Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD - S02E16 - "AfterLife"

[Mike5575]

I know it sounds crazy and I DO hope I'm wildly wrong, but I can't help but remember his "No, Fitz, we're the ones that need protection from her" from episode 12, "Who You Really Are". Granted, he wasn't the only one feeling that way there, but none of the others, not even Bobbi, have been so vocally anti-Coulson and pro-nuSHIELD as Mack, hence my worry.

Mac was scared, as was everyone else. He wasn't wrong btw. Skye really is dangerous since she can't control her powers. Notice the look on Mac's face though as he realizes Skye heard what he just said. He immediately regretted what he said.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Mac was scared, as was everyone else. He wasn't wrong btw. Skye really is dangerous since she can't control her powers. Notice the look on Mac's face though as he realizes Skye heard what he just said. He immediately regretted what he said.

It'll be very interesting to see what Bobbi's sentiment is, now that she's seen just how much power Skye has. That may change her attitude towards her former teammate. Although, in next weeks SNEAK PEEK she still looks sheepish around FitzSimmons. You can tell she's conflicted but it's a little late for regrets. And I don't think her personality is willing to let her admit to making any kind of mistake.

I can see her going to Gonzales for answers and being told that it was necessary because someone with that much power is a threat to the world. And that he felt it best if she didn't know about it. Basically, he'll pay her some lip service to placate her. In the PEEK, he's acting like butter couldn't melt in his mouth.

 

[Chemistro]

If it was only calderon, the shield agent that made contact with sky would not have had a loaded weapon in his hand. Bobbi made it clear that they were going after another SHIELD agent "Icers only".

That's not clear to me.

The tactical team was hand-picked by Calderon - i.e., those were his guys. It may well be that they would take orders from him without the backing Gonzales and/or Weaver, either because they believe he has their support, or because they're just loyal to him and agree that the "enhanced" need to be put down.

On the other hand, it's hard to see why Gonzales or Weaver would want to send anyone if they wanted to capture Skye alive, given that Skye was in the Retreat, and after capturing the Playground, they already had Skye in their custody. They didn't know that she could get out, but in any case, if they knew about the panel, they could just send a team to deactivate it. Engaging her was not necessary.

 

[WhiteWalker]

That's not clear to me.

The tactical team was hand-picked by Calderon - i.e., those were his guys. It may well be that they would take orders from him without the backing Gonzales and/or Weaver, either because they believe he has their support, or because they're just loyal to him and agree that the "enhanced" need to be put down.

On the other hand, it's hard to see why Gonzales or Weaver would want to send anyone if they wanted to capture Skye alive, given that Skye was in the Retreat, and after capturing the Playground, they already had Skye in their custody. They didn't know that she could get out, but in any case, if they knew about the panel, they could just send a team to deactivate it. Engaging her was not necessary.

If that is true then they don't have much of an organization. And that will be their undoing. They can't have people going rogue every time they feel like it. If they have no discipline they will fail, simple as that. That's why I think Gonzales & Weaver were in on it. If you were an agent that was known to disobey orders, you'd have been washed out already. There would be no place in an organization like shield, for people that can't tow the line. When Bobbi said she wanted to go and help bring Skye in, you could tell that they weren't thrilled with the idea.

 

[Chemistro]

If that is true then they don't have much of an organization. And that will be their undoing. They can't have people going rogue every time they feel like it. If they have no discipline they will fail, simple as that. That's why I think Gonzales & Weaver were in on it. If you were an agent that was known to disobey orders, you'd have been washed out already. There would be no place in an organization like shield, for people that can't tow the line. When Bobbi said she wanted to go and help bring Skye in, you could tell that they weren't thrilled with the idea.

With regard to the problem for their organization if one of their leaders disobeys the group's decision, I tend to agree that that may well be their undoing - unless, perhaps, something else undoes them first.
However, there is also a serious problem if Gonzales and Weaver took part in the decision-making process, because in that case, they apparently broke their fundamental agreed-upon decision-making rules, by excluding Bobbi from a discussion and vote on whether to kill Skye.
So, it seems to me it's one of the following: either one of the members of their executive rebelled against the collective decision, or else at least three members of their executive decided to give in order in blatant violation of their Constitution (or basic laws or regulations or whatever one calls it). In other words, I'd say that as an organization, they're in trouble either way.

