Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD - Episode 2.20 - "Scars"

[CoherentChaos]

Yes, I'm sure it counts as a logical fallacy (straw man or false comparison).

Claiming his scars are comparable to Jiaying's was cringe-worthy.

She's going full Magneto, which is disappointed (was hoping she'd be more civil and reasonable), but I'm not going to shed a tear for Gonzalez. He seemed crooked from the very beginning.

 

[kevin626]

I may be crazy but I'm more sympathetic to Jiayings position then SHIELD's at this point. Look at it from her point of view:

- SHIELD as far as I know is still publicly considered fugitives of the law even if they aren't being actively pursued anymore.
- SHIELD was infiltrated at all levels by Hyrda and nearly killed thousands of people about a year ago(?)
- Hydra, the same organization that went after her and other gifted people tearing apart her body and her family.
- SHIELD shows up at there doorstep with fighter jets and armed agents.
- Her only choice to avoid "problems" is to submit her people to "indexing" and trust SHIELD that nothing bad will come from it.

She was backed into a corner with not many options. I'm not saying she did the right thing but it will get her people[Skye?] on her side in a fight with SHIELD.

 

[Humbugged]

I may be crazy but I'm more sympathetic to Jiayings position then SHIELD's at this point. Look at it from her point of view:

- SHIELD as far as I know is still publicly considered fugitives of the law even if they aren't being actively pursued anymore.
- SHIELD was infiltrated at all levels by Hyrda and nearly killed thousands of people about a year ago(?)
- Hydra, the same organization that went after her and other gifted people tearing apart her body and her family.
- SHIELD shows up at there doorstep with fighter jets and armed agents.
- Her only choice to avoid "problems" is to submit her people to "indexing" and trust SHIELD that nothing bad will come from it.

She was backed into a corner with not many options. I'm not saying she did the right thing but it will get her people[Skye?] on her side in a fight with SHIELD.

agree with all of that but would add in

- SHIELD having an anti Inhuman weapon
- SHIELD agents basically kidnapped her infant daughter
- The tried to have that daughter murdered even though she was one of their agents
- SHIELD sent the guy who gave the kill order to demand they submit to him


Oh and Phil and May ****

Phil - are you sure he (and her because they are the same) is a person ?

Skye - Gonzalez tried to have me killed May - Yeah buts he is a good guy (and likes kittens?)

 

[Uskok]

I was surprised to see that Phil is still the leader of shield I thought with Fury back he'd be back in charge.

Fury just borrowed the Helicarrier from Coulson. Coulson is the boss, not Fury.

I guess Fury is kind of the leader in the movies since Phil is still dead in that realm.

There are no two realms here, it's all the same realm. Fury's "S.H.I.E.L.D." in Age of Ultron was just a temporarily assembled team of former agents.


BTW, now that Gonzales is dead, I think Mack could rejoin S.H.I.E.L.D.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

How the heck was Agent 33 able to sneak about a Quinjet disguised as Agent May while the real May was on another in the same loading dock?

I'm also wondering if anyone else thought Skye's mom turning into a ruthless killer within seconds was true to her character or an out of the dark move by the writers to create tension entering the finale? To me, it just seemed to come out of nowhere with very little reason based on what had happened so far in the episode. For her to declare war on a fake assassination attempt seems like a very desperate move and she comes off as a total nutjob and two-faced liar.

 

[Humbugged]

How the heck was Agent 33 able to sneak about a Quinjet disguised as Agent May while the real May was on another in the same loading dock?

I'm also wondering if anyone else thought Skye's mom turning into a ruthless killer within seconds was true to her character or an out of the dark move by the writers to create tension entering the finale? To me, it just seemed to come out of nowhere with very little reason based on what had happened so far in the episode. For her to declare war on a fake assassination attempt seems like a very desperate move and she comes off as a total nutjob and two-faced liar.

They have just discovered that SHIELD has an anti-Inhuman weapon ,have tracked them to Afterlife and have now turned up with the be Indexed or else threat.

 

[Chemistro]

How the heck was Agent 33 able to sneak about a Quinjet disguised as Agent May while the real May was on another in the same loading dock?

She didn't. She told Bobbi that Coulson had ordered them to get there before the others and do some reconnaissance. Their quinjet left the base before the three others did.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

They have just discovered that SHIELD has an anti-Inhuman weapon ,have tracked them to Afterlife and have now turned up with the be Indexed or else threat.

