Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD - 3x04 - "Devils You Know" - Discussion Thread

[SirStrangefolk]

Some people think that Werner's scared look was his reaction to his first time killing a man. That would make sense, if he had ran away, but he did not. Instead he hid in front of a parked car across the street as he watches the building explode in fright. If he had actually killed Andrew, we would have seen him run away from the building and not run to the nearest vehicle and hide in front of it.

I had the feeling it was intended at least that we thought he ducked behind the car for cover, because the store was going to explode.

 

[<(o_o)>]

1st... andrew could have become lash AFTER the events of the season 2 finale... that explains the "so was he always lash ?!" question...

and 2nd... lash might be andrew's split personality... like green goblin from teh original spiderman movies

If Andrew is Lash did he already know about Inhumans beforehand to develop such feelings of hatred towards them to want them dead, or did Andrew find out everything he knows after the fact when he was transformed by possibly taking terrigen laced fish oil capsules?

Maybe Andrew could have went through terrigenisis years ago & maintained control of his transformations for years until more & more random Inhumans started popping up & whomever he is working for gave Lash orders to hunt down all these random Inhumans.

 

[Chemistro]

so its looking like andrew then.

Not to me, not at all, for all of the reasons I've been giving.

 

[Demileto]

He doesn't have to care a lot, just enough not to kill people casually just because he's pissed.

Caring about people isn't the only reason for a psychopathic Andrew not to kill people casually just because he's pissed, he could very well think it's not worth the effort because of the potential exposure gratuitous murder could bring to him.

In fact, now that you mention it, have we ever seen Andrew being emotional? I daresay we haven't, every time we've seen him he's always been his suave self, so he could very well have been a psychopath all this time and we didn't notice it because we were too enthralled by his awesome suaveness.

That aside, another reason why it seems it's not Andrew is how he reacted to Daisy: In 3.01, he didn't seem to even notice her, and went straight for Lincoln - indicating he did not know Daisy was an inhuman. Andrew would have known.

Actually I disagree about this, he went straight to Lincoln because that's who he wanted to kill, he ignored Daisy entirely for the same reason he did in 3.04: he had no interest in her death.

Some people think that Werner's scared look was his reaction to his first time killing a man. That would make sense, if he had ran away, but he did not. Instead he hid in front of a parked car across the street as he watches the building explode in fright. If he had actually killed Andrew, we would have seen him run away from the building and not run to the nearest vehicle and hide in front of it.

Obviously that's what the showrunners wanted us to believe, they wanted us to focus on "OMG WARD KILLED ANDREW! THAT BASTARD! DIE WARD DIE!" and ignore the potential twist of Andrew being Lash entirely until the timing was right for them to reveal it. Which, frankly, can't be that long, since we have Alexander as a witness to what really happened in the store and he'll be featured in 3.06 alongside Andrew himself.

 

[Chemistro]

Actually I disagree about this, he went straight to Lincoln because that's who he wanted to kill, he ignored Daisy entirely for the same reason he did in 3.04: he had no interest in her death.

Two points:

1. That's not a good reason to ignore her, since she can use her power against him. He just didn't seem to realize she was an inhuman, and seemed surprised when she used her power.
2. Lash only ignored Daisy until she prevented him from killing Lincoln. Then, he did attack her. But Mack shot him, so he retreated, then he came back, knocked Mack out, and attacked both Daisy and Lincoln. But she stopped him again. Maybe that's why he didn't want to kill her in 3.04 - she already proved herself worthy in his eyes, by surviving his attack.

That aside, as before, I would ask: what might be the motivation for Andrew's killing spree, if that's Andrew?
It's not to get back with May, for the reasons I listed before - you rejected one of them, point 2; I disagree, but even leaving point 2 aside, the rest of the points stand.

Do you know of any plausible motivation for Andrew's behavior?

 

[Demileto]

Do you know of any plausible motivation for Andrew's behavior?

If it was clear cut already this would be a boring and predictable show, it's the fact that we don't know that makes it so intriguing a twist.