On the issue of whether Calderon would have been kicked out already, that's a possibility for sure. But there is a parallel argument here too: one might say that if 3 or 4 members of their executive were known to break the basic rules so clearly and exclude the other one, then their organization would have broken apart already. But it did not. Yet, it seems that either Calderon disobeyed, or 3 or 4 members of their group blatantly broke a basic rule.
That indicates that either it's the first time it happens, or (either Calderon or the others) are good at covering things up.
On the possibility that it's the first time, if it was Calderon's idea, the disobedience was probably because his "kill them all" policy on "enhanced" people, and that may well not have resulted in any conflict in the past. We don't know if they killed many people with powers since the incident in the Academy, but as long as there was no other issue in which Calderon would be willing to disobey orders (or as long as he was good at covering it up if he ever did), that would explain why he's still there.

As for the way they seemed to react when Bobbi said she wanted to go, I agree that the way they reacted supports the hypothesis that at least Gonzales and Weaver were in on it, and I think that so does the fact that if they wanted to capture Skye alive, apparently they already had her, and they didn't need to engage her.
So, I reckon Gonzales and Weaver probably took part in the decision.
There are alternatives, though (e.g., the way they reacted might be explained because they deemed Skye a threat and decided to send a tactical team, so they thought Bobbi's "friendly face" approach was a bad idea that might hamper the mission. The decision to send a team might be explained if they thought someone else also had access to the Retreat), which seem improbable but not absurdly so, so I think the evidence goes in the direction that it wasn't just Calderon, but it's not conclusive at this point.

 

[Demileto]

With regard to the problem for their organization if one of their leaders disobeys the group's decision, I tend to agree that that may well be their undoing - unless, perhaps, something else undoes them first.
However, there is also a serious problem if Gonzales and Weaver took part in the decision-making process, because in that case, they apparently broke their fundamental agreed-upon decision-making rules, by excluding Bobbi from a discussion and vote on whether to kill Skye.
So, it seems to me it's one of the following: either one of the members of their executive rebelled against the collective decision, or else at least three members of their executive decided to give in order in blatant violation of their Constitution (or basic laws or regulations or whatever one calls it). In other words, I'd say that as an organization, they're in trouble either way.

Eh, technically speaking the democracy clause of NuSHIELD is satisfied as 3 out of 5 agreeing on killing Skye constitutes a majority, Bobbi has nothing to complain about!

 

[Chemistro]

Eh, technically speaking the democracy clause of NuSHIELD is satisfied as 3 out of 5 agreeing on killing Skye constitutes a majority, Bobbi has nothing to complain about!

If the rule were only majority, that would be the case. But there is also a transparency clause (the "no secrets" stuff), and it seems it involves being able to discuss the matters, vote and know the outcome of the vote (at least, when they're all available. When some are working undercover, incapacitated, etc., chances are the others can make decisions without either 3 out of 5 or telling the others, but that is not the situation at hand).

 

[WhiteWalker]

If the rule were only majority, that would be the case. But there is also a transparency clause (the "no secrets" stuff), and it seems it involves being able to discuss the matters, vote and know the outcome of the vote (at least, when they're all available. When some are working undercover, incapacitated, etc., chances are the others can make decisions without either 3 out of 5 or telling the others, but that is not the situation at hand).

Constitution, Transparency clause, Democracy clause, what constitutes a quorum!!! These terms are moot in that they have never been addressed in the series, and that would make them conjectural. If I were to suggest that they may not have had a chance to draw up a constitution yet, that too would be conjecture. I could surmise that they probably have some form of rules and regulations. And protocols to deal with certain situations without the need to involve the committee. However, it would be presumptuous for me to assume I know what they are.

 

[DN91]

New promo pic for the episode, which seems to suggest "Afterlife" is the name of the place Skye got taken to. -- https://***********/AgentsofSHIELD/status/584363043821375488

 

[Chemistro]

Constitution, Transparency clause, Democracy clause, what constitutes a quorum!!! These terms are moot in that they have never been addressed in the series, and that would make them conjectural. If I were to suggest that they may not have had a chance to draw up a constitution yet, that too would be conjecture. I could surmise that they probably have some form of rules and regulations. And protocols to deal with certain situations without the need to involve the committee. However, it would be presumptuous for me to assume I know what they are.