But it seemed like such a quick step to go from discovering SHIELD has a weapon they have no idea what to do with to starting a war just because SHIELD wanted to index them. I get that she's seen what happens when a government-type organization does listings of those different from the rest but starting a full-blown war when SHIELD had yet to do anything harmful to them felt a bit rushed and like an overreaction on her part. I think that sort of calls into question her leadership abilities.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

She didn't. She told Bobbi that Coulson had ordered them to get there before the others and do some reconnaissance. Their quinjet left the base before the three others did.

Must have missed that part.

 

[Humbugged]

But it seemed like such a quick step to go from discovering SHIELD has a weapon they have no idea what to do with to starting a war just because SHIELD wanted to index them. I get that she's seen what happens when a government-type organization does listings of those different from the rest but starting a full-blown war when SHIELD had yet to do anything harmful to them felt a bit rushed and like an overreaction on her part. I think that sort of calls into question her leadership abilities.

Yeah they should just have waited until the putting them in camps and the cutting and slicing start to do anything about it .That would work.

SHIELD's SOP is basically the same as HYDRAs .Tag them(and surveille them) ,use them or neutralize them .
And once again they sent the guy who just tried to have her daughter murdered to 'negotiate'

 

[<(o_o)>]

How the heck was Agent 33 able to sneak about a Quinjet disguised as Agent May while the real May was on another in the same loading dock?

I'm also wondering if anyone else thought Skye's mom turning into a ruthless killer within seconds was true to her character or an out of the dark move by the writers to create tension entering the finale? To me, it just seemed to come out of nowhere with very little reason based on what had happened so far in the episode. For her to declare war on a fake assassination attempt seems like a very desperate move and she comes off as a total nutjob and two-faced liar.

Skye's mom did what she thought she had to do to protect her people however devious it might have been. Never really bought her goody goody act there just always seemed to be something darker inside of her that gave the impression not to trust her. If she were to get her hands on that black rock thing with all those places on it for the diviners would she go against the Inhuman wishes & start turning people into Inhumans on a larger scale? Maybe the Royal Family gave her to much control over what goes on & they need to step in & scold her or something. Will she be the ongoing bad guy of season 3 & we will see more of her darker tendencies or will her story end with the finale & then another bad guy will step up to take her place?

 

[Chemistro]

I'm also wondering if anyone else thought Skye's mom turning into a ruthless killer within seconds was true to her character or an out of the dark move by the writers to create tension entering the finale? To me, it just seemed to come out of nowhere with very little reason based on what had happened so far in the episode. For her to declare war on a fake assassination attempt seems like a very desperate move and she comes off as a total nutjob and two-faced liar.

Based on what happened, I reckon it went down as follows:

She was convinced earlier by Cal. When she told him about the Index, he said they would brand her and all of the others, that she had power to stop them. That's when she began seriously considering going to war, shooting planes out of the sky, etc. But she said that Skye wouldn't want that, and besides, even her people wouldn't follow her blindly into a war, to which he replied that he would.
At that point, she agreed with him and decided to go to war with SHIELD. The lies were both to get her people to follow her - making them believe SHIELD attack first -, and get Skye to believe that SHIELD started it. Cal is in on it. He already took his formula, or is about to do so.

That said, based on previous behavior, her actions were surprising, though less so than Ward's betrayal in Season 1.
In fact, we didn't get to see much of her in previous episodes, and also, there were earlier hints of what she was capable of come from the fact that when she and Cal were together looking for Skye, and even she acknowledged she had to stop because of what she had turned into.
For example, it's been said that an entire village was killed by monsters while protecting Skye. But - according to Raina, in season 1 - the stories said that the monsters were the parents. It's still unclear who did the killings, or why, but Cal/Hyde is a very good candidate, and Jiaying seems to have been with him. Also, earlier in the episode, there are hints that Cal and Jiaying were together at least for a while when he was already Mr. Hyde.

 

[Marvolo]

Well, Jiaying just went on my **** list. Rather than being a rational person and acting diplomatically she decided to behave like a common murderer and behave like those people that she despises. Her character lost all credibility in that scene. The only thing she has accomplished is putting Inhumans on SHIELDS kill list. Whereas before her stupid decision SHIELD was at least having a conversation with them which meant time to figure out a sensible plan and solution.

Oh well, what's done is done, but I want Jiaying to answer for her stupidity. Hopefully the rest of the people at After Life find out how she put them all in even more danger and kick her ass to the curb.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Well, Jiaying just went on my **** list. Rather than being a rational person and acting diplomatically she decided to behave like a common murderer and behave like those people that she despises. Her character lost all credibility in that scene. The only thing she has accomplished is putting Inhumans on SHIELDS kill list. Whereas before her stupid decision SHIELD was at least having a conversation with them which meant time to figure out a sensible plan and solution.

