Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD - Episode 2.20 - "Scars"

[Humbugged]

Yeah, I totally agree that was totally wrong too. I think both sides are jumping the gun. On SHIELD's side or at least nuSHIELD the have only seen people with power do bad things while Jiaying has only seen SHIELD and Hydra do bad things so both halves do have every right to fear the other. But from the looks of it Gonzales did look like he was being genuine with being peaceful. Of course I also did not trust him and I thought out of the two he would of been the first to attack but obviously that was not the case.
Look all that I know from this whole mess is that it totally sucks to be Skye right now.

'SHIELD insists you are INDEX' as a starting point was the Gonzalez position

When you turn up with that as your starting point ,armed to the teeth is neither peaceful nor being willing to compromise

 

[hedgehogvampire]

'SHIELD insists you are INDEX' as a starting point was the Gonzalez position

When you turn up with that as your starting point ,armed to the teeth is neither peaceful nor being willing to compromise

I now that Indexing sounds shady but I don't really understand the process. I know in concepts suppose to protect people from the bad people with powers but I just don't understand why its a bad thing. I could see that it is insulting for the inhumans to be on it since so far they seem pretty peaceful pack. If anything it just sounds more like an annoyance or an inconvenience to them. I could be totally off about that but I don't see how this is a big deal, obviously it is but I just don't get it.

 

[Humbugged]

I now that Indexing sounds shady but I don't really understand the process. I know in concepts suppose to protect people from the bad people with powers but I just don't understand why its a bad thing. I could see that it is insulting for the inhumans to be on it since so far they seem pretty peaceful pack. If anything it just sounds more like an annoyance or an inconvenience to them. I could be totally off about that but I don't see how this is a big deal, obviously it is but I just don't get it.

In the show HYDRA and Cal have both hacked into the INDEX for their own ends .HYDRA used it to harvest 'The Gifted' and were experimenting on them when SHIELD were supposed to be watching them.

And has been proven through history lists like this always end up being corrupted by who is in charge at that specific time

And this was when it was a few juiced freaks or experiments gone wrong .We are now talking about potentially thousands(or tens or hundreds of thousands) of people because of an accident of birth .

And what happens with the mist?

It's a random outcome which is also going to frighten SHIELD.

Does SHIELD then get to stop them going thru(which would mean their extinction) or will SHIELD try telling them who goes thru for their own ends.

 

[hedgehogvampire]

In the show HYDRA and Cal have both hacked into the INDEX for their own ends .HYDRA used it to harvest 'The Gifted' and were experimenting on them when SHIELD were supposed to be watching them.

And has been proven through history lists like this always end up being corrupted by who is in charge at that specific time

And this was when it was a few juiced freaks or experiments gone wrong .We are now talking about potentially thousands(or tens or hundreds of thousands) of people because of an accident of birth .

And what happens with the mist?

It's a random outcome which is also going to frighten SHIELD.

Does SHIELD then get to stop them going thru(which would mean their extinction) or will SHIELD try telling them who goes thru for their own ends.

Ok thanks for explaining. Now Jiayings fears sounds more understandable. I definitely think that by the end of the season that Coulson's half of SHIELD will probably lighten up on the Indexing or just in it all together.

 

[WhiteWalker]

In the show HYDRA and Cal have both hacked into the INDEX for their own ends .HYDRA used it to harvest 'The Gifted' and were experimenting on them when SHIELD were supposed to be watching them.

And has been proven through history lists like this always end up being corrupted by who is in charge at that specific time

And this was when it was a few juiced freaks or experiments gone wrong .We are now talking about potentially thousands(or tens or hundreds of thousands) of people because of an accident of birth .

And what happens with the mist?

It's a random outcome which is also going to frighten SHIELD.

Does SHIELD then get to stop them going thru(which would mean their extinction) or will SHIELD try telling them who goes thru for their own ends.

The first couple of points, I wouldn't argue with. I wouldn't describe the in humans as being accidents of birth though. They were engineered as weapons. Your last point makes no sense because without terrigenisis, they would simply live a normal life, have kids and die.

 

[Humbugged]

The first couple of points, I wouldn't argue with. I wouldn't describe the in humans as being accidents of birth though. They were engineered as weapons. Your last point makes no sense because without terrigenisis, they would simply live a normal life, have kids and die.

But that is their heritage who is anyone else to tell them they can't do it .

It's pretty much like the forced conversions in the Spanish Reconquista .Those who were Jews were still living ,having kids and dying (if the Inquisitor ignored them) but their heritage of thousands of years gets ripped away from them

One group of people should not be deciding that group B should live how they tell them .

 

[WhiteWalker]

But that is their heritage who is anyone else to tell them they can't do it .

It's pretty much like the forced conversions in the Spanish Reconquista .Those who were Jews were still living ,having kids and dying (if the Inquisitor ignored them) but their heritage of thousands of years gets ripped away from them

One group of people should not be deciding that group B should live how they tell them .

You're digressing a bit there. If you had used the word "heritage" in your comment earlier we would not be having this conversation.

 

[Chemistro]

SHIELD are acting out of fear of the unknown as well .Their first reaction was to send bombers.

That was Gonzales's first reaction, not Coulson's, or Morse's. Different agents of SHIELD had different reactions. But that wasn't SHIELD's reaction. SHIELD's first reaction was to send Gonzales to negotiate - a terrible choice of negotiator, but not the same as sending bombers.

