I added an antagonist (Christian), and included about five new songs, as well as some more dialog (that said, dialog takes up five minutes tops of a possibly 2 hr film). So it's different, but still for the most part it was all there for me the first time I saw it- albeit I entered with similar background history.

It wasn't black box theater. Black box theater means a simple, low-cost set with virtually no scenery. American Idiot was like a multi-media explosion - the stage was covered in punk posters, TV screens and projections on the walls (not to mention a car dangling from the ceiling), and they had characters flying high-speed across the stage. There was an Iraq war scene, complete with explosions.

Everyone knew characters like the ones in the show. In fact, I would argue that it would be better written by an older writer with the years in between to look back at that period in your life and see the mistakes even clearer. The band wrote the album in their 30s. Just knowing characters like the ones in the show doesn't mean you can pull a coherent plot out of that, at least not one that has the meaning it was intended to have...especially if you're saying it was easy to do.

 

[danoyse]

And seeing that much changed (Les Mis), yeah it's adapted.

Yup, it was. Sometimes the best experience is actually seeing the film and the original, not just making a guess.

 

[danoyse]

One big example is EXTRAORDINARY GIRL. It was basically just Tunny and Extraordinary Girl floating around on stage. Here it's a montage showing the journey of Tunny's recovery. There are other scenes like that which are surreal and brought more into a grounded context.

But it did have a grounded context. They weren't just floating around the stage. He was falling, she caught him.

 

[Ultimatehero]

With all the material at my disposal, it was relatively easy. But basically because it was more of a personal tale along with everything else at my disposal - the music videos I used for a lot of inspiration as well.

I've always seen black box as theater without props really are very minimalistic. For example the bus in Holiday was more of a box rather than a bus. Also whereas all the musicals I've seen the location props change to establish setting, here it always remained the same except for a mattress and sofa.

I really can't say a lot other than I headed in to not only make it the best film version, but an ultimate Green Day experience as well.

 

[danoyse]

With all the material at my disposal, it was relatively easy. But basically because it was more of a personal tale along with everything else at my disposal - the music videos I used for a lot of inspiration as well.

I've always seen black box as theater without props really are very minimalistic. For example the bus in Holiday was more of a box rather than a bus. Also whereas all the musicals I've seen the location props change to establish setting, here it always remained the same except for a mattress and sofa.

I really can't say a lot other than I headed in to not only make it the best film version, but an ultimate Green Day experience as well.

Black box theater isn't your own definition, it's an actual definition of minimalist theater (often with literally black floors and walls) with little scenery, performed in a small space. The bus in American Idiot wasn't a box or a bus...it was an overturned scaffolding with video projections running behind it so it looked like it was riding down a highway. When it goes into the 'representative from Jingletown' speech, they run post 9/11 imagery to go along with it, not to mention the overamplified Green Day music.

It really blew the whole minimalist aspect of the piece out of the equation.

 

[Ultimatehero]

But it did have a grounded context. They weren't just floating around the stage. He was falling, she caught him.

Correct. However that worked wonderfully for the stage whereas on film it would probably lose part of the spectacle of it.

Thus the need to go after a more grounded, no pun intended, approach. Of Tunny psychologically falling apart and Extraordinary Girl nursing him back to health rather than a high-wire number. Looking at the actual implications of what's happened to these soldiers.

The American Idiot number itself is dancing around an open area subject really to one's interpretation of where it is and what's going on. Thereby, in a way, one person's take on the film - at large - would be different from another person's take on it despite having the same character journeys because a lot of numbers are left purely up to the audience's imaginations of where it is and how the scenery changes.

I can say, if I'm able to get it past the censors, the opening is of the twin towers collapsing as well as people jumping to their deaths. To me that's the only way to open it up. So the whole multiple TVs and placing the audience back in that time mind-set is the heart and back-bone of everything that comes after it.

I still think of it as minimalist. The stage never changed, the props changed and objects became other objects with one's imagination - but comparing it to other broadway productions it had a lot less scenery changes.

As per the needing to be older thing, to me it's just about having a personal connection - look at Goodwill Hunting, Damon and Affleck didn't need to be years older, they just wrote what they knew when they were 24/25. If you're a good writer, which I wouldn't be where I am today without that, age doesn't really matter.

The key thing is - ENERGY - on stage they had that with the music and everything going haywire. With film you have that in pacing and keeping everything going at a break-neck speed. Although costly the film switches locations every other minute maximum, sometimes we're in five locations given one given minute. It's fast, lol. But - my take on it is - if you apply the same budgetary knowledge you would towards a music video it shouldn't equate that much either.

