Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by skaldicpoet9, Sep 21, 2013.
Superman coming across as Robin?
When did Robin gain the power to fly and melt metal with his eyes?
It's Superman coming across as Robin, no Robin getting across as Superman.
People on this thread depress me. They really know how to suck the fun out of everything with their knee-jerk extreme pessimism.
I feel the same about the executives' decisions.
I could say the opposite thing about the other side. You really know how to absorb the fun from everything with your "knee-jerk extreme optimism".
If you're getting annoyed by the amount of "pessimism" here, best way to get rid of that is to defend the opposing argument. Explain why you think what they're doing is a good idea, why it won't result in either Superman or Batman looking bad, and why it won't change the Batman/Superman dynamic for the worse. If your arguments are convincing enough, more people will warm up to the idea and the "pessimism" will die down.
Plus, what "knee-jerk extreme pessimism" do you see here? I don't see any angry folks or people jumping a gun on anything. All I see is some people saying they like where this is going, and others saying they don't.
I don't think it has to do with his smarts. I think it's going to have more to do with his worldview and what experience has taught him. I.E, strategic cynic VS hopeful reactionary.
And who says they won't be here?
Where is anyone suggesting that?
Where's the logic in this? Where has anything suggested that this version of Batman will be "watered down"?
I think you guys are reading way too much into the seasoned, wearily description. I think having an older Batman gives a potential for the two character to learn from each other. With a weary, seasoned Batman we may see him at his lowest. He has been trying to clean up this cesspool that is Gotham and no matter how much he cleans it...it stays dirty and corrupt. A news super villain is created every day. Crazies are coming out of the woodwork just to slap on a costume and fight him. He didn't think he was gonna work so hard for so long. He's at a low point...without hope....that's where Superman comes in.
I'm reminded of a scene from New Frontier where Batman switches from the black bat suit to the oval suit because he scared the kid. I could see that playing out in this movie as the catalyst for the change in costume and in Batman, from night avenger to superhero is the hope Superman brings.
I think this will go the route of the Stark/Cap relationship in The Avengers, which is fine by me. It will start out with Batman being the cocky, arrogant, seasoned badass that we all know he is, and he'll have the attitude of, "Oh, so you've been blessed with superhuman abilities? Big deal. I'm trained in every martial art known to man, I'm the world's greatest detective, and I'm a billionaire industrialist. And I've been doing this sh** for a while." But the more they work together (after duking it out) he'll come to see Superman for the hero and true leader that he is (and essentially, the out-in-front figurehead that Batman can never really be), and he'll earn his respect.
Me personally I don't like it, they should be roughly around the same age and should both learn from each other. A lot of things if am hearing about this film doesn't have me excited and more worried.
wouldn't a normal human have to be way more experienced an intelligent to be considered anywhere near Superman's equal
shhhh...you'll let the cat out of the bag.
It's kind of interesting that they went this route, since their initial comments were that Superman was to be the first hero who would inspire other people like Bruce Wayne to fight crime and such. I didn't completely like that idea though, so this is fine to me. I don't mind an older Batman, I just didn't want a geriatric Batman. That's why I hated the idea of Josh Brolin. He might only be 46 but he looks more like he's 56.
I can see the "seasoned Batman" thing working pretty well after thinking about the story potentials. Who wants to see "young Batman" after we've already had Batman Begins and The Dark Knight? Also with an older Batman we won't have to reintroduce many of the key elements and maybe have more of that Batman the Animated Series/Arkham Series feel to the series. Not to mention the fact that a "seasoned Batman" will have more issues with an alien masquerading as a hero since he'd only ever truly trust allies like Alfred, Nightwing, and Robin (along with a few other soldiers of the Bat) after his trust had been shattered time and again with people like Harvey Dent, Catwoman, etc. With Bruce being older we can see how the crime and filth of Gotham has spread a dark cloud over the once shining sun of hope Bruce intended to bring to the city when he first put on the cape and cowl of justice. Superman's characterization doesn't have to put him beneath Batman, but rather Batman would try to impose a mistrust into Superman through his "wisdom" that Superman just can't allow in his soul because he is that beacon of hope Bruce once intended to be.