 

[Delwin]

There is an option that Lash in human version has not been introduced yet. Judging from the shadows - he seems to be relatively (?) small. Andrew seems to be a bigger guy (not height but build). On the other hand - Daisy is May's friend and Andrew's patient: it might be a motive why not kill her which would make Lash actions more understandable.

I do not know how the story develops but e.g. Coulson/Rosalind hidden (from both sides) romance could be hillarious...

 

[Mike Murdock]

Some people think that Werner's scared look was his reaction to his first time killing a man. That would make sense, if he had ran away, but he did not. Instead he hid in front of a parked car across the street as he watches the building explode in fright. If he had actually killed Andrew, we would have seen him run away from the building and not run to the nearest vehicle and hide in front of it.

Ducking behind cover is a rational thing to do when a building is about to explode, though.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

The thing is, I see nothing extraordinary in Werner's reaction, nothing that wouldn't make sense without Andrew being Lash. Even the missing henchmen can easily explained by Andrew knowing how to defend himself (and he certainly learned a thing or two from his ex-wife in that regard).
The only suspicious part is Andrew coming back one way or another in episode 6. But there thousands of ways to handle this without him being Lash is even considered an option.

 

[BoredGuy]

I'm fairly certain he battled his way out of there, one way or the other, but idk if he is Lash
Strucker's reaction could've been either to the monster who just tore through his guys, or just shock that Andrew's a badass and dropped several of his men

I agree that Lash's human shadow certainly did not look like Andrew
but it could go either way at this point

..
and the reason he didn't kill Daisy could be a simple "it's not his mission" or "my boss wants her alive", there are any number of reasons Lash, whether he's Andrew or not, may have left her alive

 

[Chemistro]

If it was clear cut already this would be a boring and predictable show, it's the fact that we don't know that makes it so intriguing a twist.

The point is that it seems very improbable based on the available evidence that he might be Lash. There seems to be no fitting motivation, among other reasons.

There is an option that Lash in human version has not been introduced yet. Judging from the shadows - he seems to be relatively (?) small. Andrew seems to be a bigger guy (not height but build). On the other hand - Daisy is May's friend and Andrew's patient: it might be a motive why not kill her which would make Lash actions more understandable.

Good point about the built.
As for your other point, Lash did attack Daisy in 3.01, after she prevented him from killing Lincoln. The reason he spare her life in 3.04 might be that she already passed the test, by managing to survive his attack in the hospital.

The thing is, I see nothing extraordinary in Werner's reaction, nothing that wouldn't make sense without Andrew being Lash. Even the missing henchmen can easily explained by Andrew knowing how to defend himself (and he certainly learned a thing or two from his ex-wife in that regard).
The only suspicious part is Andrew coming back one way or another in episode 6. But there thousands of ways to handle this without him being Lash is even considered an option.

Indeed.
One alternative that is much more probable than Andrew being Lash is that Andrew is an inhuman other than Lash.

That would explain why he left May (after the transformation, he needed time to adjust), how he killed the HYDRA goons (if he did; he may have done it with his powers), and the pieces of evidence <i>against</i> the hypothesis that Andrew is Lash (i.e., apparently no fitting motivation, the fact that he ignored Daisy at first, then attacked her in 3.01, the fact that Lash has access to the names of inhumans that SHIELD does not know, etc.) do not count as evidence against the hypothesis that he is an inhuman other than Lash.

That's not to say that the hypothesis that he's an inhuman other than Lash is probable; but it's much more probable than the hypothesis that he is Lash in my assessment, and for the reasons I've been giving.

 

[BoredGuy]

This "no fitting motivation" idea you have is just jumping to conclusions and/or having no imagination
talented writers could figure out a proper motivation to make Andrew do those things, and it not having been spelled out already for us is what we call a "mystery"

I do agree about the other points though
I don't think he's Lash, but there's definitely something up with him

but if he IS Lash, I also wouldn't be all that surprised

goddam 'Lash' is a dumb name...gets worse every time I read it.... Laaaaash. It even looks ugly.