 

[Chemistro]

Inhuman response:

On the final couple of points, it's not just over the counter stuff that can be incredibly destructive, it's any organic material. TNT and RDX* are made of Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen. Access to those is impossible to regulate, unless a government feels like restricting access to air, water and plants; and the the chemical reactions required to make them can be done with classroom chemistry equipment that could be made by a relatively skilled glass blower with pretty limited resources.

SHIELD's response:

While I concede our regulations do not provide a perfect defense against that kind of attacks, your argumentation seems to still be based on the lack of bans or restrictions on some things that can be used to cause harm to the public. Were we to accept that rationale, we would have to - for similar reasons - lift all bans and restrictions on C4, machine guns, anti-tank missiles, uranium, smallpox, and so on.
However, such course of action surely would cause great harm to innocent people. Terrorists, lone wolves who attack schools, etc., would be able to do far more harm than they do now.
The fact is that the ritual that you pursue is one that can give instant access to the destructive capability of large amounts of explosives - for example -, and so the regulations and restrictions we have specified earlier are reasonable and well within our governments rights. I have already explained the matter to you in sufficient detail, Ms. Jiaying.
If I have not been able to persuade you, I don't know what else to say. But as long as you are in our territories, you would have to abide by the law.
In the interest of peace, we will allow you and other inhumans not to be indexed as long as they remain in Afterlife (or similar places that you may have), at a safe distance from the rest of the population.

As for the biological weapons, levels of radicalism are inversely proportional to intelligence and education, so very few people with the intellect and knowledge to manipulate bacteria and viruses are likely to cooperate with a terrorist organisation. Instead they are recruited by governments and result in atrocities around the world, because apparently your governments, Agent Gonzales, have as little restraint as you believe we Inhumans do.

[Side note: I'm not agent Gonzales. Agent Gonzales tried to kill Skye. Jiaying could always bring that up. The choice of someone as obviously non-objective as Gonzales because they needed objectivity was irrational. I think Jiaying should have pointed that out and demanded another negotiator. If they don't want to send Coulson, they - i.e., the governments in charge - could send Hill, or Fury, or someone else. Even Coulson and the others could have picked any other senior agent - just one not so obviously biased]

As before, I would say that while our governments do have flaws, it would be just nuts to allow people to make and have biological weapons or the tools to easily make them relying on the view that levels of radicalism are inversely proportional to intelligence and education. That is a general trend, but hardly a law of nature, and the risk is just too great. Or would you actually propose that we lift all bans and restrictions on biological weapons?

As for psychological testing, your whole organisation was rife with terrorists and fascists that your people could not discern and have spent decades hunting my people in an effort to torture and kill us in the name of science. What possible reason do we have to trust your judgement as to our sanity or to have faith that your intentions are truly virtuous. Hydra is clearly alive and well, a fact that poor Lincoln's abduction shows, and others of our people have been similarly hurt. And you want us to have trackers placed on us, to make it easier for us to be found and murdered?

Psychological tests are needed in order to assess whether the person is likely to be a threat if she gains potentially destructive powers.
As for the trackers, they too would be necessary for the protection of the public, and only for those who - after choosing to undergo terrigenesis - end up with a power that warrants that. For that matter, we would also want to know where large amounts of C4 are stored, or where rockets or machine guns are stored (or carried), and there would be strong restrictions on transportation - well, there are.
The trackers will not be needed - as I mentioned - in the case of people like yourself, given your power. But we would need to test a person's powers in order to ascertain the required measures.
As I have explained to you, humans with the potential to acquire dangerous powers through terrigenesis do not have to actually do so, just as people don't have to buy C4, or machine guns, etc. But those who choose to acquire have to abide by the law.
As for the people who already are like that, we would be willing to let them stay in places such as this one, away from the general public, but we would need to have checkpoints, and if they leave this places, they would have to be tracked, as we would track, say, a cyborg with lethal powers.
If your concern is Hydra, those people who require trackers may remain in places like this, or may request a SHIELD escort - which we will provide. We can't guarantee their safety from Hydra, but at least we can reduce the risk significantly, and again, they have the choice of remaining in places such as this, which we can protect from Hydra. Alternatively, if they pass the tests, they can join SHIELD and fight against Hydra, to protect both humans and inhumans.

With regard to the previous infiltration by Hydra, that was a huge blow I concede, but let me remind you that - after some temporary difficulties - we have the backing of the governments of the countries you choose to live in. Your challenge now seems to be a challenge to the legitimacy of the governments to pass laws banning or restricting dangerous substances or procedures, or more generally the legitimacy of our governments. Is that your position?

You claim to be charged with protecting your people, well I am charged with protecting mine, and I will not allow a glorified police force rife with dirty cops near my people.

I don't know that you speak in the name of all inhumans, let alone in the name of all humans with genes that would allow them to become inhumans. But in any event, let me remind you that we're charged by the governments of our countries to protect the population of those countries.
If you and other inhumans had a territory of their own, we would not be in a position to impose restrictions within that territory. All of the restrictions we intend to impose are restrictions within the territory of our countries.

