Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x17 - "Identity and Change" - Discussion Thread

[Goonie]

The point of the framework was to create a world where a regret is removed or whatever...so memories of your actual life HAS to be erased, so you can be at square one. May's obviously had a domino effect on the world, as did Coulson's etc. You are talking as if it is established that he is brainwashed...but when I asked for some sort of evidence you fell to "who knows what else she did." The framework design isn't about brainwashing...it's about removing memories and allowing you to set a different course based on wishes, regrets etc...that your virtual self and the virtual world then has to adjust to.

So explain how he does not remember Simmons / being friends with Skye & co without the brain washing reasoning ?

 

[Heretic]

So explain how he does not remember Simmons / being friends with Skye & co without the brain washing reasoning ?

Their memories have clearly been messed with...because that's the point of the framework. But that isn't the same as being brainwashed to love someone and kill for them. May is not in Hydra because she was brainwashed to love Hydra. She is in Hydra because she was placed in the framework and her regret was killing that kid...so that kid's survival led to a completely different life and outlook for May, where she willingly joined Hydra. You are arguing it as if Fitz's mind was pushed to love Aida and pushed to kill...when that is not what has been established. In the framework, his life was such that he never met Skye. I guess it is a form of brainwashing, in that they are living a false life...but she is not manipulating their decisions...she inserted them into the framework based on certain criteria that they wanted, and then the events inside the framework led them to where they are now.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

"Reality is just perception. They perceive it as real, which makes it real."

Is what Radcliffe said just before Aida killed him. It was part of what 'solved the paradox'. And yet, Radcliffe knew in the framework that it wasn't real, which would make it not real for him, thus she actually killed him according to their own logic and went against her programming, right? As well as Agnes, who perceived it as real, thus making it so that Fitz killed her "for real", from both Agnes' and Fitz' perspective. Wasn't Aida built to preserve human life?

 

[scarlet-witch]

The point of the framework was to create a world where a regret is removed or whatever...so memories of your actual life HAS to be erased, so you can be at square one. May's obviously had a domino effect on the world, as did Coulson's etc. You are talking as if it is established that he is brainwashed...but when I asked for some sort of evidence you fell to "who knows what else she did." The framework design isn't about brainwashing...it's about removing memories and allowing you to set a different course based on wishes, regrets etc...that your virtual self and the virtual world then has to adjust to.

That's clearly not what happened to Fitz though. It seems obvious that AIDA changed him in a way to make him fall in love with her. Fitz's regret was what, not asking Simmons to marry him? That doesn't turn into this.

Also, Mace is so generic that I completely forgot about him until he showed up on screen again.

I did like this episode better than last weeks. Like others said, I like that it's more evenly matched with no inhuman powers.

 

[Goonie]

"Reality is just perception. They perceive it as real, which makes it real."

Is what Radcliffe said just before Aida killed him. It was part of what 'solved the paradox'. And yet, Radcliffe knew in the framework that it wasn't real, which would make it not real for him, thus she actually killed him according to their own logic and went against her programming, right? As well as Agnes, who perceived it as real, thus making it so that Fitz killed her "for real", from both Agnes' and Fitz' perspective. Wasn't Aida built to preserve human life?

& when Fitz regains his memories hes gonna sleep easier knowing she was not real & already died once & the Framework & everyone in it besides the core group are not real as said above even fake Radcliffe knows that its not real but he has all of his memories for some reason but he likely did that by design for him Simmons has to realize that was not Fitz. Like said above as well what regret does Fitz have that would make him into that ? Hes been brain washed the most out of the group. Fitz & Simmons are the two most innocent people of SHIELD Fitz would not turn into that over night without being brain washed & Aida wants what she knows she can't have in the real world so she brain washes Fitz

 

[Goonie]

I would say this show is making Agent May look bad the most

That kid does not die & she still becomes ***** May & an even bigger Super ***** May at that ?

I could see Season 1 Pre SHIELD Skye joining Hydra if they got to her first & even becoming a double agent is possible for her

Coulson was a teacher

Mack was just a cool dad

Mace is Mace

Simmons died early on in there

It is certainly questionable right now with Fitz I will admit that much but for the sake of the character for a lot of the fans its best that hes completely brain washed

Agent May is coming off the worst here

 

[just one thing]

so the whole project looking glass thing. how might that progress?

 

[Vartha]

Wow I am loving this season!
Tho the LMD part seems to be a side story at this point, if Aida is only keeping them in the What-If world.

 

[chicagodave]

Its safe to say this show is working on some deep levels here, but yet its still engaging and suspenseful the writing has been amazing.

 

[Goonie]

so the whole project looking glass thing. how might that progress?

Maybe she is working on a way to bring the fake soldiers & equipment to the real world TRON style ? If so theres hope for Fake Ward in the real world as well & Mack might be able to keep his daughter as well

 

[Humbugged]

That's clearly not what happened to Fitz though. It seems obvious that AIDA changed him in a way to make him fall in love with her. Fitz's regret was what, not asking Simmons to marry him? That doesn't turn into this.

Also, Mace is so generic that I completely forgot about him until he showed up on screen again.

I did like this episode better than last weeks. Like others said, I like that it's more evenly matched with no inhuman powers.

Fitz's regrets will turn out to be about his father not being around .

