A breakdown of the Ironman/Spiderman relationship

LadyMoira

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Ostensibly the two main figures of the Civil War are Captain America and Tony Stark the two charismatic heroes who stand on opposite sides of an ideological divide they cannot bridge. Certainly their battles have been central to the story so far; but the real tension and not just in the Spiderman books but for fans has been the relationship between Tony Stark and his protege Peter Parker which has led inevitably to Spidey's switching sides. For the whole course of CW readers have been waiting to see the Stark/Parker confrontation and battle far more than the altercations between Tony and Steve; the moment when (in true comic book tradition,) these two former friends became bitter enemies is (judging from this board at least,) considered the pivotal point of the whole series and what made ASM #535 the most eagerly sought issue of ASM in a long time and what makes the next issue as well sure to be a sellout. Since this dynamic has been so central not just to Spiderman comics, to CW comics, but also quite possibly to the post CW-future of the universe I thought it deserved it's own thread...particularly seeing as how I have a LOT to say about it. So here goes.

Peter's; A Young Jedi Searching for an Obi-Wan

Let's take a look at Peter's background for a minute; he was a scrawny child orphaned at a young age, raised by a doting but over-protective aunt in Queens and his heroic working class uncle who was for all intents and purposes Pete's father. The uncle dies prematurely leaving Peter still just an adolescent without the paternal influence in his life anymore and with a truckload of guilt. Everything he does as to become a superhero he has to do from scratch without any guidance from anyone else; no professor Xavier, no fellow astronauts to consult with, not even any lost recordings of an alien daddy. He has to find his own way all by himself. In the meantime he continues to be a superhero while having trouble paying his bills, keeping his grades up, and of course being blasted by the press. Years later he starts to gain a mentor of sorts in Captain Stacy who sadly also dies prematurely in a way that makes Pete feel guilty. So does Gwen. In fact his whole youth is a string of horrible painful experiences with the only bright spot being his marriage to MJ but generally recieving no kind of support system for his heroism. In fact he's often attacked for it something which might make him leery of further being in the limelight when he can possibly avoid it and is not called upon by responsibility. He has a great head for science; he did design web-shooters when he was only 15; but sadly economic realities and lack of time due to web-slinging don't give him many chances to get to the lab. At some point though, he still doesn't get much praise from the general public he does become friendly with other members of the super-human community including none other than Ironman; here is a hero whose exploits, (unlike Peter are usually based on local threats in New York,) are on a global and even inter-galactic scale and is a leader of one of the most powerful and respected teams in the world. The man behind the armor is a pretty magnetic and impressive presence as well; a billionaire industrialist, shrewd political player, and probably most impressively to Pete one of the most scientific brains on earth. And remarkably this person shows a keen interest and admiration for Peter which must have been a head trip for a boy from Queens to be brought into the superhero elite like this. Moreover this individual helps out in a lot of tangible other ways; he offers Pete and his family a home, he helps Pete out of trouble, he designs a new helpful suit...the list goes on and on. It's all a bit overwhelming but still the guy seems to just be trying to be kind and in the meantime Pete's found someone else willing to be a father to him and whose advice as a more experienced superhero he's more than willing to ask for especially when dealing with some very unexpected and troubling new implications to his abilities. This superhero also has the backing of the federal government behind him as well and seems to always be three steps ahead of everyone else. It's not surprising then that Pete would his judgement and moreover feel quite personally loyal to someone who's been such a good friend to him. But loyalty has limits; Pete was always ambivalent about SHRA but coaxed by Aunt May, (who just wants the rest of the world to appreciate her precious adopted son for all he's done,) and Tony he reasons that he should enforce the law at least until a better solution is found. But Goliath's death at the hands of a clone shocks him; he never dreamed that this would turn bloody Tony told him that he had it under control. As the full implications of SHRA are finally revealed to him he of course switches over to the right side; all the while being angry with himself not simply for being wrong about registration but for misjudging Tony who is now his enemy on an all new personal level. During ASM #535 he and Tony looked like two pit bulls the way they were staring at each other sometimes, and the way he called Tony "dad" at the end makes it clear that to Peter's mind Tony has been the bad paternal figure who has in fact betrayed him. Peter's had plenty of other enemies he's had baggage with before and hated personally; but I don't think he's ever had an opponent his feelings have been quite this..complicated about before.