But if I can't persuade you, let me ask you a different question: if you choose to live among the population of our countries while openly disobey our laws, our governments will reasonably take action. Don't you think that the rest of the people you claim to be charged with protecting - whether humans with the genes in question or inhumans - should get to decide whether to follow you down that road, or be on the Index as explained?

N.B. I don't know how much I'm stretching Jiaying's knowledge of the fall of SHIELD or how much was released by Black Widow or the governments involved. Also, I went back to check the implication that there was somewhere other than Afterlife that the Inhumans lived, and I think I was jumping to conclusions.

I think there may be other places similar to Afterlife, with other elders in charge. But the evidence points to inhumans being born and living among humans, not in an inhuman territory (at least, the group of inhumans Jiaying knows about).

 

[fixxxer]

Haven't had too much free time off late. A new baby will do that to ya.

Finally caught up and quickly wanted to pop in to say... what a fantastic episode it was! I think I've said this thrice in a row, but best episode of the series thus far. I thought the moment of season 1 was when they get the transmission that simply read HAIL HYDRA. The moment of season 2 (thus far) was Jiaying putting the kibosh on Gonzales. Just stunning. To me it came out of nowhere but still made perfect sense. Perfectly executed, IMO.

Also, caught up on this thread and the level of discourse/debate is just through the roof. Just some terrific terrific posts in here. Chemistro, Seb and some other folks are absolutely killing it!

 

[Seb]

Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen are not organic material.

Elemental Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen are not technically 'organic', however all organic material contains Hydrogen and Carbon in molecular form, and pretty much all also contains Oxygen and Nitrogen atoms in those molecules. Those four elements are the backbone of life on Earth, and every complex organism contains all four, and with some care and finesse they can all be separated and used to create pretty much any molecule you want. In fact, organic chemistry is the sphere of chemistry dealing with the reactions of carbon based molecules, and these molecules are often naturally occurring and sourced from living or once living things.

 

[Seb]

SHIELD's response:

While I concede our regulations do not provide a perfect defense against that kind of attacks, your argumentation seems to still be based on the lack of bans or restrictions on some things that can be used to cause harm to the public. Were we to accept that rationale, we would have to - for similar reasons - lift all bans and restrictions on C4, machine guns, anti-tank missiles, uranium, smallpox, and so on.
However, such course of action surely would cause great harm to innocent people. Terrorists, lone wolves who attack schools, etc., would be able to do far more harm than they do now.
The fact is that the ritual that you pursue is one that can give instant access to the destructive capability of large amounts of explosives - for example -, and so the regulations and restrictions we have specified earlier are reasonable and well within our governments rights. I have already explained the matter to you in sufficient detail, Ms. Jiaying.
If I have not been able to persuade you, I don't know what else to say. But as long as you are in our territories, you would have to abide by the law.
In the interest of peace, we will allow you and other inhumans not to be indexed as long as they remain in Afterlife (or similar places that you may have), at a safe distance from the rest of the population.

You would register us for having the same capabilties as your smartest people. We have the capacity to do many things, but you assume that we will use them against you. You regulate the creation of this horrible things, to some extent, but people are still able to create them, as are we. Our powers have not been used to hurt others, and we deal with those very rare few that do [inferred from the fact that Jiaying went after the lady with the crazy mind-control daughter, but was beaten to it by SHIELD]. You claim to regulate dangerous things, and yet your country [assuming negotiator is from the US] would rather regulate those who are different than those who buy guns.

Your Iron Man wanders the world, imposing his own vision of justice, and how do you control him? Or the God Thor? Your Hulk has killed hundreds, and yet you allow him to roam free. Why do you not hunt him?

You offer to allow us to remain free.

Perhaps we would be better off apart from you.

[I could honestly see this as being an end goal for Jiaying, separating her people from the dangers of humanity.]

[Side note: I'm not agent Gonzales. Agent Gonzales tried to kill Skye. Jiaying could always bring that up. The choice of someone as obviously non-objective as Gonzales because they needed objectivity was irrational. I think Jiaying should have pointed that out and demanded another negotiator. If they don't want to send Coulson, they - i.e., the governments in charge - could send Hill, or Fury, or someone else. Even Coulson and the others could have picked any other senior agent - just one not so obviously biased]

As before, I would say that while our governments do have flaws, it would be just nuts to allow people to make and have biological weapons or the tools to easily make them relying on the view that levels of radicalism are inversely proportional to intelligence and education. That is a general trend, but hardly a law of nature, and the risk is just too great. Or would you actually propose that we lift all bans and restrictions on biological weapons?

No, I simply suggest that you think yourselves above your own laws. You do not want individuals to wield power that your governments toss about willy nilly, killing each other by the droves in petty conflicts.

Psychological tests are needed in order to assess whether the person is likely to be a threat if she gains potentially destructive powers.
As for the trackers, they too would be necessary for the protection of the public, and only for those who - after choosing to undergo terrigenesis - end up with a power that warrants that. For that matter, we would also want to know where large amounts of C4 are stored, or where rockets or machine guns are stored (or carried), and there would be strong restrictions on transportation - well, there are.
The trackers will not be needed - as I mentioned - in the case of people like yourself, given your power. But we would need to test a person's powers in order to ascertain the required measures.
As I have explained to you, humans with the potential to acquire dangerous powers through terrigenesis do not have to actually do so, just as people don't have to buy C4, or machine guns, etc. But those who choose to acquire have to abide by the law.
As for the people who already are like that, we would be willing to let them stay in places such as this one, away from the general public, but we would need to have checkpoints, and if they leave this places, they would have to be tracked, as we would track, say, a cyborg with lethal powers.
If your concern is Hydra, those people who require trackers may remain in places like this, or may request a SHIELD escort - which we will provide. We can't guarantee their safety from Hydra, but at least we can reduce the risk significantly, and again, they have the choice of remaining in places such as this, which we can protect from Hydra. Alternatively, if they pass the tests, they can join SHIELD and fight against Hydra, to protect both humans and inhumans.

