BvS "...a man who is older and wiser than Clark Kent": Does this not worry anyone else?

[Bathead]

^ I think their basing it on the age of the actors...

since Affleck is 40 they assume his batman will also be 40+

In other word, it's all rank speculation as usual.

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

I think the intent is to allow them to

A. Continue from Man of Steel where Clark is really just coming into being Superman
B. Avoiding an origin story for Batman because they simply don't need it
C. Gives a new way to approach Batman pessimism vs Superman optimism


I don't see it as Batman mentoring Superman so much as a way of exploring the polarized views between the two. And after the destruction in MoS, I'm sure Batman sees it as a poor performance for Supes first time out, if he doesn't see him as a threat entirely on his own.

Rest assured it's sure to be a conflict/confrontation that becomes a team up. With the number of films Affleck is contracted to play Batman (I think it's 10 films?), I'm putting my money down that Bruce/Batman is the Nick Fury of the Justice League build up.

We'll see Batman cameos post-credits in some films, plus Superman/Batman, Batman films, Justice League for Affleck. So most certainly whatever the plot starts with, it will conclude with Batman and Superman on the same side, but still with different views on their approach.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

I think people are underestimating Sup's experience level...

I mean he's had his power most of his live, he's had to learn how to use them control them since he was a kid. unlike Batman who had to spent several years learning, training and developing his strength an skills as an adult

if anything I'd say superman is the more experienced oner, even if we get an older, already established Batman who's been in the field for 10+ years

Clark also spent the last 10+ years traveling the country using his ability's when ever he could, when ever he need too, to help people

he may not have had his suit, yet, or have been publicly known, but, that doesn't mean he inexperienced

 

[Shikamaru]

I think people are underestimating Sup's experience level...

I mean he's had his power most of his live, he's had to learn how to use them control them since he was a kid. unlike Batman who had to spent several years learning, training and developing his strength an skills as an adult

if anything I'd say superman is the more experienced oner, even if we get an older, already established Batman who's been in the field for 10+ years

Clark also spent the last 10+ years traveling the country using his ability's when ever he could, when ever he need too, to help people

he may not have had his suit, yet, or have been publicly known, but, that doesn't mean he inexperienced

The exact same argument applies to Bruce, even to a greater extent. Bruce started preparing to be Batman when he was 8 years old. He left Gotham at the age of 14 and by the age of 16, he was already more experienced than the entire GCPD. Plus, Clark may have travelled the country but Bruce travelled the whole globe, receiving the best training that money can buy.

Where has anyone said that this is what we'll be getting, or that this is why Batman will be "seasoned"?

^ I think their basing it on the age of the actors...

since Affleck is 40 they assume his batman will also be 40+

In other word, it's all rank speculation as usual.

It's not just rank speculation. Everything from the way they're talking about this film points to this Batman being very late 30's/early 40's having a lot of years of experience behind him. You rarely use words like tired or weary to describe someone still relatively young that's been a superhero for just a couple of years. Seasoned doesn't point to a Batman in his 40's as much as those other two descriptions do, but it does make me cautious when it gets grouped with those other two words. There were also reports of WB wanting a Batman in his 40's prior to Affleck being cast, as well as reports of this being somewhat of a loose adaptation of TDKR. We've got to be kidding ourselves at this point if we don't think they'll be going the "fully grown alpha male Batman next to a Year One rookie Superman". Even if we don't know for sure if that's the route they're taking, all or almost all the evidence we've seen up till now points to that.

 

[Shikamaru]

Well, if your chief concern is that they remain the same age and experience level, I guess it would be a problem.

I was just commenting that if they handle things well, it might not be so bad for Batman to be a little older.

Little? Based on everything we are hearing, Batman will not be a "little" older than Superman.

They don't need to have the exact same birthdays and start on the same day, or anything like that. They have to remain around the same age and experience level. Maybe Bruce is a little bit older, maybe Clark is. Maybe Bruce started a bit earlier, maybe Clark did.

And the "weary" part doesn't bother me too much...I know that my sister worked for children's services, and burned out after just three years. If Batman is basically fighting crime alone in Gotham, which is a *****ed up place on a good day, then it's easy to see how he could be worn out after just a few years.

So perhaps we're going to get a Batman who is inspired by Superman, and a Superman who gets to learn how to better fight his battles.