Tony; A King in Need of a Heir

Just as Tony wouldn't be nearly so dangerous in CW right now if he didn't believe he was in the right, his manipulation and influence over Peter would never have been so effective or so potentially dangerous if Ironman hadn't genuinely liked the guy. People have suggested Peter was naive in accepting Tony's gifts and that Tony was playing him all along; to a certain extent that's true but Peter was right in his assessment that Tony really was trying to be nice to him and even become friends with him. It's worth noting that for all his success in life and all his romantic conquests, Ironman is actually in many ways a far more lonely figure than Spiderman is; he has no family; his "relationships" are more like conquests, and he notably has trouble maintaining close friendships. E.g. Jim Rhodes. His telling Pete that he looks upon him, Aunt May, and M.J as family was manipulation on one level but sincere on another. In fact I think Tony has trouble separating a sincere desire to help from manipulating Peter since to Tony's mind he's only accumulating more into to "help" Peter, and really he might know better than Peter does sometimes what's in Spidey's best interests hence giving Peter the suit he rigs up so that it can also spy on him. Tony in many ways has all the trappings of royalty in the superhero community, (and even diehard Ironman fans will admit he certainly acts like it,) but building an empire isn't much fun without someone by your side to perhaps carry on after you. Cap and Mr. Fantastic have developed quite fine on their own without carrying on in Tony's footsteps; various other young Avengers or Runaways simply aren't suitable for the role of protege either...but Peter, significantly younger than Tony, extremely idealistic, a keen scientific mind, and considerable super-powers...Pete's practically made for the role. But of course Tony sees certain "drawbacks" about Pete besides the famous motormouth; Pete's incredibly decent and compassionate which Tony admires to an extent but also finds to be potential liability. (Pete not bringing Hulk back to the Avengers and giving up a potential spot on that prestigious roster simply he felt sorry for Big Green is something Tony would never be able to really understand.) CW Files made it clear that Tony found it frusterating that Pete hasn't tried to seize the prominence or glory of Avengers type heroes despite having the potential to do so; and that leads me to another way Tony tries to do what's "best" for Peter whether Jr. likes it or not; the more I think about it the more I think Tony's insistence on Peter unmasking wasn't just about sending a message to other heroes; after all they could have gotten almost as good an effect just by Spiderman in mask giving interviews supporting registration and touting how the government was protecting his identity for the safety of his loved ones. I think Tony wanted it to be impossible for Peter to continue being a high-school teacher and free-lance photographer; he saw unmasking as a way to throw Peter into the spotlight and make mundane life impossible for him thus clearing him to more of a FF or Avengers style hero; and of course drawing him closer to Tony. Just like giving Peter a fancy souped up suit that even has the same friggin' color scheme as Tony's armor; Peter's his new heir and has to start acting like it. (This might have all been unconscious to some extent on Tony's part but I think it was there.) This is one reason for the tension in ASM #535; to Tony Peter's throwing all his attempts to make him the Prince to his grand 50 state initiative in his face; furthermore there's a defensiveness to it as well. If Tony has managed to alienate the person who is most loyal to him, who has sacrificed the most for him with that unmasking, and is furthermore one of the honest and kind-hearted individuals in New York then what does that say about Tony's present course of action? Ergo Tony lashes out at Peter for "forgetting which side he's on," because he doesn't want to go down the path that question might take him.


The Future

It occured to me at some point that when the dust settles over CW there will be plenty of losses all around; Reed has had his family shattered, Cap's a fugitive, and Spiderman's cover is blown. Peter because of all this has effectively had his life as he knew it finished; he can't be a teacher again, he can't be a photographer, and he may have to separate from his loved ones for their own safety. And he will feel betrayed by his "dad." But strangely enough in some ways I think Ironman might be the one I pity more. In a way Tony Stark might end up the biggest loser of all; public sentiment might very well turn against SHRA, if and when anything goes wrong with the cloning program and/or supervillain bloodhound program Tony might well end up being the government's scapegoat, and of course he's alienated at least half the super-human community already and is well on his way to alienating the other half. And of course Tony will have lost Peter's friendship and given my previous analysis that might just hurt the worst of all. Moreover, Tony really did think he was trying to do good and when the enormity of his crimes sinks in I think he is going to be beset by a lot of loneliness and regret; and despite the fact he's brought it all on himself, god help me I can't help but pity him a little bit.
 