With regard to the previous infiltration by Hydra, that was a huge blow I concede, but let me remind you that - after some temporary difficulties - we have the backing of the governments of the countries you choose to live in. Your challenge now seems to be a challenge to the legitimacy of the governments to pass laws banning or restricting dangerous substances or procedures, or more generally the legitimacy of our governments. Is that your position?

Is my position that your governments hold no sway over my people? Perhaps. We are not codified within your laws, we have existed longer than most of your countries, yet you wish to control us, to treat us like animals because you are scared children with guns, afraid that the big dogs will bite you because a cat scratched you in the past.

Our people have managed this long to police our own. There has been one case in living memory of a killer Inhuman - and trust me, I have been alive for a long time - and she was not approved by us for terrigenesis. How many times have your people handed a gun to someone who misused it? We understand far better than you, it would seem, who should and should not be allowed to have powers.

I don't know that you speak in the name of all inhumans, let alone in the name of all humans with genes that would allow them to become inhumans. But in any event, let me remind you that we're charged by the governments of our countries to protect the population of those countries.
If you and other inhumans had a territory of their own, we would not be in a position to impose restrictions within that territory. All of the restrictions we intend to impose are restrictions within the territory of our countries.

But if I can't persuade you, let me ask you a different question: if you choose to live among the population of our countries while openly disobey our laws, our governments will reasonably take action. Don't you think that the rest of the people you claim to be charged with protecting - whether humans with the genes in question or inhumans - should get to decide whether to follow you down that road, or be on the Index as explained?

Of course some of them will acquiesce. Would you not expect most people to allow their blood to be taken from them, for a tracer to be implanted within them, if I stood over them with a gun, with a plane covered in guns. With a dozen or more planes?

You come here speaking of peace, but what you want is to control us through fear. How does that make you any different from Hydra.

I think there may be other places similar to Afterlife, with other elders in charge. But the evidence points to inhumans being born and living among humans, not in an inhuman territory (at least, the group of inhumans Jiaying knows about).

[Honestly, if this discussion were to go any further, I expect Jiaying would pull out the terrigen crystal. Because as amusing as this discussion is, it assumes rational negotiators without the accompanying emotions. Also, I don't know enough about the Inhumans' culture to fully be able to represent their viewpoint, or how the majority of the populace would act, since we've only really seen Gordon, Jiaying and Lincoln as educated Inhumans, with Skye and Raina as the Inhuman equivalent of Muggle-borns]

 

[WhiteWalker]

Elemental Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen are not technically 'organic', however all organic material contains Hydrogen and Carbon in molecular form, and pretty much all also contains Oxygen and Nitrogen atoms in those molecules. Those four elements are the backbone of life on Earth, and every complex organism contains all four, and with some care and finesse they can all be separated and used to create pretty much any molecule you want. In fact, organic chemistry is the sphere of chemistry dealing with the reactions of carbon based molecules, and these molecules are often naturally occurring and sourced from living or once living things.

Fair enough, however it begs the question, why? Like you say, organic molecules can be separated into their elements, and these elements could be used to make other molecules. If the goal is to build a molecule comprising of four of the most abundant elements on earth. Why would you want to go through the hassle. I'll freely admit, I'm no chemist, and I may be out of my depth here. Seems to me there are much easier ways to get what you need, and in larger quantities, than by breaking the molecular bonds of any organic compound. Just last week I picked up a tank of oxygen for my torch; 50 bucks.

 

[Seb]

Fair enough, however it begs the question, why? Like you say, organic molecules can be separated into their elements, and these elements could be used to make other molecules. If the goal is to build a molecule comprising of four of the most abundant elements on earth. Why would you want to go through the hassle. I'll freely admit, I'm no chemist, and I may be out of my depth here. Seems to me there are much easier ways to get what you need, and in larger quantities, than by breaking the molecular bonds of any organic compound. Just last week I picked up a tank of oxygen for my torch; 50 bucks.

Because when you want to alter chemicals in order to make different chemicals, you have to break molecular bonds. Oxygen is O=O (two oxygen atoms bonded together with a double bond). Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatoms, while Carbon is general found either in something like coal, diamond, or in organic molecules. Nitrogen is incredibly hard to separate (it makes up 80% of the air and is largely inert at room temperature because the molecular bonds are so strong) so it's easier to bond into the molecules you want by using the more weakly bonded atoms in organic molecules. Oxygen and Hydrogen on the other hand are so volatile that you can't use them in a reaction (particularly Hydrogen); the Hindenburg disaster is an example of what happens when large quantities of Hydrogen get going on their own.

