The Amazing Spider-Man A warning for Sony and Webb

[TheSlag]

Sitting here tonight watching FX's SM 2.1 and SM3, and more specifically the FX extras, I wanted to issue advice, oh hell, call it what it is, a warning to Sony and Webb with the reboot.

Don't screw Da Pooch. t:

Or to be specific, I know there is the rumor of the budget for shooting (yes, shooting, not distribution, advertising, etc.) of approx 80 million.

And I understand where you (Sony) is coming from. It's a business, and you're in it to make money. Lot's of Money. But DO NOT let the short term numbers effect your judgement on the Long Term. In other words... Don't Screw Da Pooch. DO NOT sacrifce effects/FX/CGI... to save some short term bucks, and in the process ruin your "Showcase" Franchise.. Spider-Man.

I understand that a lot of the savings is coming from not having to pay the BIG BUCKS to Tobey, Kirsten, James, et. all.. and Raimi. Although I think you're probably still paying a pretty penny for Webb. Hope so too. The director should be paid top notch, as long as he earns his money.

All that said, the FX in SM1-3 (moreso SM2 and SM3) were TOP NOTCH. DO NOT.. forget that and look to something along the lines of Twilight or Smallville which is $%^&$%^$%^& when it comes to FX. (not going to comment on the writing or plotlines.. which SUCK IMO also, but not the point here).

SPEND the MONEY to get the FX RIGHT. SPEND the MONEY to get the fights with the villains RIGHT. SPEND the MONEY on the effects.. from the Spider-Cam, to the CGI.. to do the Villains justice, and to do SPIDEY Justice.

IF YOU DO NOT... YOU will be Sorry. The CORE fans will Backlash against it. PERIOD. Yes, it may not happen with the reboot itself, cause it is new, and the hype for it is OFF the Frickin Wall. BUT, Trust ME... It will come.. IF you skimp and try to save a $ here or there on FX and CGI.

Short Term.. the outlook may look great.. Long term.. Utter Disaster.

Just some Advice.. HELL.. A WARNING!

 

[©KAW]

I repeat:

Get WETA Digital to handle the bulk of the CGI/Visual Effects, it's the best company (Avatar/Lord of the Rings) to take on the new Spider-Man film. I'm hoping that James Cameron and Jon Landau hinted at this to Marc Webb. That Weta and 3D are part of the reason why Avatar was able to break new ground. Fingers crossed.

 

[spider-neil]

I think the problem with the CG is some of it doesn't have to be cg. spidey wears a mask, there could literally but anyone in the suit, martial arts expects, stunt people, qymnasts.

I think weta are out of the question for the effects because

a) they are way too expensive - but then they did D9 effects
b) sony will give the effects to sony image works - but then sony gave D9 effects to weta

 

[©KAW]

District 9's effects were great, and yes, done by WETA.

Although I do agree, Spider-Man should be CGI as less as humanly possible. But when CGI is absolutely needed, I'm hoping Sony is smart enough to know, that if your want better quality, you take your project to the better company. To hell with egos!

 

[spider-neil]

District 9's effects were great, and yes, done by WETA.

Although I do agree, Spider-Man should be CGI as less as humanly possible. But when CGI is absolutely needed, I'm hoping Sony is smart enough to know, that if your want better quality, you take your project to the better company. To hell with egos!

from my experience good cg is about time but with time comes expense.
they took two years to complete the train sequence and it shows.

 

[©KAW]

It's more than just time, the director, producer(s) and the artists/talent behind the VFX...that's what makes great CGI. And let's face it, WETA is above Sony Imageworks on all fronts.

Money shouldn't be the issue, Sony just knocked off at least 100M bucks off of the production and backend end deals with the budget. Besides, Spider-Man is beyond worth the money.

 

[Ajendo]

Looking back at Raimi's spidey films, there were a lot of scenes where CG was used and it simply wasn't needed. Money should be spent and used where it's required. I was watching the first matrix movie last night and to my surprise, there's no way you could tell it came out in '98/'99. The film could have been made last year that's how good it looks. The spidey movies havn't aged well, especially spider-man 1. Webb needs to ensure that CG is used where it's really needed. Some of the CG shots Raimi used for spider-man could have been used by simply putting an eastern stunt man in a spidey suit and to boot do a superior job and could have saved money.
With regards to effects and choreography of the action, Webb/Sony are really going to have to think outside the box and study the source material properly and also, keep the effects consistently up to par.