Peter's a thirty year old man (give or take a few years), he should be over this "looking for a dad" crap.
 
I'd say anyone who isn't upset by the events of Civil War, thus far, isn't a true Spidey fan.
 
Upset Spideyfan said:
Peter's a thirty year old man (give or take a few years), he should be over this "looking for a dad" crap.


If people were perfectly rational, yes, he should. But an emotional lack (I can't think of a better word) can affect a person throughout their life.

And thanks, LadyMoira, for presenting a thorough and interesting analysis of Peter & Tony's relationship.
 
Upset Spideyfan said:
Peter's a thirty year old man (give or take a few years), he should be over this "looking for a dad" crap.

There is a school of thought that one never truly completly matures past the age of a traumatic experience in this case it would be the death of Ben Parker especially when one thinks that the event was in fact their own fault.
 
There is a school of thought that one never truly completly matures past the age of a traumatic experience in this case it would be the death of Ben Parker especially when one thinks that the event was in fact their own fault.

And then it was followed by a bunch of other traumatic events; Captain Stacy, Gwen, the miscarriage, dying and coming back...sometimes I think we have to give Peter credit for even being able to get out of bed each morning. I think since tragedy has followed Peter so consistently in his career it's one reason he tries to avoid leadership roles because he's afraid he might end up being some kind of jinx to the team he would lead.
 
Upset Spideyfan said:
Peter's a thirty year old man (give or take a few years), he should be over this "looking for a dad" crap.

I argee, by now Peter should realize all his father figures aren't the best people.
 
Nice article, LadyMoira, and very insightful; while I'd spotted the signs of Peter looking toward Tony as a mentor and father-figure, I hadn't considered the other angle (Tony looking for an heir) and that definitely gives food for thought.
 
Caliber said:
I argee, by now Peter should realize all his father figures aren't the best people.

Uncle Ben? Captain Stacy?
 
Nice article, LadyMoira, and very insightful; while I'd spotted the signs of Peter looking toward Tony as a mentor and father-figure, I hadn't considered the other angle (Tony looking for an heir) and that definitely gives food for thought.

Yeah, the fact he gave Peter the same kind of look as him with the new costume really suggests to me that Tony is trying to mold Peter into his image and Tony, (whatever else you can say about him,) is always a man looking to the future.
 
I would hardly say Peter Parker is looking for another father figure, Tony Stark is not even 40 years old yet. I mean yes Tony stark is a mechanical genuis, some one Spider-man has admired for years. Tony much like Peter parker is not a perfect human being at all, and unlike captain america, they both haven't always been american heroes[they still aren't] or whatever captain america is. Peter and Tony have both lost it all, and gained it back, only to lose it all again, but they both have still been heroes throughout all this. so Peter obvioulsy can relate on a personal level to his mentor Tony. Lets face it Captain America basically has ideals that not longer are relevant in todays world or yesterdays. Where was his ideals when america dromped the A bomb on an innocent japanese city, so we could end world war 2? Im sure if he had no problem with that, being registered should be easy.
 
Eros said:
I would hardly say Peter Parker is looking for another father figure, Tony Stark is not even 40 years old yet. I mean yes Tony stark is a mechanical genuis, some one Spider-man has admired for years. Tony much like Peter parker is not a perfect human being at all, and unlike captain america, they both haven't always been american heroes[they still aren't] or whatever captain america is. Peter and Tony have both lost it all, and gained it back, only to lose it all again, but they both have still been heroes throughout all this. so Peter obvioulsy can relate on a personal level to his mentor Tony. Lets face it Captain America basically has ideals that not longer are relevant in todays world or yesterdays. Where was his ideals when america dromped the A bomb on an innocent japanese city, so we could end world war 2? Im sure if he had no problem with that, being registered should be easy.