Instead, we use the middle ground of organic chemicals, because the bonds can be broken and reformed in different arrangements predictably and controllably so long as you use the correct temperature, reagents (the chemicals involved) and ratios. Knowing how to do this makes it possible to make pretty much any chemical you want, from perfume to petrol to TNT to sugar; and that's just the organic stuff.

The core of it is that most of the chemicals we make, all of pharmaceuticals, a lot of food manufacture, all sorts, relies on the manipulation of chemical bonds within molecules in order to change one chemical into a different more useful chemical, whether you want to unsaturate the fats in your butter or make some TNT to help you mine a mountain, it's all the same at its core.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Because when you want to alter chemicals in order to make different chemicals, you have to break molecular bonds. Oxygen is O=O (two oxygen atoms bonded together with a double bond). Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatoms, while Carbon is general found either in something like coal, diamond, or in organic molecules. Nitrogen is incredibly hard to separate (it makes up 80% of the air and is largely inert at room temperature because the molecular bonds are so strong) so it's easier to bond into the molecules you want by using the more weakly bonded atoms in organic molecules. Oxygen and Hydrogen on the other hand are so volatile that you can't use them in a reaction (particularly Hydrogen); the Hindenburg disaster is an example of what happens when large quantities of Hydrogen get going on their own.

Instead, we use the middle ground of organic chemicals, because the bonds can be broken and reformed in different arrangements predictably and controllably so long as you use the correct temperature, reagents (the chemicals involved) and ratios. Knowing how to do this makes it possible to make pretty much any chemical you want, from perfume to petrol to TNT to sugar; and that's just the organic stuff.

The core of it is that most of the chemicals we make, all of pharmaceuticals, a lot of food manufacture, all sorts, relies on the manipulation of chemical bonds within molecules in order to change one chemical into a different more useful chemical, whether you want to unsaturate the fats in your butter or make some TNT to help you mine a mountain, it's all the same at its core.

Okay, I think I understand what you mean. Would a good analogy be like mixing oil and water using an emulsifier?

 

[Chemistro]

You would register us for having the same capabilties as your smartest people. We have the capacity to do many things, but you assume that we will use them against you. You regulate the creation of this horrible things, to some extent, but people are still able to create them, as are we. Our powers have not been used to hurt others, and we deal with those very rare few that do [inferred from the fact that Jiaying went after the lady with the crazy mind-control daughter, but was beaten to it by SHIELD]. You claim to regulate dangerous things, and yet your country [assuming negotiator is from the US] would rather regulate those who are different than those who buy guns.

SHIELD:

Suppose that the leader of a group that is stockpiling machine guns, assault rifles, hand grenades, and C4, tells the government "You would register [or even "you would imprison"] us for having the same capabilities as your smartest people", and then protest because they were arrested. Surely, that would not fly. They would be imprisoned for stockpiling those materials, not for a potentiality for making weapons of difficult realization.
Now suppose that someone who wants to build rockets and large amounts of explosives says "You would register us for having the same capabilities as your smartest people". Surely, that would not fly. They would be registered if they want to buy those amounts of explosives.
In fact, if some inhumans have the same capabilities as our smartest people - namely, a similar level of intelligence and knowledge -, we would not have any problem with that.
We would register those who choose to undergo terrigenesis, potentially acquiring massively destructive capabilities. And we would veto some of them for going through with it in our territories, or entering our territories later if they do it elsewhere. In those cases of those who do undergo terrigenesis - or who did it already - we would test them in order to see what level of restrictions - if needed - to their movements while in our countries we need to establish and/or what sort of tracking.
As for whether you used your powers so far to cause damage, we now have a confirmed case in Bahrain (and we didn't see any successful attempt on your part to stop it), but there is no telling how many of the incidents that happened over centuries and millennia involved inhumans.
As for what our countries do, it depends on the country, but it's clear that the US does regulate and restricts access to guns. People generally aren't allowed to go and but, say, a 30 millimeters automatic gun, or a 105 mm gun, or even an assault rifle.
Regulations on firearms allow for greater access in some of the countries we represent in this meeting (such as the US) than in others (e.g., UK, China, Canada). But the fact that the US and its states have loosen restrictions on many firearms than other countries does not make the restrictions imposed in those countries - even in the US - on having guns (some of which I pointed out above), illegitimate.
Also, let me point out that even when it comes to guns of small firepower, in nearly all of the US there is a need for a special permit and registration if a person wants to carry them concealed.
So, the powers some of you acquire are far more capable of destruction than most if not all guns that are banned from public usage in the US, and even in the case of guns that are small and allowed for public usage, in most states those who have those guns have to either register and pass some test (concealed carry permit), or carry them openly, so that other people can see that they have those guns.
Granted, there are a few states that allow carrying some guns in a concealed way without a permit. While not all of us agree with such policies - personally, I do not -, the fact is that such policies do not make the restrictions imposed on the same guns by other states, or the restrictions imposed everywhere in the US on more powerful guns, illegitimate.
Imagine that someone is arrested in the US for having a stockpile of military-grade banned guns. If they were to demand that the judge dismiss the case because some smaller guns are allowed (or less restricted), surely the judge ought to reject the demand for dismissal.

Your Iron Man wanders the world, imposing his own vision of justice, and how do you control him? Or the God Thor? Your Hulk has killed hundreds, and yet you allow him to roam free. Why do you not hunt him?

