Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - 4x20 - "Farewell, Cruel World!" - Discussion Thread

[chicagodave]

Great episode once again, the acting has always been great but damn they have cranked it to emmy worthy especially fitz.

 

[trich19045]

That could be, but Fitz calls her Ophilia just before they're transported. I'm wondering if the Darkhold effected Adia THEN Ophilia. Makes sense since there's rumors of Ghost Rider returnning

I think AIDA and Ophelia are essentially the same person because AIDA didn't make any changes in the Framework to her own mind before entering the same way she did to the kidnapped SHIELD agents (just like Jemma & Daisy were their true selves in the Framework because AIDA wasn't able to alter their minds) and we've seen that if someone is dead in the real world (Agnes) they can still be alive in the Framework, so AIDA being beheaded didn't stop the transfer of AIDA/Ophelia to the "human" body. Therefore, AIDA's "mind" was infected by the Darkhold, her "mind" was transferred into the Framework in the form of Madame Hydra and now with the creation of HumanAIDA/Ophelia/AIDA3.0/iUsed2BArobot/whatever she will call herself, that Darkhold infection is contained in that mind as well.

As far as anyone else coming through, I'm not sure they will be Darkhold-affected unless they looked at the book. Fitz and Coulson both came through that machine AIDA built previously when they were trapped in another dimension and I don't recall that they were affected by the Darkhold due to that.

 

[Vartha]

The REAL Ophilia died of cancer Remember? That was the whole reason Aida was made to LOOK like her. They were two different beings in existing at one point but the real Ophilia died just before everyone went into the framework

I think AIDA and Ophelia are essentially the same person because AIDA didn't make any changes in the Framework to her own mind before entering the same way she did to the kidnapped SHIELD agents (just like Jemma & Daisy were their true selves in the Framework because AIDA wasn't able to alter their minds) and we've seen that if someone is dead in the real world (Agnes) they can still be alive in the Framework, so AIDA being beheaded didn't stop the transfer of AIDA/Ophelia to the "human" body. Therefore, AIDA's "mind" was infected by the Darkhold, her "mind" was transferred into the Framework in the form of Madame Hydra and now with the creation of HumanAIDA/Ophelia/AIDA3.0/iUsed2BArobot/whatever she will call herself, that Darkhold infection is contained in that mind as well.

As far as anyone else coming through, I'm not sure they will be Darkhold-affected unless they looked at the book. Fitz and Coulson both came through that machine AIDA built previously when they were trapped in another dimension and I don't recall that they were affected by the Darkhold due to that.

 

[Chemistro]

& she can still plug herself into the framework & use them as leverage bringing them into the real world & also Ward but it looks like they also get super powers so this is certainly not over yet

I don't think they get superpowers in general. I think this was specially designed by Fitz for Aida, perhaps using the knowledge that he gained from experimentation on inhumans. I don't remember the exact lines, but I seem to recall he said to her that her body would have some improvements.

 

[Heretic]

The REAL Ophilia died of cancer Remember? That was the whole reason Aida was made to LOOK like her. They were two different beings in existing at one point but the real Ophilia died just before everyone went into the framework

Agnes died of cancer.

Agnes was given a new avatar in the Framework, which was killed by Fitz.

Ophelia seems to be a look alike avatar created to house the AIDA personality.

 

[trich19045]

The REAL Ophilia died of cancer Remember? That was the whole reason Aida was made to LOOK like her. They were two different beings in existing at one point but the real Ophilia died just before everyone went into the framework

That was Agnes, but she was separate from AIDA/Ophelia because that was the woman that Fitz shot in the Framework while Jemma was watching. Ophelia/Madame Hydra in the Framework was the avatar of AIDA.

 

[Chemistro]

The REAL Ophilia died of cancer Remember? That was the whole reason Aida was made to LOOK like her. They were two different beings in existing at one point but the real Ophilia died just before everyone went into the framework

I think trich19045 is saying that Ophelia and Aida are the same person, not Agnes and Aida.

I don't think the physics or metaphysics are fully developed by the writers, but my guess is that they're going to be treated as the same person. It's not clear to me whether a consciousness can actually be transferred in their world. On the basis of what we've seen, it seems to me it's more likely to be a mistake that the characters are making (not deliberate by the writers), and the new person is not the same as Aida (she's mistaken too). But perhaps there is something in the alien tech that explains how that works, and we just don't have the right info to tell.