It would be a fair trade-off, and while their ages and experience levels differ, they'd be equals in the most important ways.

Every single part would make someone like me look as if they're jumping the gun too much when separated from context and from all the other facts. "Weary" as a single word description by itself? Kinda suspicious, but we don't even know what that even means. "Weary" combined with all the other descriptions we've used plus everything else we've been hearing from Snyder and WB separately? At that point, "weary" goes from "kinda suspicious" to "really suspicious".

Creating such big gap between their age and experience goes beyond just the idea of them being equals. It also changes their dynamic. Two 30 year old men with around the same level of experience have an entirely different relationship than a 30 year old man with a 40 year old man do (with that 40 year old man having done this since he was 30). They might still be close, but it still won't be the exact same relationship. You've essentially created an entirely new dynamic. There will always be an element of "mentor/older brother" in there. Imagine if they did the same thing to the Raphael/Leonardo dynamic of the TMNT. It's really a shame IMO, since the classic Batman/Superman dynamic is one of the best dynamics in all of comics.

I see what you're saying, but at the same time book learning isn't the same thing as experience. As much as he may have trained, he didn't actually start gaining any experience being Batman until his first night in the costume.

"Experience" maybe isn't the right word then. I guess the more correct statement is that Bruce has already prepared for the job better and has seen more of the evils of the world than Clark. Though even then, it wasn't entirely just book learning and physical training. There were times when he had his abilities put to the test - tests where he had to use everything he trained his body and mind for to survive.

Even if you were to argue that Batman needs a headstart to Superman, an age gap of 2 or 3 years and a career maximum of 5 years prior to Superman's debut is more than enough IMO. No point to get a late 30's/early 40's Batman next to an early 30's Superman.

Also, I disagree with the notion that he's a "monster in human form" and the "least human member of the Justice League."

To each his own, I guess. I always saw it that way. The rest of the team are for the most part just like us in their heart and personality but with powers. Batman is the least relatable, is obsessive, cynical, cold, calculative, etc. That's also part of what makes the Batman/Superman dynamic so interesting IMO - the demigod is the more human of the two at heart.

 

[Shikamaru]

I can see the "seasoned Batman" thing working pretty well after thinking about the story potentials. Who wants to see "young Batman" after we've already had Batman Begins and The Dark Knight?

Batman in BB/TDK was a watered down version of the young Batman. He was essentially a "Batman" on his way to fully becoming Batman. But he wasn't a fully formed Batman yet due to the skills and mentality he lacked. A young Batman would be a fully formed Batman, but just at the start of his career (meaning he will already start out as a genius, as one of the world's best detectives, etc.). Having a Batman that is a detective and that makes his own tech and that is in the more critical/cynical mindset Batman has would already greatly set him apart from Nolan's Batman. Really the only thing they would have in common is that they're both young and wearing a batsuit.

Also with an older Batman we won't have to reintroduce many of the key elements and maybe have more of that Batman the Animated Series/Arkham Series feel to the series.

Irrelevant point. You can introduce a Batman 2 or 3 years into his career without redoing the origin or establishing any of the villains again. You don't have to age him as much as Snyder/WB seems to want to age him to have that B:TAS/Arkham feel.

Not to mention the fact that a "seasoned Batman" will have more issues with an alien masquerading as a hero since he'd only ever truly trust allies like Alfred, Nightwing, and Robin (along with a few other soldiers of the Bat) after his trust had been shattered time and again with people like Harvey Dent, Catwoman, etc.

Based on previous DCU continuities, an older Batman would have less trust issues. Often as his career progressed, he became more and more open to the idea of working with other people (first worked alone, then established a relationship with Gordon, then got Robin, then grew the Bat Family, then joined the JL, then created the Outsiders, then created Batman Inc, etc.).

With Bruce being older we can see how the crime and filth of Gotham has spread a dark cloud over the once shining sun of hope Bruce intended to bring to the city when he first put on the cape and cowl of justice. Superman's characterization doesn't have to put him beneath Batman, but rather Batman would try to impose a mistrust into Superman through his "wisdom" that Superman just can't allow in his soul because he is that beacon of hope Bruce once intended to be.