 

[Ajendo]

double post

 

[spider-neil]

there are some shots in SM1 thst looked terrible AT THE TIME never mind aging well.
for me the best effect shots in the movie were

1. where spidey spins around the pumpkin bombs, I was amazed when I found out that was cg
2. the entire train sequence

basically every single effect shot should be to that quality

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

there are some shots in SM1 thst looked terrible AT THE TIME never mind aging well.
for me the best effect shots in the movie were

1. where spidey spins around the pumpkin bombs, I was amazed when I found out that was cg
2. the entire train sequence

basically every single effect shot should be to that quality

train scene from sm2???
thats prolly one of the best moments in raimis spider-man movie
but effects wise..it wasnt that great...sometimes ock and spidey looked soft like putty and molinas face was messed up at times and looked off...so?

 

[A&W]

None of us know what the budget is. A rumour leaked that it was 80 mill. A rumour. Take into account that studios always lie about how much they spend. Take into account the script was already made and probably paid for.

Take into account they don't have to spend a ton of money experimenting with how to make spidey move and look. They already did with the last few movies. Take into account technology is progressing and you can now get better effects with less money than you could back when spider-man 1 was filmed or even part 3 was filmed. Look at D9. The prawn looked a lot more realistic than the effects of the spidey movies and that movie only cost 30 million.

It's possible the vulture might be the villain in this reboot and it's possible that while part 4 was in pre production they already spent the money experimenting with how to make him look and move. Dollars already out of the way right there.

Also please ditch the live action high wire crap that looks incredibly fake. People don't move like that even when they do have superpowers. Spidey doesn't levitate and he doesn't fly like SuperMan. The high wire crap makes it look like he's moving without pushing or pulling himself. Plus if you keep Spidey's mask on the CGI is a lot easier and cheaper. Making the texture of spidey's costume is a lot easier and cheaper to do CGI than a human face, plus his mask should just stay on anyways.

 

[spider-neil]

None of us know what the budget is. A rumour leaked that it was 80 mill. A rumour. Take into account that studios always lie about how much they spend. Take into account the script was already made and probably paid for.

Take into account they don't have to spend a ton of money experimenting with how to make spidey move and look. They already did with the last few movies. Take into account technology is progressing and you can now get better effects with less money than you could back when spider-man 1 was filmed or even part 3 was filmed. Look at D9. The prawn looked a lot more realistic than the effects of the spidey movies and that movie only cost 30 million.

It's possible the vulture might be the villain in this reboot and it's possible that while part 4 was in pre production they already spent the money experimenting with how to make him look and move. Dollars already out of the way right there.

Also please ditch the live action high wire crap that looks incredibly fake. People don't move like that even when they do have superpowers. Spidey doesn't levitate and he doesn't fly like SuperMan. The high wire crap makes it look like he's moving without pushing or pulling himself. Plus if you keep Spidey's mask on the CGI is a lot easier and cheaper. Making the texture of spidey's costume is a lot easier and cheaper to do CGI than a human face, plus his mask should just stay on anyways.

D9 is a bad example because it was scales where as spidey's fabric is a look harder to make look real add to that the dynamics of a superhuman. even though spidey is jumping way higher than a normal human and is stronger than a normal human he is still governed by gravity, inertia etc very difficult to get looking right and not come across ans 'spongy' or weightless.

 

[A&W]

D9 is a bad example because it was scales where as spidey's fabric is a look harder to make look real add to that the dynamics of a superhuman. even though spidey is jumping way higher than a normal human and is stronger than a normal human he is still governed by gravity, inertia etc very difficult to get looking right and not come across ans 'spongy' or weightless.

spidey's costume had a scale like pattern on it. His costume is probably easier to duplicate than the Prawn's face or texture.

yeah it takes effort to get the gravity and everything right with CGI, but that aspect comes off as looking even worse when they use high wires. Perfect example. Spidey 2 where he saves those kids from the bus and then leaps off. It doesn't look like he jumped or like he pulled himself up in the air using his web. It looks like he was lifted by highwires or like he just levitated upwards.