I'm pretty sure Cap was "on ice" by the time the atomic bombs were dropped. How he might have reacted to the idea is fodder for a What If?
 
LadyMoira said:
...sometimes I think we have to give Peter credit for even being able to get out of bed each morning.

I know....considering he has one nice piece of ass laying next to him every night, I'm surprised he gets out of bed, too.

....in fact, I bet he gets up before he gets out.
 
Let us start from the get go.

So much more attractive of a post it would have been had it been sans Star Wars. (The following even in Europe is enough to make me wish I had accepted the idea of working on a large scale bomb capable of wiping out ecosystems.) But extremely insightful. A little grabby, but very accurate in most terms. Basically what we've all been saying, put into one, easy to read post. I thoroughly enjoyed it. The Tony/Peter thing has been something you and I have pointed to in the past, but was rather well put out, if not just a little bit of a stretch in a few areas. (The spying suit.) But rather well said regardless, as it inspires much thought.

I enjoyed how you put Iron Man in a light a few have been trying to hint at as being the hero of the lonely course. The person who must sell his soul to do what's right. (People always love characters like that, and relate to them easily, when there's clear lines drawn.) And I agree that he stands the most to lose, but it's not like this is his first time around the table of pure loss, and it most definitely will not be his second. He's the rags to riches to rags man, with the emotional trauma similar to Pete's, having only glimpses of good friendships and relationships, only to usually have them explode in his face, where Pete kind of has a stable family base. Pete has a life centered around his family and superheroics, where all Stark has is a company that is meant to help the world, and Iron Man. However, I only agree that Stark is doing a small thing to help Peter mainly out of a genuine desire to give Pete what Stark himself never really had, and that was a family member who could help him too. Stark's been there, where he could wish a friend was there to just pull his ass out of the fire, and while it has happened, it's never something that's a more...permanant thing. And I could easily see him wanting to be that stable handle in Pete's life. However, Tony, being the Class A to Class S he is, does things that contradict his emotional state, and does crazy things, like betray that trust Pete has in him. (Though, one could say it's for good reasons). Genius types never do normal things. Have extreme exaggerated emotional patterns, and "illogical" thought patterns. (Though, they're ACTUALLY very logical, just very inhuman thought patterns.)


And the whole Stark as a father figure cannot be because of his age bit? Doesn't work. Father figures can even be YOUNGER than the "son" in several cases. It's just the person Pete was looking up to.


Either way, awesome post.
 
In retrospect I suppose the whole Jedi master/apprentice thing is a wee bit overused in today's culture, and I wish I'd come up with a better metaphor.

And I agree that he stands the most to lose, but it's not like this is his first time around the table of pure loss, and it most definitely will not be his second. He's the rags to riches to rags man, with the emotional trauma similar to Pete's, having only glimpses of good friendships and relationships, only to usually have them explode in his face, where Pete kind of has a stable family base. Pete has a life centered around his family and superheroics, where all Stark has is a company that is meant to help the world, and Iron Man. However, I only agree that Stark is doing a small thing to help Peter mainly out of a genuine desire to give Pete what Stark himself never really had, and that was a family member who could help him too. Stark's been there, where he could wish a friend was there to just pull his ass out of the fire, and while it has happened, it's never something that's a more...permanant thing. And I could easily see him wanting to be that stable handle in Pete's life. However, Tony, being the Class A to Class S he is, does things that contradict his emotional state, and does crazy things, like betray that trust Pete has in him. (Though, one could say it's for good reasons). Genius types never do normal things. Have extreme exaggerated emotional patterns, and "illogical" thought patterns. (Though, they're ACTUALLY very logical, just very inhuman thought patterns.)