This would be a valid point if this was Nolan's Batman. However, Batman was never mainly concerned with inspiring hope to people outside the Nolanverse. Sure that that does play a small role, but nowhere to the extent of Nolan's Batman. Batman has almost always been vastly about becoming a symbol of fear and terrorizing the hearts of criminals. Usually Batman has too cynical of a view on humanity to make inspiring hope into people his main goal (note that I said main goal). Not that the hope-symbolism is a bad idea and it was fine in the Nolan films, but we should have a new take on Batman and especially on a Batman coming out so soon after Nolan's.

 

[PacificBoy]

Could a big brother Batman dynamic not work out (and be interesting) though? A mature relationship which helps to realize Superman's potential as the leader of the Justice League?

 

[The Question]

"Experience" maybe isn't the right word then. I guess the more correct statement is that Bruce has already prepared for the job better and has seen more of the evils of the world than Clark. Though even then, it wasn't entirely just book learning and physical training. There were times when he had his abilities put to the test - tests where he had to use everything he trained his body and mind for to survive.

Well, that last part tends to vary from version to version. There are some versions where, in spite of all of his training, his first night out was the first time he was every seriously in danger. Personally I think that's more fun, but then I prefer a Batman who has to struggle to get things done.

Even if you were to argue that Batman needs a headstart to Superman, an age gap of 2 or 3 years and a career maximum of 5 years prior to Superman's debut is more than enough IMO. No point to get a late 30's/early 40's Batman next to an early 30's Superman.

Well, I think the reason people assume that much of a gap is because that's the age gap between the actors.

To each his own, I guess. I always saw it that way. The rest of the team are for the most part just like us in their heart and personality but with powers. Batman is the least relatable, is obsessive, cynical, cold, calculative, etc. That's also part of what makes the Batman/Superman dynamic so interesting IMO - the demigod is the more human of the two at heart.

Y'see, what you describe sounds very human to me. Not particularly healthy or balanced, but human. Batman's an introvert who suffers from depression who's created this belief system and monastic lifestyle for himself to cope with his pain. The details may be different, but I can relate to that on a pretty basic level.

 

[Tempest]

Little? Based on everything we are hearing, Batman will not be a "little" older than Superman.

They don't need to have the exact same birthdays and start on the same day, or anything like that. They have to remain around the same age and experience level. Maybe Bruce is a little bit older, maybe Clark is. Maybe Bruce started a bit earlier, maybe Clark did.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I'm in your camp; I prefer them to be about the same age, and to be learning and stumbling along together.

And I'm trying to stay positive. I don't know if you noticed, but I really have a very sunny personality.

Every single part would make someone like me look as if they're jumping the gun too much when separated from context and from all the other facts. "Weary" as a single word description by itself? Kinda suspicious, but we don't even know what that even means. "Weary" combined with all the other descriptions we've used plus everything else we've been hearing from Snyder and WB separately? At that point, "weary" goes from "kinda suspicious" to "really suspicious".

Creating such big gap between their age and experience goes beyond just the idea of them being equals. It also changes their dynamic. Two 30 year old men with around the same level of experience have an entirely different relationship than a 30 year old man with a 40 year old man do (with that 40 year old man having done this since he was 30). They might still be close, but it still won't be the exact same relationship. You've essentially created an entirely new dynamic. There will always be an element of "mentor/older brother" in there. Imagine if they did the same thing to the Raphael/Leonardo dynamic of the TMNT. It's really a shame IMO, since the classic Batman/Superman dynamic is one of the best dynamics in all of comics.

I know, I know. I can think of how it'll be, and it makes me cringe. But I remain hopeful that maybe, just maybe, they'll surprise us. Maybe?

 

[Green Goblin]

He should be in his prime

 

[Shikamaru]

Could a big brother Batman dynamic not work out (and be interesting) though? A mature relationship which helps to realize Superman's potential as the leader of the Justice League?

It's not just about getting it to work. The execution is only half the battle. The other half is the concept.

Suppose you execute it right. The question you then have to ask yourself is if it was worth going this direction instead of going with the classic Batman/Superman dynamic we know. Can the classic Batman/Superman dynamic not be done just as good as this idea or done even better? Changes to the source material should always be welcome but only when the idea you will bring to the big screen is better than the idea that was in the source material. Otherwise, what was the point?