HIghwires can't duplicate the inertia, gravity ect like you said. It makes the character look weightlessness like they are just moving by themselves without anything moving them.

Computers are getting better and better at this. Just look at video games. Even the graphics in Spider-Man 2 the game did a better job as far as making it look the character is effected by gravity then the highwires in the movies did. And that game was years ago.

Plus look at the dragons in Avatar. They looked perfect and they weren't suspended by highwires. They were completely CGI.

The ONLY advantage highwires have over CGI is that you don't have to spend the time to get the texture looking real. But even then you still have to spend a lot of time making sure the lighting effects match up so that when inserted against a green screen it looks like it belongs there.

Highwires too often have that Matrix effect or the crouching tiger hidden dragon where the movements look really really fake. Yeah the character and the texture look real. but the movemens of the character look horribly fake. It worked for Matrix because they weren't governed by the laws of physic like gravity and inertia. It wasn't even air they were breathing.

But outside of the Matrix it's a poor substitute for high quality CGI.

edit.. part of the advantage that computers can give for this is that you actually program the laws of physics into the simulation. How much the chracter weighs, and where the character's center of gravity is and how it will move when the character moves. How much weight is contained in the head, stomach ect. How far joints can bend ect. You program into it if a sledgehammer weighing this much hits spidey while moving this fast and hits in him in this location what will be the counter reaction to that force when it hits spidey ect..

 

[©KAW]

Which all boils down to...let WETA handle the CGI. They're also better at miniature models and makeup than Sony Imageworks.

Are there any NEW producers working on the new film, or is it the same uncreative Avi Arad and Laura Ziskin?

 

[MrSpyder]

In order for this to work of course more money will be needed. Spidey always needs to swing gracefully and fighting his enemies should have movements that are believable to the eye.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I really want to see Spidey move like a spider. Not all the time, but I definitely want there to be times where the audience goes "holy ****" when they see him move/crawl/twist his arms/body around. CGI or contortionist. So long as it works.

 

[Ipodman]

The ALiens in District 9 looked pretty real....

 

[chaseter]

I am all for WETA doing the effects over Sony imageworks. However, it will more than likely not happen.

 

[©KAW]

I really want to see Spidey move like a spider. Not all the time, but I definitely want there to be times where the audience goes "holy ****" when they see him move/crawl/twist his arms/body around. CGI or contortionist. So long as it works.

I agree, a Spidery-like movement is very interesting, I say go with contortionists.

 

[Reikowolf]

hmm. interesting.

IMO, the key to the effect is, "Does it work?" If the effect is believable, then it should not matter if it was digital or practical to achieve.

The concern that comes into play is whether Webb feels confident and comfortable doing the action sequences. Depending on the director's skill, it will determine how much they can save on the shots while still making them believable. If a direct does not know action and how to shoot it, then they will rely on digital, which could be more expensive

 

[©KAW]

Yeah, but for the most part, the (CGI) effects are not believable with Sony Imageworks. Thus, is why I stress a better VFX company needs to be on hand.

 

[BrollySupersj]

80 millions is a lot of money. Movies like District 9 and Cloverfield had less than 80 million, and the SFX in those movies were great. A lot can be done with 80 million, chillax.

 

[LightningFlash]

It's a 50/50 with 80 million. Movies like District 9 did far more with far little, but still, a movie with only that amount, and we might be getting Spidey facing off with just regular criminals and only try to get super-powered guys in the next installment. Besides, all we've heard is this movie is about Peter acknowledging that he has powers and dealing with Ben's death. It would be sad if we don't have a worthy opponent. It will be like Superman Returns if that be true.

 

[TheSlag]

It will be like Superman Returns if that be true.

Agreed.

 

[Gotham22]

No CGI when it comes to a Spider-Man face shot will look stupid and ugly.