I'm not saying that the agreement is in writing. A constitution doesn't need to be a written one (and I doubt that they put the rules in writing). But in any case, as I said, what you call the rules is not the issue. Terminology aside, the issue is that there is an agreement, and there are some basic rules.
Granted, those rules may not be as precise as some long, detailed written rules, and we may not know all of the details that they do have, either, but we do know some of the basic rules. That is neither an assumption nor presumptuous; rather, it's an assessment based what we've seen.

For example, if one of them goes against the collective decision (e.g., Calderon decides to kill Skye even if the decision of the majority was to capture her, as we saw on screen), he or she is breaking those basic rules. We do know that, even if the rules were not explicitly stated. And also a basic rule would be broken if a decision is made by some of them behind the others' back, and furthermore, deceiving them about the decision that has been made (e.g., if the decision to kill Skye was made behind Bobbi's back, and the conversation in which Gonzales asks what they know about Skye, Calderon tells him that she's in the Retreat and asks to go with a tactical team, etc., was all a ruse to deceive Bobbie).
We don't know the precise scope of the "no secrets" and "democracy" rules, but at least we've seen enough to know that they cover at least cases of that sort.

But if you don't agree, I guess we can just disagree on that, and wait for the next episode to see who was behind that decision.

 

[HunBoy]

I would love to see an AoS spinoff called InHumans: Gordon's School For Miracles

 

[WhiteWalker]

I'm not saying that the agreement is in writing. A constitution doesn't need to be a written one (and I doubt that they put the rules in writing). But in any case, as I said, what you call the rules is not the issue. Terminology aside, the issue is that there is an agreement, and there are some basic rules.
Granted, those rules may not be as precise as some long, detailed written rules, and we may not know all of the details that they do have, either, but we do know some of the basic rules. That is neither an assumption nor presumptuous; rather, it's an assessment based what we've seen.

For example, if one of them goes against the collective decision (e.g., Calderon decides to kill Skye even if the decision of the majority was to capture her, as we saw on screen), he or she is breaking those basic rules. We do know that, even if the rules were not explicitly stated. And also a basic rule would be broken if a decision is made by some of them behind the others' back, and furthermore, deceiving them about the decision that has been made (e.g., if the decision to kill Skye was made behind Bobbi's back, and the conversation in which Gonzales asks what they know about Skye, Calderon tells him that she's in the Retreat and asks to go with a tactical team, etc., was all a ruse to deceive Bobbie).
We don't know the precise scope of the "no secrets" and "democracy" rules, but at least we've seen enough to know that they cover at least cases of that sort.

But if you don't agree, I guess we can just disagree on that, and wait for the next episode to see who was behind that decision.

I think we agree on a lot. Our thoughts about motives, agendas and who did what, are pretty much aligned. We could both be wrong and we'll find out soon enough. My point is that we have enough evidence to support our suppositions, based on facts as they've played out. We can make inferences about them having rules and protocols. And some of the protocols we actually know. For instance, the protocols that Coulson had to follow when Skye got changed by the mist. However, we know nothing about Real-SHIELD rules other than they want more transparency, what ever that means. So we shouldn't use a hypothetical to support our hypothesis.

 

[ralphuniverse]

G'day,

You lot are way over thinking this. This season has been about people becoming superhumans and how people have reacted to it. Its a journey but Coulson's SHIELD are basically becoming the Secret Warriors battling Hydra and now a SHIELD which is becoming:

I'm not saying that the agreement is in writing. A constitution doesn't need to be a written one (and I doubt that they put the rules in writing). But in any case, as I said, what you call the rules is not the issue. Terminology aside, the issue is that there is an agreement, and there are some basic rules.
Granted, those rules may not be as precise as some long, detailed written rules, and we may not know all of the details that they do have, either, but we do know some of the basic rules. That is neither an assumption nor presumptuous; rather, it's an assessment based what we've seen.

For example, if one of them goes against the collective decision (e.g., Calderon decides to kill Skye even if the decision of the majority was to capture her, as we saw on screen), he or she is breaking those basic rules. We do know that, even if the rules were not explicitly stated. And also a basic rule would be broken if a decision is made by some of them behind the others' back, and furthermore, deceiving them about the decision that has been made (e.g., if the decision to kill Skye was made behind Bobbi's back, and the conversation in which Gonzales asks what they know about Skye, Calderon tells him that she's in the Retreat and asks to go with a tactical team, etc., was all a ruse to deceive Bobbie).
We don't know the precise scope of the "no secrets" and "democracy" rules, but at least we've seen enough to know that they cover at least cases of that sort.