 

[kvz5]

Spielberg, Lee awesome, Hooper, Bigelow, and Affleck got the DGA nods.

Somewhere Weinstein is throwing a hissy fit. :P All his horses (Russell, Tarantino, Anderson) were snubbed.

 

[danoyse]

Correct. However that worked wonderfully for the stage whereas on film it would probably lose part of the spectacle of it.

Thus the need to go after a more grounded, no pun intended, approach. Of Tunny psychologically falling apart and Extraordinary Girl nursing him back to health rather than a high-wire number. Looking at the actual implications of what's happened to these soldiers.

The American Idiot number itself is dancing around an open area subject really to one's mind of what's going on and where it's going on. Thereby, in a way, one person's take on the film - at large - would be different from another person's take on it despite having the same character journeys because a lot of numbers are left purely up to the audience's imaginations.

I can say, if I'm able to get it past the censors, the opening is of the twin towers collapsing as well as people jumping to their deaths. To me that's the only way to open it up.

I still think of it as minimalist. The stage never changed, the props changed and objects became other objects with one's imagination - but comparing it to other broadway productions it had a lot less scenery changes.

As per the needing to be older thing, to me it's just about having a personal connection - look at Goodwill Hunting, Damon and Affleck didn't need to be years older, they just wrote what they knew when they were 24/25.

Except that American Idiot isn't about 9/11. It takes place in the post-9/11 Bush era (2004, according the Playbill notes), but the show makes no direct reference to the 9/11 attacks. "Wake Me Up When September Ends" was written by Billie Joe Armstrong about the death of his father, who died in September of 1982. Johnny blames his problems on a broken family, not a terrorist attack. Putting in a shock-value shot of the WTC attack serves no purpose, and by doing that you've just anchored a story around an event instead of the characters. It doesn't work.

Of course you can't have characters flying around like they did on stage, but the scene had a point. What you're talking about changing it to isn't "grounded," it's obvious...and boring.

How many Broadway shows have you actually seen? American Idiot was not minimalist - the projections and the sound saw to that. The stage did change. It was Johnny's bedroom, it was a 7/11 parking lot (they even had the parking lot lines lit on the stage), it was Iraq, it was a nightclub, it was a hospital, it was an office. Honestly, most stage productions do the same kind of setwork.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

tarantino isn't a member of the DGA, so he will never be nominated.

 

[danoyse]

tarantino isn't a member of the DGA, so he will never be nominated.

Wasn't he nominated for Inglorious Basterds?

 

[Liam_H]

Honestly, after seeing it, I'm kinda baffled that Zero Dark Thirty is getting so much attention. It's a good movie don't get me wrong but I wouldn't put it next to films like Argo, Lincoln, or Life of Pi.

Haven't seen Life of Pi but I would certainly rank it up there with the first two.

 

[Ultimatehero]

American Idiot takes place in the world that came after 9/11, and 2004 is correct. Nowhere did I say Johnny places his problems on the terrorist attacks. Do you know who the American Idiot is and about the history of the album itself? What it was responding to? George Bush even tried to ban Green Day's songs from playing on the radio because of its political message. The way Bush went about things at every turn - it turned many away from politics and made people hate the government in the same way that Nixon did. At least Nixon apologized for turning out a whole generation who will probably never trust politics, Bush merely laughed and said "my bad." I'd love for someone to tar and feather him, seriously. And - this script would be called controversial similarly because not that much time seems to have passed in retrospect. One friend called me an anarchist for hating on Bush lol.

As per Johnny - dude, I'm a guy who ran away to LA for fortune and fame, got lost in drugs and alcohol, formed a new identity practically telling people to call me by my birth name (I'm adopted), and have been more than once been called out for using my biological parents as an excuse. Basically developing my own St. Jimmy.

I would say, while yes - it is obvious - surrealistic moments are thrown into other areas. Specifically Know Your Enemy which combines imagery from every music video and piece of art ever done. Whereas with the Extraordinary Girl number, I chose to go with the more simplistic and dramatic so that the following reprise from that can build. Also it takes place over several weeks - not just an hour, one location, but an actual story that reflects the song. As said every number is kind of an elaborate music video in that we never stay in one environment for too long. It's always on the move. Granted, that might seem costly, but my point of reference is - if you can do that at a low cost in a music video, if the same budgetary techniques are applied to the film - you can have that constant rush of energy and seemingly endless vibe as well.

Mainly the bigger productions. I'm used to the cardboard swiveling and stage-hands constantly moving them or machines moving them kinds of productions.