I see Batman and Superman having a Han Solo/ Luke Skywalker type relationship.
I'd prefer them to be contemporaries,but (this is DC after all,common sense goes out the window in most cases.) I'll welcome an older/established Batman if it means finally getting Robin/Nightwing/Batgirl in the mix.Maybe a prequel series can deal with origin stories for other members of the Bat-family.
Han and Luke are contemporaries.
This is exactly what my problem with this concept is. The mentality behind this decision is what bugs me the most. The idea that Batman needs about an entire decade of being older and of having more experience than Superman to be his equal is not only false but completely undermines Batman's abilities and worth in the DCU. We are not talking just "a couple of years" here (as in 2 or 3). We are talking around an entire decade, based on what we heard.
To answer the question...no. Batman doesn't need a headstart like that to be considered Superman's equal. First, Batman is not a normal human. He is essentially a monster in human form, and is the least human JL member on the inside while Superman is one of the most. Second, the thing that makes Batman stand next to Superman is his brilliant intellect. Much like Superman spent his entire teen years and early 20's learning how to use his powers, Batman spent his entire teen years and early 20's perfecting his detective/tactical skills. His brilliant intellect is not a product of him doing this for years, but of who he is & of his motivation and of the intense training he had leading up to him becoming Batman. Sure that he naturally improved his skills as he gained more and more experience, but the same thing applies to Superman. Superman didn't start out as the perfect man of all morals either (hence the way he is in MOS); he became better at the job with more experience. Both of them became better superheroes as the years passed by but proportionally speaking, they were always seen as equals to one another and, in a way, grew together throughout the JL years.
Technically speaking, Bruce already had way more experience by the time he became Batman then Clark did by the time he became Superman. Bruce began preparing to be Batman at the age of 8. He's travelled the whole world, has trained with several different masters/teachers, was exposed to multiple different cultures, has seen the worst of societies, the worst of people, was sometimes put in situations to survive by himself using only his body and mind, etc. In most Superman incarnations (including MOS), Clark wasn't exposed to even a quarter of that.
Even if you were to argue that Batman needs a headstart to Superman, an age gap of 2 or 3 years and a career maximum of 5 years prior to Superman's debut is more than enough IMO. No point to get a late 30's/early 40's Batman next to an early 30's Superman.
Well, if your chief concern is that they remain the same age and experience level, I guess it would be a problem.
I was just commenting that if they handle things well, it might not be so bad for Batman to be a little older.
And the "weary" part doesn't bother me too much...I know that my sister worked for children's services, and burned out after just three years. If Batman is basically fighting crime alone in Gotham, which is a *****ed up place on a good day, then it's easy to see how he could be worn out after just a few years.
So perhaps we're going to get a Batman who is inspired by Superman, and a Superman who gets to learn how to better fight his battles.
It would be a fair trade-off, and while their ages and experience levels differ, they'd be equals in the most important ways.
I see what you're saying, but at the same time book learning isn't the same thing as experience. As much as he may have trained, he didn't actually start gaining any experience being Batman until his first night in the costume.
Also, I disagree with the notion that he's a "monster in human form" and the "least human member of the Justice League."
Where has anyone said that this is what we'll be getting, or that this is why Batman will be "seasoned"?
Yea, I haven't seen anything about him being at this a whole ten years over Superman. All I've seen is that Batman is a "FEW" years older (older, not old, big difference) and wiser. Where is anyone getting this "decade" nonsense?
Again, I think y'all are over-reacting to a rather vague statement made about Batman's experience.
^ I think their basing it on the age of the actors...
since Affleck is 40 they assume his batman will also be 40+