Oh well, what's done is done, but I want Jiaying to answer for her stupidity. Hopefully the rest of the people at After Life find out how she put them all in even more danger and kick her ass to the curb.

I want this as well. I think a big reason for her turning was to get SHIELD cast in a poor light to make Skye side with her and the Inhumans. Even though it looks like Skye does based on the season finale preview, I think she'll eventually find out her mother and father's ulterior motives and go back to Coulson since he's been the most truthful and nurturing influence in her life.

 

[Chemistro]

It seems to me it's people behaving badly all around. For example (there is more, so just for example):

1. Gonzales.
Now we have further confirmation that he gave the order to kill Skye - i.e., it wasn't Calderon acting behind his back. That was murderous.
He makes things worse now: He wanted to attack without any further information, because two people with powers boarded his ship. His concerns are understandable. But those people didn't attack SHIELD, didn't kill anyone, and their powers and motives are largely unknown. For example, someone points out Gordon could just teleport there and leave a bomb. But the fact is that he doesn't. And Gonzales wants to launch a strike and start a war against an entire community of people with powers, when the enemy's numbers and the extent of their powers are almost entirely unknown - other than the fact that each of them seems to have a lot of power.
Starting a war like that blindly is both wrong and strategically unsound, endangering the very people he wants to protect. As Jiaying puts it, he seems to act out of fear. And he is murderous when he does it.

2. Jiaying.

If evacuation was not an option (but why not? She was planning just that until Skye convinced her to talk), Jiaying should have let the other inhumans in Afterlife (and others, perhaps, if they were at risk) make a choice whether to submit to the Index or fight. If there was no time, she should have told Gonzales that she wouldn't betray her people, so that they would not be put on the Index without previous consent, and that if SHIELD attacked, they would fight back. Then, she should have chosen what to do depending on his response.

But in any case, it was a terrible idea to deceive her own people to get them into a war without giving them a choice, and also even worse to start a war with the organization that has the Kree weapon designed to exterminate them and is not yet using it. Granted, SHIELD was already a threat with the Index and all, but she should have reckoned the threat was far greater in case of war, given the Kree weapon (she doesn't know that SHIELD doesn't know what the thing is).
I don't know if she acts out of fear or revenge or both, but she's on the wrong too.

The short and extra simplified version is: Bad guy who believes herself to be a good guy murders another bad guy who believes himself to be a good guy, and starts the war he failed to start.

Much lesser wrongdoings:

3. May.

She says Gonzales is a good guy, right after Skye points out that he tried to kill her. Not to mention she knows what Gonzales wanted to do - i.e., attack -, and still considers him a good guy.

4. Coulson.

Asks whether they're people. I mean, seriously?

 

[Pokkle]

It seems to me it's people behaving badly all around. For example (there is more, so just for example):

1. Gonzales.
Now we have further confirmation that he gave the order to kill Skye - i.e., it wasn't Calderon acting behind his back.

We don't know that.
Just Skye accusing him for the actions of his allies.

 

[Human Torch]

With my focus on my first viewing of AOU tonight,this was a cool place to pick up with...

Not sure what was up with Cal's plan to "hand himself over". Seems like he has something in mind. I can only guess it's as simple as the one big Hyde-Out that we've been looking forward to that's likely next week.

Not sure what to make of Jiaying sudden aggression. I guess it's a lucky thing Coulson didn't go after all! I wasn't the biggest fan of Gonzales, but EJO will be missed.

Happy to see Raina's still a bit devious.I really want to see something cool done with her before the end. (I'm guessing she'll be killed,as Ruth is cast in another show. )

I'm glad to see 33 with Ward again. Reunited and it feels so good! I'm rooting for that kooky pair to find happiness.t:

So,Mack's out. Just done. Where the heck does he go from here? (unless I guess he's just off the show).

Good to see a cameo from Koenig again. Where the heck has he/they been lately?

Bobbi's in trouble! Seems like she's more at home with Coulson now.

So Skye's a child of both worlds now. It'll be interesting to see how they move on after this season's "Inhumans" storyline.

 

[Humbugged]

With my focus on my first viewing of AOU tonight,this was a cool place to pick up with...

Not sure what was up with Cal's plan to "hand himself over". Seems like he has something in mind. I can only guess it's as simple as the one big Hyde-Out that we've been looking forward to that's likely next week.

Not sure what to make of Jiaying sudden aggression. I guess it's a lucky thing Coulson didn't go after all! I wasn't the biggest fan of Gonzales, but EJO will be missed.