We do attempt to track any Asgardians or other aliens on Earth. Sometimes, we are unable to do so due to their capabilities, but that's not a choice on our part.
As for Thor, he is on the Index. [ETA; I'm not sure whether there is a separate Index - or whatever is called - for Asgardians and other aliens, or it's is the same Index. I'm assuming the same Index just to simplify, but if it's a separate one, this part of the reply should be modified accordingly. The crux of the reply is the same, though: there is a database (the same or a separate one) with information about Thor, Sif, Loki (not really an Asgardian but SHIELD doesn't know that), Lorelei, etc., they and other Asgardians are studied and tracked within the capabilities of SHIELD, etc.]
We have studied Thor's powers within the limits of our capabilities, and we do keep an eye on him, as least within what's possible. Unfortunately, that's not so easy to do. Fortunately, he's proving to be on the side of protecting our population, but even then, we had to study him first - and again, we still do try to track him.
As for the Hulk, he is on the Index of course, and we do track him with possible.
Iron Man is not on the Index because Stark does not have any powers of his own - but Steve Rogers is -, but we do keep an eye on his technologies - or try to. Still, he does have political power, so you have a point that he is not controlled as much as he should be. But as before, the fact that our laws and system are imperfect and we fail to regulate or restrict all that we should does not make the restrictions and regulations that we do have in place illegitimate. Your objection here is based on a rationale that would simply apply to any regulations of dangerous materials, as I have pointed out earlier in our exchange.

You offer to allow us to remain free.

We offer to allow you to remain non-indexed despite the fact that you are in the territory of our countries, as long as you remain in Afterlife, or similar places that are not close to cities or other areas populated by people other than those in your group.
We also allow the people of your group who are citizens of our countries to live in those countries, and in most cases travel around them with considerable freedom, even if with some restrictions which vary from person to person depending on their powers and their behavior, and provided that they abide by the laws I'm explaining.

Perhaps we would be better off apart from you.

Perhaps you would be, I will grant you that.
Other inhumans or humans with the potential to become inhumans if exposed to the mist may or may not share the same view. We allow them to make that choice for themselves.

[I could honestly see this as being an end goal for Jiaying, separating her people from the dangers of humanity.]

[That's a plausible theory. But there is no way she can achieve that. Her plan endangers the lives of those she wants to protect.

Side note: When they are born, they are humans - just with some specific genes, but genetically they're almost identical to other humans (with the differences that one can expect within a species), and their physiology is also human physiology.
So, if inhumans are indeed another species, they are inhumans only after terrigenesis, which results in a massive genetic change - but gametes are not affected, so it's not clear that even then they're a different species.

So, most of her people are actually humans - or else, inhumans are not a different species. ]

No, I simply suggest that you think yourselves above your own laws. You do not want individuals to wield power that your governments toss about willy nilly, killing each other by the droves in petty conflicts.

Actually, governments supporting SHIELD are not at war with each other, but you're right the governments are flawed.
But again, the point remains that in spite of those flaws, our governments legitimately regulate and restrict access to a number of weapons and other dangerous things. The argument you're making here is based on a challenge to the authority and/or legitimacy of our governments in general, and might as well be raised by the leader of any small fringe religious our ideological group stockpiling dangerous materials. The argument would and should be rejected in their case too.

Is my position that your governments hold no sway over my people? Perhaps. We are not codified within your laws, we have existed longer than most of your countries, yet you wish to control us, to treat us like animals because you are scared children with guns, afraid that the big dogs will bite you because a cat scratched you in the past.

But we're not trying to treat you "like animals" (well, we're all animals, but that aside).
We're trying to regulate how people behave in our own territories, for the protection of the public. And our laws do provide for situations like this - the Index is legal.
The fact that specifically inhuman beings are not mentioned is not a difficulty. For that matter, we don't have a catalog of alien species in our laws, either. But it's of course within our jurisdiction to regulate alien activities within our countries, and we do so within our capabilities.
Moreover, most of the people in your community are humans (even if they want do become inhuman), and more importantly, they are citizens of our country. They are given protections under the law - like other people -, and they have obligations too.
For example, if we find that a small religious movement has existed for thousands of years, living in huding, our governments are not going to exempt them from the laws regulating acquisition and use of weapons or other dangerous materials in our territories just on account of the fact that they have lived in hiding so far - and we have good reasons for that.

Our people have managed this long to police our own. There has been one case in living memory of a killer Inhuman - and trust me, I have been alive for a long time - and she was not approved by us for terrigenesis. How many times have your people handed a gun to someone who misused it? We understand far better than you, it would seem, who should and should not be allowed to have powers.

Those were too cases (Eva and Katya), but that aside, we simply have no idea how many of the incidents that involved people with powers for thousands of years involved inhumans. Nor do we know how many involved, say, Asgardians. But we do track Asgardians - and we did so even when we only knew of one incident involving a hostile one - if we can, as a reasonable precaution. And we tracked Kree even if we didn't know of any previous incidents involving the Kree - and again, that's a reasonable precaution.
Let me put it from another perspective: psychologically, inhumans are no different from humans except perhaps in that some of them may have extra senses - but that's like the difference between a deaf human and one with hearing; i.e., not a relevant one here.
In fact, inhumans were humans - even from the perspective of their senses -, and so psychologically identical to humans, and then they got powers. Humans getting acquiring powerful weapons or other devices capable of such destruction are things that require strict regulation. And humans becoming inhumans are examples of those.