 

[Destructus86]

I'm gonna say it's Andrew as well...but who knows. I can't predict this show. haha...
And I don't even have a guess why Jemma wants to go back to the planet (moon?) Could be that her body was altered but I think it's something bigger.

 

[Chemistro]

This "no fitting motivation" idea you have is just jumping to conclusions and/or having no imagination
talented writers could figure out a proper motivation to make Andrew do those things, and it not having been spelled out already for us is what we call a "mystery"

It is neither.

Rather, I've been considering potential motivations for Lash, considering those suggested by other posters in the thread, as well as others I could come up with. None of them seem to fit Andrew's character, at least based on what we can tell of it based on on-screen behavior. That counts as evidence against the hypothesis that he is Lash.
Sure, there is always the option of saying that things like "Andrew was pretending all the time", and then come up with a complicated story that would fit some motivation. But what I'm saying is that what we've seen of him on screen (leaving aside the other points that you agree with) count against that - they make that sort of twist more improbable, even if they don't rule it out entirely. There are other pieces of evidence against the hypothesis that he is Lash, though.

but if he IS Lash, I also wouldn't be all that surprised

I would be very surprised.
Then again, I admit I was very surprised that Ward was HYDRA as well. But still, events like Lash's behavior towards Daisy would make the surprise pretty big; how would you explain that one? (or the fact that he has access to the names of inhumans that SHIELD does not know about, etc.)

 

[BoredGuy]

But still, events like Lash's behavior towards Daisy would make the surprise pretty big; how would you explain that one? (or the fact that he has access to the names of inhumans that SHIELD does not know about, etc.)

she's not his target; she got in the way in episode 1 so his Lash side try to kill her.... ?
and he could have access to those names because someone or some group with more advanced knowledge of the Inhumans is giving it to him..?

again, I think you're right that he's not, but I could easily see the show doing something like that so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they said essentially "he's been an undercover inhuman operative, that's why he's taken such an active hand in observing and clearing them for SHIELD duty" or some such. It may not fit what we've seen on-screen, but that means f***-all in the hands of talented writers (not you, me, or any internet commenters but professionals)

 

[Chemistro]

she's not his target; she got in the way in episode 1 so his Lash side try to kill her.... ?

1. He ignored her before she stepped in. Andrew would have known about Daisy's power, and would not have been oblivious to her presence.
2. In 3.04, she also got in his way. But he did not attempt to kill her again.

and he could have access to those names because someone or some group with more advanced knowledge of the Inhumans is giving it to him..?

Sure, you can always add some unknown factor helping him.
But for that matter, one could say that (for example) maybe Banks is Lash, and he also has something like Alisha's power (so, he can be in at least two different places at once, sometimes transformed, sometimes not transformed), and also, only the source (not the copy) gives Frye headaches, a rush, etc. (either that, or he has the power to make himself invisible to Frye's power, if one can call that a power).
Similarly, one might say it might be Rosalind. Or even, say, Hunter (splitting again).

What I'm trying to get at is that there are infinitely many scenarios that are logically compatible with on-screen events. That does not prevent one from making probabilistic assessments based on what one has seen, even if - unlike real-life probabilistic assessments - one sometimes may and/or should include extra-world factors (such as what the writers might be trying to do) when making an assessment.

again, I think you're right that he's not, but I could easily see the show doing something like that so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they said essentially "he's been an undercover inhuman operative, that's why he's taken such an active hand in observing and clearing them for SHIELD duty" or some such. It may not fit what we've seen on-screen, but that means f***-all in the hands of talented writers (not you, me, or any internet commenters but professionals)

He's not clearing them for SHIELD duty. He's saying that they're not clear for duty, other than Daisy. And he's been doing that under Coulson's orders. Had Coulson not called him, he would not have been there. In fact, he wasn't there in the previous season. Coulson only called him because he didn't know how to deal with [then] Skye.

But with regard to your other comment, I agree they might come up with anything. I don't think that that rules out making assessments about the probability of an event. If it does, then all or nearly all speculation fall prey to the same objection.