But if you don't agree, I guess we can just disagree on that, and wait for the next episode to see who was behind that decision.

 

[Mike5575]

It'll be very interesting to see what Bobbi's sentiment is, now that she's seen just how much power Skye has. That may change her attitude towards her former teammate. Although, in next weeks SNEAK PEEK she still looks sheepish around FitzSimmons. You can tell she's conflicted but it's a little late for regrets. And I don't think her personality is willing to let her admit to making any kind of mistake.

I can see her going to Gonzales for answers and being told that it was necessary because someone with that much power is a threat to the world. And that he felt it best if she didn't know about it. Basically, he'll pay her some lip service to placate her. In the PEEK, he's acting like butter couldn't melt in his mouth.

Everybody already knew Skye was dangerous, which is why extracting her from the safehouse never made sense. NuShield had control of The Playground, and as a result, control over the safehouse. Then there is Agent Calderon, who tried to put a bullet in Skye's head. Bobbi should stark asking herself if she's on the wrong side. I hate what Bobbi and Mac have done and I hope they are eaten up by guilt.

 

[Chemistro]

However, we know nothing about Real-SHIELD rules other than they want more transparency, what ever that means. So we shouldn't use a hypothetical to support our hypothesis.

I'm not sure what you mean by "use a hypothetical". We need to make probabilistic assessments based on some information, and base our conclusions on that. But I get you're saying we know nothing about the rules of "real" shield, so we disagree on that. We don't know much, but we know something. I provided two examples. I think not everything has to be on screen for the viewers to know it. There is plenty that is implicit, but needs to be understood in order to follow the story.

I guess how much is implicit is debatable, but the argument I made earlier can be modified, so that knowing the rules of the "real" shield is not required.
On that note, you said earlier:

If that is true then they don't have much of an organization. And that will be their undoing. They can't have people going rogue every time they feel like it. If they have no discipline they will fail, simple as that. That's why I think Gonzales & Weaver were in on it. If you were an agent that was known to disobey orders, you'd have been washed out already. There would be no place in an organization like shield, for people that can't tow the line. When Bobbi said she wanted to go and help bring Skye in, you could tell that they weren't thrilled with the idea.

The modified reply goes as follows:

Let's consider the alternative: let's say that Calderon wasn't alone. So, the whole discussion between Calderon, Gonzales, Weaver and Bobbi was staged as a means of deceiving Bobbi, making her believe that the plan was to capture Skye alive, not to kill her, while they had already decided to kill her [As I see it, that's a clear violation of their basic rules, but let's leave the matter of the rules aside for the sake of the argument].
So, if the "real" shield is like that - if that sort of behavior is common -, then they don't really have much of an organization, either. In fact, if Gonzales, Calderon and Weaver were known to behave like that towards Bobbi, that would have been their undoing already. Bobbi would not accept that sort of behavior.

So, I don't need the hypothesis (though I think it's true) that they have a [probably non-written] rule that entails that they must not do that (i.e., not stage that sort of show in order to deceive Bobbi or any one of them, go behind their backs, etc.), in order to assess that the organization would not work if it's like that.

Granted, it might be suggested that it was the first time they deceived her like that. But then again, it might also be suggested that it was the first time Calderon disobeyed orders if he did (or that he did it very few times but managed to hide it as accidents), since there may have been no disagreement between the majority and Calderon over what to do with people with powers in any previous cases, and Calderon's disobedience (if he disobeyed) was probably motivated by his "anti-powers" stance). Without further evidence, neither suggestion seems more probable.

That said, there is some further evidence. There are two pieces of evidence that do weigh in support of the hypothesis that Weaver and Gonzales were involved - namely, they way they seemed to react and the fact that if they wanted to capture Skye, apparently they already had her. But as I said, those two pieces of evidence aren't decisive. "Afterlife" will probably give enough evidence in one direction or the other, but it would be hasty to conclude at this point (i.e., on the basis of what we've seen so far) that Weaver and Gonzales had taken part in the decision to kill Skye.