Of course some of them will acquiesce. Would you not expect most people to allow their blood to be taken from them, for a tracer to be implanted within them, if I stood over them with a gun, with a plane covered in guns. With a dozen or more planes?

Actually, our only 3 planes are on the ground. But we can remove them if that's the problem. And they may remain here, and out of the Index.
However, if they choose to mingle with the rest of the population of our territories, they first need to register, be assessed, etc.

You come here speaking of peace, but what you want is to control us through fear. How does that make you any different from Hydra.

Ms. Jiaying, it is not true that we want to control you through fear. We want to protect our population. And Hydra didn't want to control you to fear, either. They wanted to experiment on you, replicate your powers for themselves, control you through brainwashing if needed, etc. Our behavior is not like that of Hydra.

[Honestly, if this discussion were to go any further, I expect Jiaying would pull out the terrigen crystal. Because as amusing as this discussion is, it assumes rational negotiators without the accompanying emotions. Also, I don't know enough about the Inhumans' culture to fully be able to represent their viewpoint, or how the majority of the populace would act, since we've only really seen Gordon, Jiaying and Lincoln as educated Inhumans, with Skye and Raina as the Inhuman equivalent of Muggle-borns]

[Originally, I was replying to metaphysician's post, in which he gave some reasons in support of the position of the inhuman community in question - though he or she correctly pointed out that Jiaying didn't bother with good arguments.
My reply was and is meant to give reasons in support of SHIELD's position, and yes, I'm playing the role of a rational envoy. it's what one might expect from a diplomat, or maybe even Coulson or Hill. I don't think either most SHIELD leaders or Jiaying have behaved rationally so far, and I would expect her behavior at least to become even more irrational as the situation unfolds. I'm not sure which way SHIELD leaders will go.]

 

[the dmg]

What a great episode. So many things to take in and I can't wait for the finale.

Cal is still awesome and the fact that he took three vials and will be "hostage" is going to be crazy. I can't wait. I hope he doesn't die.

Raina still making that power play even if she was right in that Jaiying would be enticing war. Skye with that line to May, and Coulson really saying the Inhumans aren't people, damn.

Ward finally got his Quinjet and now have Bobbi.

That scene with Coulson, Hunter, and Fitz was great. "I think we've been spending way too much time with each other."

I could say a lot more about the episode, but most of it has been discussed already.

 

[Seb]

Okay, I think I understand what you mean. Would a good analogy be like mixing oil and water using an emulsifier?

Not really. If you mix oil and water, the molecules remain separate, and after a time will separate back out into two layers, one of each liquid. Chemical reactions tend to be irreversible under normal conditions (reversing them requires pretty extreme conditions like high heat and pressure). Most of the chemical reactions we use in everyday life are to burn things (oxygenating stuff, because oxygen will bond with almost anything). For example, petrol molecules are a short chain of carbon atoms bonded to hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom in there. When you burn it, oxygen latches on to everything, replacing the bonds between the atoms in the petrol molecules, making CO2 and H2O. Those carbon dioxide molecules and water molecules won't turn back into petrol until they are absorbed by plants, turned into sugar, the plant dies and ends up deep enough underground for there to be crazy levels of heat and pressure (and it'll need perfect amounts of each.

Essentially, a chemical reaction changes one thing into another thing, which we have to do if we want things to work differently. Sugar, petrol, aspirin and plastic all contain the same elements, but they are arranged differently, so they behave completely differently, and we can mess with those bonds to turn one into another.

I honestly don't know how well I'm explaining this stuff, or how far you took chemistry at school (i.e. how much you already know), or what it is exactly I should be trying to explain. It might be easier to just search 'chemical reaction' in Google and read the Wikipedia article, if that is what you wanted to know about, but feel free to keep asking if I'm actually managing to help semi-coherently.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Not really. If you mix oil and water, the molecules remain separate, and after a time will separate back out into two layers, one of each liquid. Chemical reactions tend to be irreversible under normal conditions (reversing them requires pretty extreme conditions like high heat and pressure). Most of the chemical reactions we use in everyday life are to burn things (oxygenating stuff, because oxygen will bond with almost anything). For example, petrol molecules are a short chain of carbon atoms bonded to hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom in there. When you burn it, oxygen latches on to everything, replacing the bonds between the atoms in the petrol molecules, making CO2 and H2O. Those carbon dioxide molecules and water molecules won't turn back into petrol until they are absorbed by plants, turned into sugar, the plant dies and ends up deep enough underground for there to be crazy levels of heat and pressure (and it'll need perfect amounts of each.

Essentially, a chemical reaction changes one thing into another thing, which we have to do if we want things to work differently. Sugar, petrol, aspirin and plastic all contain the same elements, but they are arranged differently, so they behave completely differently, and we can mess with those bonds to turn one into another.

I honestly don't know how well I'm explaining this stuff, or how far you took chemistry at school (i.e. how much you already know), or what it is exactly I should be trying to explain. It might be easier to just search 'chemical reaction' in Google and read the Wikipedia article, if that is what you wanted to know about, but feel free to keep asking if I'm actually managing to help semi-coherently.