 

[voyzovrezon]

When I first saw Lash, I assumed it was Raina. Afterall, the thing looks like a huge plant from a distance, at least it did to me at first. Maybe she didn't die, but transformed further into this thing?

The speculation that it could be Andrew is interesting, but I have my doubts.

It's quite possible that it's one of those inhumans picked up Rosaline's task force and experimented on. It's gone rogue. ?

I assumed Werner's reaction was that it was his first kill, but now I'm convinced he saw something else. Perhaps Andrew, if not being Lash, has other secrets of his own.

 

[SwiftFox]

I'm not convinced Lash is Andrew. I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew were Inhuman but I don't think the two are one in the same.

I'm still banking that Lash is one of Rosalind's people and either she doesn't know it or she's hiding it.

 

[DN91]

Did that convenience store have any of the Inhuman Fish Oil on the shelves?

 

[just one thing]

It is neither.

Rather, I've been considering potential motivations for Lash, considering those suggested by other posters in the thread, as well as others I could come up with. None of them seem to fit Andrew's character, at least based on what we can tell of it based on on-screen behavior. That counts as evidence against the hypothesis that he is Lash.
Sure, there is always the option of saying that things like "Andrew was pretending all the time", and then come up with a complicated story that would fit some motivation. But what I'm saying is that what we've seen of him on screen (leaving aside the other points that you agree with) count against that - they make that sort of twist more improbable, even if they don't rule it out entirely. There are other pieces of evidence against the hypothesis that he is Lash, though.


I would be very surprised.
Then again, I admit I was very surprised that Ward was HYDRA as well. But still, events like Lash's behavior towards Daisy would make the surprise pretty big; how would you explain that one? (or the fact that he has access to the names of inhumans that SHIELD does not know about, etc.)

maybe ward is lash

 

[David_99]

Did that convenience store have any of the Inhuman Fish Oil on the shelves?

I was thinking Andrew took some fish pills while on vacation with May, got powers and suddenly disappeared on her. Not Lash but some other hero. He'll likely, ironically, be part of Daisy's team as he's been so adverse to it before. There's no way they introduce Strucker Junior, set up the whole plan with him in Andrew's class, all in one episode, then have him kill him in a convenience store the next show.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Did that convenience store have any of the Inhuman Fish Oil on the shelves?

Didn't they say they pulled it all off the shelves? The problem is it's in the water supply so fish everywhere could be the source.

 

[Chemistro]

I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew were Inhuman but I don't think the two are one in the same.

I agree.

I'm still banking that Lash is one of Rosalind's people and either she doesn't know it or she's hiding it.

That's plausible, given that Lash knew where to wait for them. I tend to think she does not know. She seemed genuinely surprised that Coulson wasn't behind the killings of the inhumans with a hole in their chests.

I was thinking Andrew took some fish pills while on vacation with May, got powers and suddenly disappeared on her. Not Lash but some other hero. He'll likely, ironically, be part of Daisy's team as he's been so adverse to it before. There's no way they introduce Strucker Junior, set up the whole plan with him in Andrew's class, all in one episode, then have him kill him in a convenience store the next show.

I'm not sure he'd take orders from Daisy. But other than that, I think this is a plausible hypothesis.

 

[DN91]

The fish pill theory seems very likely. And if that's the case, I wonder what powers Andrew gained that would cause Kid Strucker to run in fear and attempt to burn down the store in desperation.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I was thinking Andrew took some fish pills while on vacation with May, got powers and suddenly disappeared on her. Not Lash but some other hero. He'll likely, ironically, be part of Daisy's team as he's been so adverse to it before. There's no way they introduce Strucker Junior, set up the whole plan with him in Andrew's class, all in one episode, then have him kill him in a convenience store the next show.

I don't see Andrew following orders from Daisy if he is indeed an Inhuman and not Lash. I had thought that if he was going to be a part of Daisy's team, it would be more like Nick Fury with the Avengers but that's Coulson's role.