So

Father is a piece of **** ,stays around and Fitz becomes a piece of ****
(and if the casting spec is right they picked the perfect guy for it)

 

[SirStrangefolk]

& when Fitz regains his memories hes gonna sleep easier knowing she was not real & already died once & the Framework & everyone in it besides the core group are not real as said above even fake Radcliffe knows that its not real but he has all of his memories for some reason but he likely did that by design for him Simmons has to realize that was not Fitz. Like said above as well what regret does Fitz have that would make him into that ? Hes been brain washed the most out of the group. Fitz & Simmons are the two most innocent people of SHIELD Fitz would not turn into that over night without being brain washed & Aida wants what she knows she can't have in the real world so she brain washes Fitz

Fitz' regret probably has to do with the bond with his father, thus changing his entire upbringing.

However, that was not my point. My point was that the entire internal logic that allowed Aida to kill Radcliffe and put him into the framework was that reality is whatever you perceive as real, according to Radcliffe, meaning that if he continued his existence in the framework and perceived it as real, he would not technically be dead according to his own logic and Aida would not technically kill him, thus not needing to go against her programming. However, if Radcliff is aware he's in the framework, he clearly doesn't "perceive it as real", and thus he does not exist within reality according to these rules.

Similarly, Aida was programmed to protect the framework. She was also supposed to preserve human life, which according to Radcliffe could be done by uploading their consciousness so they could live forever. But then she just lets Agnes die in the framework, by manipulating the situation by being present herself and talking about a world "on the other side" no less, which goes completely against the "upload their consciousness to save them" idea.

 

[Goonie]

Fitz' regret probably has to do with the bond with his father, thus changing his entire upbringing.

However, that was not my point. My point was that the entire internal logic that allowed Aida to kill Radcliffe and put him into the framework was that reality is whatever you perceive as real, according to Radcliffe, meaning that if he continued his existence in the framework and perceived it as real, he would not technically be dead according to his own logic and Aida would not technically kill him, thus not needing to go against her programming. However, if Radcliff is aware he's in the framework, he clearly doesn't "perceive it as real", and thus he does not exist within reality according to these rules.

Similarly, Aida was programmed to protect the framework. She was also supposed to preserve human life, which according to Radcliffe could be done by uploading their consciousness so they could live forever. But then she just lets Agnes die in the framework, by manipulating the situation by being present herself and talking about a world "on the other side" no less, which goes completely against the "upload their consciousness to save them" idea.

This is all lazy & in the end none of this is real & they ruined May out of this but hey cool if we get Ward back out of all of this as well & hopefully Coulson gets to keep his soap

 

[Goonie]

The framework is a prison as Coulson, Fitz, Mace & May are not there of their own free will they are prisoners being kept in their place so that they can not bother Aida in the real world & Aida is not saving anybody she is forcing into the framework against their wills

 

[scarlet-witch]

Fitz's regrets will turn out to be about his father not being around .

So

Father is a piece of **** ,stays around and Fitz becomes a piece of ****
(and if the casting spec is right they picked the perfect guy for it)

I forgot about the dad thing.

 

[Goonie]

Fitz's regrets will turn out to be about his father not being around

That would be even lamer than what happened with May

 

[Silvermoon]

I don't think Fitz's regret regarding his father is *just* that he wasn't around - I think it might be more the *reason* why he feels that his father wasn't around that's his regret. Remember it was mentioned that Fitz feels like he was never good enough for his father/that he was never able to make his father proud...So if Aida changed it so that Fitz would be the kind of man that the senior Mr. Fitz would be proud of?

 

[Goonie]

So if Aida changed it so that Fitz would be the kind of man that the senior Mr. Fitz would be proud of?

& how in the ****ing hell would Aida know what Fitz's dad would be proud of ?

How ?

This is poor thought out thinking

I really hope the reasoning makes sense next week

Because if this is it

WOW

Does Fitz even know why his father left or just what his mother told him ?

This would be ****** reasoning

 

[WeatherWizard99]

and if the casting spec is right they picked the perfect guy for it

wait, fitz´s father was casted !? who is he !?

 

[SirStrangefolk]

& how in the ****ing hell would Aida know what Fitz's dad would be proud of ?

Magic? [BLACKOUT]I mean, seriously, the Darkhold was a thing[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Silvermoon]

Magic? [BLACKOUT]I mean, seriously, the Darkhold was a thing[/BLACKOUT]

Not to mention whatever she put together based on any public records

 

[Goonie]

Not to mention whatever she put together based on any public records

Also stuff Fitz could have found out on his own but do we know he looked ? Nope this will be lame reasoning just like the reasoning for The Evil Queen when she hated Snow White is stupid. There is just not enough information regarding his father & Fitz not knowing his side at all to make any type of predictions like this

 

[Dark Raven]

Who do people think will be the last person to be turned? May or Fitz?

And do you think Ward will change sides when he finds out who he was in the real world, and that the SHIELD agents hate him and don't trust him?

 

[just one thing]

Who do people think will be the last person to be turned? May or Fitz?

And do you think Ward will change sides when he finds out who he was in the real world, and that the SHIELD agents hate him and don't trust him?

half thinking he already is. When ever he gets told something and it goes to fitz and aida they seem to be progressing with information. He was talking about skye being done for before she was. But then he was prepared to shoot fitz. hmmmm think they are playing with us.

Have to expect him to betray everyone which means he won't or maybe thats what they want us to expect

Fitz to be the last, maybe even an evil version gets out of the framework through that project looking glass.

 

[just one thing]

Also stuff Fitz could have found out on his own but do we know he looked ? Nope this will be lame reasoning just like the reasoning for The Evil Queen when she hated Snow White is stupid. There is just not enough information regarding his father & Fitz not knowing his side at all to make any type of predictions like this

radcliff knew his father.

not sure what your problem is with a magic mirror telling you someone is more fairer than you being justification to hate some one.