If you really like the direction they're going in and even prefer it to the classic Batman/Superman dynamic, the more power to you. Me personally, I have no interest in the direction they're going with. Not only do it find it boring but I also think it is bound to make both Batman and Superman look bad for reasons already addressed.

Also, there is no official set-in-stone leader of the JL. There are "first among equals" though. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman hold that title most of the time.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I'm in your camp; I prefer them to be about the same age, and to be learning and stumbling along together.

And I'm trying to stay positive. I don't know if you noticed, but I really have a very sunny personality.

I can't stay positive. I really tried my best but after everything I've been hearing about this film - being prematurely rushed in development, being made at WB's will instead of at Snyder/Goyer's, Snyder asking Frank Miller for advice on the film, casting Affleck as Batman, letting Goyer and Snyder write the script all by themselves, etc.) - I can no longer stay positive. Making Batman much older than Superman and changing the Batman/Superman dynamic was the last straw for me. Almost anything past this point would be blind optimism on my part.

I know, I know. I can think of how it'll be, and it makes me cringe. But I remain hopeful that maybe, just maybe, they'll surprise us. Maybe?

Oh, they surprised me, alright. I think WB should get themselves checked for superpowers. It is amazing how they are able to surprise me everytime with how bad they fail at properly doing a DC property right in live-action (save for a few exceptions). Just when I think they can't screw up anymore, they prove me wrong. It's gotten to the point that I loose almost all excitement for anything they announce because I know they will most likely screw it up. I can't get excited for the Gordon show announced because I really don't trust WB, despite me wanting to see a Gordon show for years.

This particular film is what brought me to this conclusion. Back when this film was announced, there were particular things about it that I just knew wouldn't be screwed up with Snyder as the director. One of those things was Batman himself and the Batman/Superman dynamic. I just "knew" that at least those things would be done great and straight-off-the-page, as bad as the film might be. And I was even wrong about that.

 

[Shikamaru]

Well, that last part tends to vary from version to version. There are some versions where, in spite of all of his training, his first night out was the first time he was every seriously in danger. Personally I think that's more fun, but then I prefer a Batman who has to struggle to get things done.

Like I said, he still has a better understanding of the nature of the world than Superman does when he starts out and that is due to travelling the whole globe while in most continuities, Clark doesn't travel much prior to becoming other than a few places in the US and to the North Pole. Regardless, Clark doesn't really have more experience than Bruce when he starts either.

Sure that Batman struggled a bit in his first year. Sure that he did get his butt kicked a bit by the GCPD and some other thugs in Year One. However, the same thing applies to Superman. He didn't easily take out your average alien invasion when he started out in the same way Batman today easily takes out some common thugs. He got better at the job with more experience. Both got better at the job with more experience. Both grew separately on the job in Metropolis and Gotham respectively, and then grew together once they met and formed the JL.

Well, I think the reason people assume that much of a gap is because that's the age gap between the actors.

It's not just that. It's also everything they said about the new Batman, including the way they worded it, and also all the reports prior to Batman being cast that reported a lot of aspects WB was looking for in the new Batman. Plus, Affleck looks in his late 30's at best. Cavill still looks relatively young and Year One-ish. There is an obviously large age gap between them of around 10 years - maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.

Y'see, what you describe sounds very human to me. Not particularly healthy or balanced, but human. Batman's an introvert who suffers from depression who's created this belief system and monastic lifestyle for himself to cope with his pain. The details may be different, but I can relate to that on a pretty basic level.

An average person is not that way at all. They're not insane, obsessive, paranoid, cold, or calculative. They also don't paint themselves as monsters and try to perfect their mind in every field in order to do that. Most other humans also lived a normal life - went to school, had a lot of friends, etc. - as opposed to spending their entire childhood training to become a tactical machine. Clark Kent, Barry Allen, and Hal Jordan are a lot more like your average human than Bruce Wayne is.

 

[JDonaldD]

I am a pretty open-minded person. I am not one of the Zack Snyder detractors. I actually really loved Man of Steel. It was the Superman movie that I had always wanted to see. Sure it wasn't perfect, and there could have been a bit more "lightness" but overall I think it was a great interpretation of a modern-day Superman.

However, Superman vs. Batman (ugh, such a bad title) has me worried. Ever since the initial revelation I have been a little worried. The Dark Knight Returns quote that was read before the announcement struck me as an odd quote to use for a Batman/Superman team-up movie.