I have a basic understanding and I'm understanding your explaination. My oil and water comment was just an over simplified analogy of using something unrelated to promote a desired outcome. It was not meant as direct comparison.

 

[YourNameHere]

Hello everyone. I don't want to jump into this elaborate discussion. I just want to share one thing I am a little confused about. There has been a debate whether SHIELD - since its fall as a big international organisation - has some jurisdiction or is just a group of well organised vigilantes. In other words, whether it has support of government(s) (I find it kinda funny to imagine government in my country in this context, but that's just a side note). Someone pointed out correctly, that it needs to have some support, because some funds Fury hid might be enough to run a base with a few dozen people for some time, but hardly anything bigger - and you can't fuel a hellicarrier with righteousness and enthusiasm. So let's say it's obvious that SHIELD even in it's current form must be backed by some government. But I find it very unlikely that both recently rival fractions had this support and if only one had it, than the whole question who is the true SHIELD would be solved very easily...
And one more thing - at the beginning of the thread there were several posts about Asgardians speaking English. This caught my attention too - I can imagine Thor getting some quick lesson before travelling to Earth (although it would need to be very quick given the circumstances), but Jane Foster had no trouble speaking with Asgardians as well, so they obviously need to understand each other. I found that little weird.

 

[ralphuniverse]

Gday

Asgardians are if not immortal then very old. Thousands of years. They have had many dealings with Earth over the centuries. Plenty of time and opportunity to learn English.
Ralph

Hello everyone. I don't want to jump into this elaborate discussion. I just want to share one thing I am a little confused about. There has been a debate whether SHIELD - since its fall as a big international organisation - has some jurisdiction or is just a group of well organised vigilantes. In other words, whether it has support of government(s) (I find it kinda funny to imagine government in my country in this context, but that's just a side note). Someone pointed out correctly, that it needs to have some support, because some funds Fury hid might be enough to run a base with a few dozen people for some time, but hardly anything bigger - and you can't fuel a hellicarrier with righteousness and enthusiasm. So let's say it's obvious that SHIELD even in it's current form must be backed by some government. But I find it very unlikely that both recently rival fractions had this support and if only one had it, than the whole question who is the true SHIELD would be solved very easily...
And one more thing - at the beginning of the thread there were several posts about Asgardians speaking English. This caught my attention too - I can imagine Thor getting some quick lesson before travelling to Earth (although it would need to be very quick given the circumstances), but Jane Foster had no trouble speaking with Asgardians as well, so they obviously need to understand each other. I found that little weird.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Hello everyone. I don't want to jump into this elaborate discussion. I just want to share one thing I am a little confused about. There has been a debate whether SHIELD - since its fall as a big international organisation - has some jurisdiction or is just a group of well organised vigilantes. In other words, whether it has support of government(s) (I find it kinda funny to imagine government in my country in this context, but that's just a side note). Someone pointed out correctly, that it needs to have some support, because some funds Fury hid might be enough to run a base with a few dozen people for some time, but hardly anything bigger - and you can't fuel a hellicarrier with righteousness and enthusiasm. So let's say it's obvious that SHIELD even in it's current form must be backed by some government. But I find it very unlikely that both recently rival fractions had this support and if only one had it, than the whole question who is the true SHIELD would be solved very easily...
And one more thing - at the beginning of the thread there were several posts about Asgardians speaking English. This caught my attention too - I can imagine Thor getting some quick lesson before travelling to Earth (although it would need to be very quick given the circumstances), but Jane Foster had no trouble speaking with Asgardians as well, so they obviously need to understand each other. I found that little weird.

I've mentioned the money trail on numerous occasions. Usually when the subject of the world council is brought up. It never gets much debate, probably because nobody wants to speculate on anything so mundane as finances. I mean it's way sexier to think of a place like "AFTERLIFE" being this autonomous little community tucked up in the mountains of Tibet, or some such place. But don't these people have jobs? How do they survive? Where are the grocery stores? They are a race of people in a community with only one road in or out, Gordon! He must be busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Nobody wants to discuss it because it's boring. The writers know this; They leave S**t out of the narrative, knowing the audience is perfectly willing to suspend its disbelief. But give them a contradiction or retcon and all hell breaks loose.

 

[Seb]

Unless I'm missing something, last we heard SHIELD went from outright fugitives to tolerated by the US military. I haven't seen anything that suggests they have actual jurisdiction back, so I'd assume that they don't until we are told otherwise. As for funding, as WhiteWalker said, it's boring so we're ignoring it.

 

[YourNameHere]

Unless I'm missing something, last we heard SHIELD went from outright fugitives to tolerated by the US military. I haven't seen anything that suggests they have actual jurisdiction back, so I'd assume that they don't until we are told otherwise. As for funding, as WhiteWalker said, it's boring so we're ignoring it.

You are right, we were never told otherwise, it just seems quite unlikely. But if it is so, I'm afraid SHIELD really has no jurisdiction and their only approach should be "we help where we can, but can't demand anything"...
And you as well as WhiteWalker are right that the matter of funding is kinda boring, but it's useful to put things into context. But maybe it' too "real world" for this kind of show - no offence meant, I really like the show.

 

[mr. peasant]

Though their actions during Age of Ultron probably bought them a fair amount of good will; at the very least from the public.