 

[Chemistro]

are both Aida and Ophilia the same or two different beings?

On the basis of what we've seen, I'd say Aida and Framework Ophelia are the same, but they're probably not the same as new Ophelia. However, she probably does believe she's the same.
That said, I'm not very confident about that because I don't know whether the Darkhold actually permits the transfer of consciousness. I know the characters believe so, but they're making a number of mistakes when it comes to who's real and who isn't, etc., so it's hard to tell whether they're making another mistake on this, or they actually got good info from the Darkhold.

 

[trich19045]

On the basis of what we've seen, I'd say Aida and Framework Ophelia are the same, but they're probably not the same as new Ophelia. However, she probably does believe she's the same.
That said, I'm not very confident about that because I don't know whether the Darkhold actually permits the transfer of consciousness. I know the characters believe so, but they're making a number of mistakes when it comes to who's real and who isn't, etc., so it's hard to tell whether they're making another mistake on this, or they actually got good info from the Darkhold.

I am wondering if something from another dimension intercepted the transmission, for lack of a better phrase, of Ophelia/Madame Hydra's brain, personality and whatever else was sent to live in the new body and has essentially taken over, similar to the Ghost Rider. Robbie Reyes was still Robbie Reyes in mind and body, but he had a roommate. Maybe that's why he is returning to take care of the problem because it's actually now a demonic issue, not an AIDA issue.

 

[Chemistro]

I am wondering if something from another dimension intercepted the transmission, for lack of a better phrase, of Ophelia/Madame Hydra's brain, personality and whatever else was sent to live in the new body and has essentially taken over, similar to the Ghost Rider. Robbie Reyes was still Robbie Reyes in mind and body, but he had a roommate. Maybe that's why he is returning to take care of the problem because it's actually now a demonic issue, not an AIDA issue.

That's an intriguing theory, though I don't know they will further complicate her with an added roommate. Maybe the writers want "Aida" to deal with the consequences of having the full range of human feelings. But your theory is also plausible imo.

Maybe Robbie is trapped in the other dimension, bit he'll be able to come back when they use the machine again - which they very likely will, since Mack is still there -, or he'll come back as you say to deal with something demonic, but the demonic thing hasn't entered their dimension yet, but will do so next time they use it. There are a number of options at this point, but I think it's very likely Mack will come back, maybe with Hope.

 

[trich19045]

That's an intriguing theory, though I don't know they will further complicate her with an added roommate. Maybe the writers want "Aida" to deal with the consequences of having the full range of human feelings. But your theory is also plausible imo.

Maybe Robbie is trapped in the other dimension, bit he'll be able to come back when they use the machine again - which they very likely will, since Mack is still there -, or he'll come back as you say to deal with something demonic, but the demonic thing hasn't entered their dimension yet, but will do so next time they use it. There are a number of options at this point, but I think it's very likely Mack will come back, maybe with Hope.

This would also be a good time to connect a movie with the show by having Doctor Strange (not likely) or Wong (more likely) show up to secure the Darkhold and help take care of anyone still affected by it

 

[Chemistro]

This would also be a good time to connect a movie with the show by having Doctor Strange (not likely) or Wong (more likely) show up to secure the Darkhold and help take care of anyone still affected by it

I hope you're right; I'd like to see a direct connection; we haven't seen one for a while (I'm just not confident they want to connect them, though).

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I'd say that the difference is that in Star Trek, there are actual holograms or whatever created to resemble people and places. That doesn't happen in the Framework. The Framework contains ZERO buildings, ZERO vehicles...no one is actually shooting any guns because there are no guns and there are no people. The ENTIRE existence of the Framework is computer code. Daisy isn't running around with Ward...Daisy isn't actually running at all. Framework Ward isn't an individual...he's part of a computer program.

Regardless...the show will likely take the cheap way out of having Aida or some other villain destroy the Framework, taking the moral dilemma out of our heroes hands. That way you guys won't have to come back here and call the heroes of this show genocidal murderers.