 

[Chemistro]

Everybody already knew Skye was dangerous, which is why extracting her from the safehouse never made sense. NuShield had control of The Playground, and as a result, control over the safehouse. Then there is Agent Calderon, who tried to put a bullet in Skye's head. Bobbi should stark asking herself if she's on the wrong side. I hate what Bobbi and Mac have done and I hope they are eaten up by guilt.

Yes, that supports the conclusion that Gonzales and Weaver were in on it. Why would they remove her from the Retreat? She wasn't dangerous when she was alone, in a place that apparently could hold even the Hulk. Even if they knew about the panel that could be used to escape, all they needed to do is go there and neutralize the panel, rather than engage Skye.
So, if Weaver and Gonzales didn't want to kill her, they probably didn't think things through.
An alternative might be that someone else also had access to the retreat (so, they didn't had full control), and they wanted to put Skye in a place they considered safer. But that seems improbable.

 

[ralphuniverse]

G'day,

They won't be, especially Bobbi. Have a look at the expression on her face when Skye did her Quake thing at the end. Pure fear. Thats whats driving SHIELD*** . The fear that there are superhumans out there that can endanger the Earth.

ta

Ralph

Everybody already knew Skye was dangerous, which is why extracting her from the safehouse never made sense. NuShield had control of The Playground, and as a result, control over the safehouse. Then there is Agent Calderon, who tried to put a bullet in Skye's head. Bobbi should stark asking herself if she's on the wrong side. I hate what Bobbi and Mac have done and I hope they are eaten up by guilt.

 

[Lilbaz]

It's a bit silly. Why didn't Bobbi go in alone and talk to Skye. Skye didn't know that Bobbi had betrayed them and as far as Bobbi knew May hadn't contacted Skye and told her to get out of there.

Also what did Bobbi think they planned to do with Skye? A woman who causes earthquakes when she gets up set. Put her in prison?

They really need to tighten up the writing on this show. These are meant to be Shield, the top spies in the world and supposedly very intelligent. Yet week after week they make stupid decisions.

 

[melvintwj]

It's a bit silly. Why didn't Bobbi go in alone and talk to Skye. Skye didn't know that Bobbi had betrayed them and as far as Bobbi knew May hadn't contacted Skye and told her to get out of there.

Also what did Bobbi think they planned to do with Skye? A woman who causes earthquakes when she gets up set. Put her in prison?

They really need to tighten up the writing on this show. These are meant to be Shield, the top spies in the world and supposedly very intelligent. Yet week after week they make stupid decisions.

I suppose they'd keep icing her as long as she's quaking?

 

[WhiteWalker]

It's a bit silly. Why didn't Bobbi go in alone and talk to Skye. Skye didn't know that Bobbi had betrayed them and as far as Bobbi knew May hadn't contacted Skye and told her to get out of there.

Also what did Bobbi think they planned to do with Skye? A woman who causes earthquakes when she gets up set. Put her in prison?

They really need to tighten up the writing on this show. These are meant to be Shield, the top spies in the world and supposedly very intelligent. Yet week after week they make stupid decisions.

This genre of show depends on smart people making stupid decisions. Otherwise they would never find themselves in any of these situations. Hence, no story. Its like throwing in the obligatory love triangle. It's trite but they keep doing it. The tension between FitzSimmons is even formulaic. That's not going to change.

 

[Mike5575]

I suppose they'd keep icing her as long as she's quaking?

Or, they just keep her heavily sedated. Either way, it makes no sense why they bothered taking her from Retreat.

 

[Humbugged]

Or, they just keep her heavily sedated. Either way, it makes no sense why they bothered taking her from Retreat.

Unless Weaver and her SciTechs are prepared to do a Whitehall on the Gifted generally and on Skye in particular?

 

[WhiteWalker]

Or, they just keep her heavily sedated. Either way, it makes no sense why they bothered taking her from Retreat.

They didn't go there to remove her. They went there to kill her.

 

[WhiteWalker]

G'day,

You lot are way over thinking this. This season has been about people becoming superhumans and how people have reacted to it. Its a journey but Coulson's SHIELD are basically becoming the Secret Warriors battling Hydra and now a SHIELD which is becoming:

Right you are, and we know Skye/Daisy is going to play a big part in that. So let's just enjoy the ride.

 

[Uskok]

They didn't go there to remove her. They went there to kill her.

Yeah, right.Then why did Morse say: "I.C.E.R.s only."