Happy to see Raina's still a bit devious.I really want to see something cool done with her before the end. (I'm guessing she'll be killed,as Ruth is cast in another show. )

I'm glad to see 33 with Ward again. Reunited and it feels so good! I'm rooting for that kooky pair to find happiness.t:

So,Mack's out. Just done. Where the heck does he go from here? (unless I guess he's just off the show).

Good to see a cameo from Koenig again. Where the heck has he/they been lately?

Bobbi's in trouble! Seems like she's more at home with Coulson now.

So Skye's a child of both worlds now. It'll be interesting to see how they move on after this season's "Inhumans" storyline.

Off on the umpteen other shows that Patton is on like Justified,Battle Creek and The Goldbergs I imagine

 

[Chemistro]

We don't know that.
Just Skye accusing him for the actions of his allies.

We have more than that:

1. Calderon and his team went for the kill. They didn't use icers, or tell her to surrender. They just tried to kill her.
2. It made no sense to try to capture her, since:
a. They already had her in the Retreat. All they needed to do - at most - was to neutralize the panel and she wouldn't have been able to escape.
b. They had no place to hold her, given her power - except perhaps by keeping her under permanent sedation, unconscious. But there was no indication that that was the plan, and in any case, in practice it would be the same as killing her.
3. After she defended herself, he questioned Bobbi because she was still defending "that thing", after Bobbi pointed out Calderon had shot first.
4. In this episode, Skye states that Gonzales sent people to kill her. If Skye was mistaken, or at least if May didn't know whether Skye was right but she knew that neither did Skye, she almost certainly would have said "that's not true", or "we don't know that; you're just accusing him for the actions of some of his allies", or something like that (depending on the case), given that May was actually trying to defend him. But she didn't. She assented with her head, and said he was a much better man than Skye believed.

 

[Chemistro]

Something else I forgot. When Skye asks May what happened to Coulson, she replies they wanted someone "more objective". She also says she's not negotiating instead of - or in addition to - Gonzales, because they needed someone "more objective".
However, that's a terrible choice, because Gonzales is not remotely objective. Granted, Coulson is - or was - biased towards Skye. But Gonzales is seriously biased against her, and furthermore, against all people with powers. They're not picking someone more objective. They're picking someone at least equally biased - but apparently much more -, but in the other direction. Bad, bad choice.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Something else I forgot. When Skye asks May what happened to Coulson, she replies they wanted someone "more objective". She also says she's not negotiating instead of - or in addition to - Gonzales, because they needed someone "more objective".
However, that's a terrible choice, because Gonzales is not remotely objective. Granted, Coulson is - or was - biased towards Skye. But Gonzales is seriously biased against her, and furthermore, against all people with powers. They're not picking someone more objective. They're picking someone at least equally biased - but apparently much more -, but in the other direction. Bad, bad choice.

I've been noticing that May's decisions have been decidedly more anti-Coulson since Gonzalez took over. Her and Coulson are definitely on a very tenuous footing in the relationship and I just don't seeing her going back so soon to his side with what happened last night unless he, Skye, or another trusted SHIELD member can somehow talk some sense into her. Just like the Avengers in AoU, the team is fractured to the point that you don't know how they'll ever be able to function as a unit again.

 

[Marvolo]

Maybe it's just me, but does SHIELD's agents seem extremely racist all of a sudden? I mean, I understand worrying about what some of these Inhumans are capable of, but some of the stuff being said by SHIELD wouldn't have been out of place in the segregated South. It doesn't matter if these people have powers. They are still people. They aren't animals.

Idk whether the writers are just getting carried away and laying it on thick or if they're purposefully trying to make SHIELD seem more and more like a bunch of racist xenophobes, but it's working. I'm quickly being turned off by all them except Skye and Hunter and Coulson. The rest keep saying things that makes my skin crawl or want to punch the wall.

 

[Charlatan]

But it seemed like such a quick step to go from discovering SHIELD has a weapon they have no idea what to do with to starting a war just because SHIELD wanted to index them. I get that she's seen what happens when a government-type organization does listings of those different from the rest but starting a full-blown war when SHIELD had yet to do anything harmful to them felt a bit rushed and like an overreaction on her part. I think that sort of calls into question her leadership abilities.

She doesn't know that they don't know how to use the weapon. For all she knows they could drop it on them in a few moments.
Also we are about to see Mr Hyde next week. All those empty vials of serum. Cal is about to wreak havoc.

 

[regnak]

She doesn't know that they don't know how to use the weapon. For all she knows they could drop it on them in a few moments.

That would have been a good reason to flee. If Shield did know how to use the weapon her actions would have made that much more likely.

 

[Charlatan]

I did tbh


lol thinking Ward changed

yeah they just used SHIELD to get her deprogrammed. She's still loyal to Ward.