What does it matter if there is a "hologram" in the real world to resemble people and places? Whether it is shown in the real world or the simulated world changes nothing about the "mind" of the artificial people. Like others said, the world might just be code, but if everything in it behaves like it is real, if it is a simulations so close to reality that you can't tell the difference, if the people in it have a free will and emotions and they believe wholeheartedly that their reality is "real", if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Why would that make it any less real?

Unlike video game characters who are programmed to follow some simple rules, these are complex enough to be self aware. To understand that they live in a simulation if provided with proof. They do not have the limitations of simple pieces of code.

In fact, there is nothing that proves that your very own brain isn't just running some very advanced code. We can't tell that the behavior of all living creatures isn't just caused by some extremely advanced biological code that makes us believe we have free will, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Uskok]

Unlike video game characters who are programmed to follow some simple rules, these are complex enough to be self aware. To understand that they live in a simulation if provided with proof. They do not have the limitations of simple pieces of code.

But they are not self aware. They don't know what they really are. The Doctor in Star Trek knows he's just a walking 3D image that can touch people and objects thanks to some technical mumbo jumbo. These guys in the Framework don't know that. They don't "live" in a simulation - they are a simulation. A very advanced simulation, thanks to the Darkhold, but still just a simulation.

 

[OB12]

I cannot believe how good this season has been. Just top notch all the way around. De Caestecker is a tremendously talented actor, he has shown it throughout the seasons but this evil Fitz was really great. Henry Simmons really sold Mack's tough decision; even though he knows Hope isn't real, as a father how could you leave what you perceive to be your child all alone in the world? Just amazing stuff.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Acting wise this episode was amazing. Especially De Caestecker, he always does such an amazing job. I wish he had a chance of an Emmy nom.

The story is getting so redundant though. I rolled my eyes when AIDA teleported Fitz away. I'm so over this.

 

[Vartha]

ah got it. Makes sense now. I was drinking a beer or two lastnight too lol

I think trich19045 is saying that Ophelia and Aida are the same person, not Agnes and Aida.

I don't think the physics or metaphysics are fully developed by the writers, but my guess is that they're going to be treated as the same person. It's not clear to me whether a consciousness can actually be transferred in their world. On the basis of what we've seen, it seems to me it's more likely to be a mistake that the characters are making (not deliberate by the writers), and the new person is not the same as Aida (she's mistaken too). But perhaps there is something in the alien tech that explains how that works, and we just don't have the right info to tell.

 

[tbg]

Im surprised Daisy did not mention to Mack that hope would be fine as regardless when Mack left there would still be a Mack there as evidence by Daisy & Simmons & the group

Mack essentially stole another Macks life

Yet another plot hole unfortunately. Mack says the others have gone back to Kansas but wouldn't their programmed selves still exist in the framework?

 

[IronManOfSteel]

Awesome episode. Really hope Tripp somehow makes it back to the real world - he was always one of my favourite characters

 

[Chemistro]

Im surprised Daisy did not mention to Mack that hope would be fine as regardless when Mack left there would still be a Mack there as evidence by Daisy & Simmons & the group

Mack essentially stole another Macks life

Daisy does not know whether there would be another Mack. When Ward asked her whether Framework Skye would come back if Daisy went back to her world, she said she hoped so, but she didn't know.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Mack won't actually stay there. He'll come to his senses.

After all this crap, Fitz better be the one to kill Aida.

 

[Web-Head]

Mack won't actually stay there. He'll come to his senses.

After all this crap, Fitz better be the one to kill Aida.

I bet it will be.

Also, wanna say that I loved Radcliffe's redemption in last nights episode.

 

[terry78]

They'll probably ask that and someone will say it will kill him. I'm sure Aida put that in there.

 

[samsnee]

The story is getting so redundant though. I rolled my eyes when AIDA teleported Fitz away. I'm so over this.

Agreed. Is next week the finale? The storyline has been good but honestly could have lost a couple of episodes to give a better sense of urgency.

 

[Silvermoon]

Agreed. Is next week the finale? The storyline has been good but honestly could have lost a couple of episodes to give a better sense of urgency.

No, they're not doing a 2 hour finale/not showing eps 21 & 22 back to back like they've sometimes done. Next week will be ep 21 and then the following week should be the season finale.