Of course they said that they aren't doing an adaptation, they are just using the quote as inspiration for the feel of the movie. The thing is, this is a quote that carries a lot of weight and history with it. In the Dark Knight Returns Clark and Bruce have a lifetime of history behind them. There is a reason why Batman is slightly antagonistic towards Supes.

Although, this isn't the problem either. The real thing that worries me is this quote:

"Ben has the acting chops to create a layered portrayal of a man who is older and wiser than Clark Kent and bears the scars of a seasoned crime fighter, but retain the charm that the world sees in billionaire Bruce Wayne. I can't wait to work with him".

This worries me tremendously. I don't mind that Batman and Superman don't exactly see eye to eye in this movie. There are plenty of reasons why Batman could distrust Superman, and Batman is already inherently distrusting of most people anyways. The problem is that they are seemingly painting a version of Batman that is someone that has more years on Superman. I think this undermines the fact that Batman and Superman in the comics are generally considered equals, at least in terms of intellect and wisdom.

I think that it is going to be a big balancing act if this movie can pull off having Batman in a Superman sequel, without Batman upstaging Superman in his own sequel. People already aren't incredibly keen on Superman and I just don't think it is fair to cast Superman as this young, inexperienced boy next to a grizzled, old Batman.

What do you guys think?

I have these exact same concerns. We'll have to wait and see but Batman is already infinitely more popular with movie goers than Superman and there elements of MOS (a movie which I did like) that felt apologetic regarding Superman, as if the team making the movie were embarrassed by him.

 

[Tempest]

I can't stay positive. I really tried my best but after everything I've been hearing about this film - being prematurely rushed in development, being made at WB's will instead of at Snyder/Goyer's, Snyder asking Frank Miller for advice on the film, casting Affleck as Batman, letting Goyer and Snyder write the script all by themselves, etc.) - I can no longer stay positive. Making Batman much older than Superman and changing the Batman/Superman dynamic was the last straw for me. Almost anything past this point would be blind optimism on my part.

Oh, they surprised me, alright. I think WB should get themselves checked for superpowers. It is amazing how they are able to surprise me everytime with how bad they fail at properly doing a DC property right in live-action (save for a few exceptions). Just when I think they can't screw up anymore, they prove me wrong. It's gotten to the point that I loose almost all excitement for anything they announce because I know they will most likely screw it up. I can't get excited for the Gordon show announced because I really don't trust WB, despite me wanting to see a Gordon show for years.

This particular film is what brought me to this conclusion. Back when this film was announced, there were particular things about it that I just knew wouldn't be screwed up with Snyder as the director. One of those things was Batman himself and the Batman/Superman dynamic. I just "knew" that at least those things would be done great and straight-off-the-page, as bad as the film might be. And I was even wrong about that.

Quite frankly, I expect to be infuriated by the new film, but I'm trying to hold onto the optimism a little bit longer.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite stories from the comics for Batman and Superman? I'd love to know which of the comics really enticed you, and which ones you don't care for so much.

 

[KingMadness]

Batman and Superman are not considered equal in terms of intellect.

 

[Shikamaru]

Quite frankly, I expect to be infuriated by the new film, but I'm trying to hold onto the optimism a little bit longer.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite stories from the comics for Batman and Superman? I'd love to know which of the comics really enticed you, and which ones you don't care for so much.

I'm not really big into World's Finest stories. My interest of their dynamic comes mainly from the JLA stuff.

 

[Bathead]

Batman and Superman are not considered equal in terms of intellect.

I don't know if this is a fair comparison, but I always looked at it as Superman is very very smart, but Batman is cleverer and a better tactician/strategist.

 

[storyteller]

While the BTAS Batman had been operating for a decade. he never came across many of his bad guys until that 10 year marker. Also Bruce was portrayed as still being Bruce. In the time between BTAS and Gotham Knights(Tim Drake) Bruce has become an act. Once he meets Superman(who has barely operated for a year but has a lot of experience) the whole dynamic changes. He's meets some serious power that is legit but he's gotta learn to trust. Superman at the same time has to as well and really understand what it means to push yourself to your limits.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ Bruce was also still around the same age as Clark. He just started his career at a younger age than DCAU Superman and than Comic Book Batman.