Interesting take on it Mistress Gluon. (I agree that Pete's family life in some ways is more stable; he always has dear old Aunt May to think about and his lovely wife as well.) Sometimes I think that Tony is both gifted and cursed to some extent by his prodigous intellect. It allows him to do so much but at the same time it would be frusterating to have everyone else be two steps behind you and most of the general population might seem like a different species to you which can be isolating. Moreover, Tony's awareness of his own brilliance and magnetism feeds his biggest weakness which is not really alcoholism but arrogance. (He admitted as much himself in CW files.) When you're so often ahead of the curve of everyone else you might very well get into the habit of thinking you know better than better everyone else, that you never need any advice, that you know what's best for people even if they don't, and that you can calculate and control every contingency in inherently unpredictable and uncontrollable situations like say...cloning thunder gods or using super-villain bloodhounds. It's obviously a really bad idea and surely Tony should be smart enough enough to see that; unfortunately in this case Tony's smart enough to be stupid; he thinks he's got it all figured out well enough that he can maintain control of such programs. Tony is the poster child for ancient Greek tragedy where hubris played such a big role.

And the whole Stark as a father figure cannot be because of his age bit? Doesn't work. Father figures can even be YOUNGER than the "son" in several cases. It's just the person Pete was looking up to.

Well put. Tony's the leader of the Avengers and great hero type Peter automatically esteems as well as someone whose business and scientific achievements Spidey was bound to respect too. It's also why even though, Peter isn't that much chronologically younger than Tony, Tony sees him in an almost paternal light; Peter is the more naive and far less worldly of the two who Tony sincerely wants to help educate and instintively feels protective toward. Whether Tony's brand of education or protection is neccessary or even desirable for Peter is a whole different question.
 
LadyMoira said:
In retrospect I suppose the whole Jedi master/apprentice thing is a wee bit overused in today's culture, and I wish I'd come up with a better metaphor.

Nah, Star Wars is just overused in general. In my opinion at least. I want more Battlestar Galactica references. It was a joke anyway.



LadyMoira said:
Interesting take on it Mistress Gluon. (I agree that Pete's family life in some ways is more stable; he always has dear old Aunt May to think about and his lovely wife as well.) Sometimes I think that Tony is both gifted and cursed to some extent by his prodigous intellect. It allows him to do so much but at the same time it would be frusterating to have everyone else be two steps behind you and most of the general population might seem like a different species to you which can be isolating. Moreover, Tony's awareness of his own brilliance and magnetism feeds his biggest weakness which is not really alcoholism but arrogance. (He admitted as much himself in CW files.) When you're so often ahead of the curve of everyone else you might very well get into the habit of thinking you know better than better everyone else, that you never need any advice, that you know what's best for people even if they don't, and that you can calculate and control every contingency in inherently unpredictable and uncontrollable situations like say...cloning thunder gods or using super-villain bloodhounds. It's obviously a really bad idea and surely Tony should be smart enough enough to see that; unfortunately in this case Tony's smart enough to be stupid; he thinks he's got it all figured out well enough that he can maintain control of such programs. Tony is the poster child for ancient Greek tragedy where hubris played such a big role.

You have it right. The higher the intelligence, the higher the burden and distraught. Several higher IQ's simply desire suicide statistically. They feel detracted from humans. They don't see themselves as normal, or they don't see others as normal. This is the arrogance piece. Tony doesn't see others as knowing enough, where his mind is just USED to calculating everything out for him. Automatic statistic function. All IQ's of 160 up have them, so to speak. They all do things second nature, where "regular" humans have to work hard at things. And it's sad, because higher IQ's tend to notice this, and separate themselves so they don't hurt others, or hurt themselves. Several genius' believe that if they actually DO think about things, their insight is usually ahead of the curve, and for the most part it is. but this is where it hurts them. Genius' at high levels lack most, and usually all, social skills, and humanitarian thought patterns.



However, this all leads to the way Reed and Tony does things. Remember how I said genius' simply just concoct ideas to do something simply and efficiently, and that genius levels don't take into consideration human efforts? Genius' don't consider humanitarinism. Numbers have no value, if a number has value, then you can't alter it, and it's stuck in a system. Doesn't make sense to them, and probably never will. They simply want something that will attain an end quickly, and usually science doesn't care for humans. So they're basically the slave of their own minds, and are the victims of their own genius, like you said.

Good points all around.


LadyMoira said:
Well put. Tony's the leader of the Avengers and great hero type Peter automatically esteems as well as someone whose business and scientific achievements Spidey was bound to respect too. It's also why even though, Peter isn't that much chronologically younger than Tony, Tony sees him in an almost paternal light; Peter is the more naive and far less worldly of the two who Tony sincerely wants to help educate and instintively feels protective toward. Whether Tony's brand of education or protection is neccessary or even desirable for Peter is a whole different question.

I think that Pete simply sees in Tony what he himself would like. Like a son sees his father or mother, or daughter sees father or mother.
 
Bah! You're all wrong! Tony and Peter are both gay and they had off panel sex. :o
Just kidding! Anyway, while I do believe Stark wanted an heir, I don't think he truly trusted Peter. Why? Cuase he had the suit gizmod so that he knows what goes in and out as far as info. That's why he attacked Peter so quickly cuase he knew Petey would betray him. Man! I dropped some serious comic knowledge then! :o
 
Docker said:
Just kidding! Anyway, while I do believe Stark wanted an heir, I don't think he truly trusted Peter. Why? Cuase he had the suit gizmod so that he knows what goes in and out as far as info. That's why he attacked Peter so quickly cuase he knew Petey would betray him. Man! I dropped some serious comic knowledge then! :o

I'm no Iron Man expert, so anyone feel free to correct me, but isn't Stark a bit of a control freak? As such he would have bugged Peter's new suit no matter how much he trusted Peter...
 
That's the thing: if he REALLY wanted Peter as an heir, why would he bug the suit? OR was he really playing Petey by makin Petey think he would be like a father figure to him and really never had the plans at all. Just to get backing for the SHRA, which is why he him unmask on national tv in the first place instead of, let's say Warbird.
 
I'm no Iron Man expert, so anyone feel free to correct me, but isn't Stark a bit of a control freak? As such he would have bugged Peter's new suit no matter how much he trusted Peter...

Exactly. It's also why he would store Thor's dna sample on file from the very first and why he would do anything...Tony just looks at it as being prepared for all contingencies; he doesn't realize how other people would see it as an infringement on their own privacy and rights.
 
LadyMoira said:
Exactly. It's also why he would store Thor's dna sample on file from the very first and why he would do anything...Tony just looks at it as being prepared for all contingencies; he doesn't realize how other people would see it as an infringement on their own privacy and rights.

Cloning Thor is a wee bit much, no? But fine, if that's the route he's going, why stop there? Surely, he has DNA samples of his other teammates as well, particularly Captain America. Why not create a cloned Steve Rogers to be the 'real' Captain America and Pro-SHRA to boot. That would demoralize the resistance... hell, why stop there? An army of Steve Rogers clones to act as Darth Iron Man's stormtroopers and crush the rebellion once and for all--MUAHAHAHA!!! ugh...:whatever: ... but really is that any worse than hiring a team of the most ruthless, treacherous bounty hunters in the galaxy [read: SUPERVILLAINS] to hunt down the resistance?

I'm thinking the Iron Man in this story is a clone himself... a twisted version of the real Tony Stark who's locked away deep in the bowels of the Deathstar... er, Negative Zone prison.
 
Parker said:
I'd say anyone who isn't upset by the events of Civil War, thus far, is an idiot, or just liked pretty pictures.


Fixated!
 
Upset Spideyfan said:
Peter's a thirty year old man (give or take a few years), he should be over this "looking for a dad" crap.

The end. Argument over.
 
Oh, and the simple fact that people have to bend over backwards to rationalize any of the HORRID characterizations at ALL means that it's really wrong and horrid.

Good change and interesting stories are just taken in stride.
 
Upset Spideyfan said:
Peter's a thirty year old man (give or take a few years), he should be over this "looking for a dad" crap.


Though i don't think he is as much tony's b**** as most on these boards this is exactly correct, I cringed when he said the "father" nonsense.



Doc Destruction said:
Good change and interesting stories are just taken in stride.

Not true in the slightest if you look over the history of any form of art.

Not true in the slightest.
 

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