Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion - Part 7

[Huddsy]

some times I feel some people discovered TV shows very recently. I know great genre shows with very rabid fans that took two or three seasons to get as interesting where AoS is now. Almost every sci fi show in the late 80ies or 90ies for an example (with the exception of Babylon 5 which was awesome from day 1) TNG, Stargate, X-Files, Buffy, Farscape, DS9, Smallville..
It's 101 storytelling, you need time to set up the world and the characters, before you get to tell your meta plot. AoS did this very fast and effective.

So much this.

DS9 is a great example. The last 3-4 seasons were friggin' amazing, and the best Trek stuff, IMO. But it took a long time to really get going.

Stargate was a good one, as I've used before too.


And it's really true that we as TV people have become a little bit spoiled in recent years with Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, Walking Dead (when it's good), True Blood, etc.

 

[Shikamaru]

Sherlock S1 was 3 episodes long and was far superior in an apples and oranges way.

Sherlock is technically not a TV show; it's a series of movies.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

In all honesty its stupid to compare this show with breaking bad... Its in a completely different genre and not remotely the same mood the mcu has set up

 

[Huddsy]

In all honesty its stupid to compare this show with breaking bad... Its in a completely different genre and not remotely the same mood the mcu has set up

It's not comparing, as more to say that a lot of successful shows started slow and took time to get it's footing.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Sherlock is technically not a TV show; it's a series of movies.

that's why the vegetables were mentioned.

 

[Shikamaru]

that's why the vegetables were mentioned.

 

[Dark Raven]

So do people think that Mike Peterson will be given an alias of Michael Collins now that he is forced to work for Centipede, and has become Deathlok?

I hope he doesn't have a budget costume but that his outfit actually looks like the comic character. It needs to be good enough that it could potentially show up as a cameo in a movie.

 

[Xeno]

Damn straight.

This "that was the plan all along" defense rings hollow because the simple fact of the matter is that AOS' failure to arc from the very beginning killed off a huge portion of the audience after the pilot episode. Yes, making this a show about superheroes and starting to salt it with more comic-book canon is a major step in the right direction towards the show everybody asked for from the beginning; but the audience has long since abandoned ship, hanging on by fingernails at the 2.0 mark.

It remains to be seen if this news is enough to bring back audiences who gave up on AOS a long time ago. I certainly hope so, but I'm not willing to bet money on that happening. Could be a little too little, a little too late.

Anyone who thinks "let's don't make the show interesting until the halfway point of the first season" is a smart marketing strategy should really take a remedial course in Sell This ***** 101.

The biggest problem this show has had is the utter failure to provide viewers with compelling reasons to get hooked into watching it. The way to get people excited and keep them watching is by having great characters and well-written stories with a continuing arc that draws the viewer along as it goes. AOS has lacked those elements and has suffered for it. The "all shows suck at first" defense that so many here are making ignores the very real problems of plotting and characterization that have turned off so many people.

At least the execs and the network president have recognized the problems and are trying to take steps to right the ship. It would have been better for the show had they realized the pitfalls of the procedural format before the season started. But better late than never. Maybe it can reclaim some of its lost audience if it finishes the season as strongly as Lee seems to believe it will.

because no one ever said that. Loeb mentioned he prefers episodic shows last year, but that was in context of animated shows and had nothing to do with live action television.

Jeph Loeb said this to the LA Times just before the show premiered:

Although Loeb too was heartened by the response, he acknowledged that the series will need to reach well beyond the core fan base to have a real shot at longevity. To that end, the show is built around self-contained stories that require no previous schooling in the Marvel universe, although some inside-joke references are included.

“We make a concerted effort to not make the show about mythology,” Loeb said. “Obviously we want you to watch every single episode, but you should be able to feel like if you sit down at Episode 4 you’ll know what’s going on.”

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/tv/marvels-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-ready-for-prime-time-action/#/1

To make the show one that people could just drop in at any point and watch without having seen prior episodes, it was purposely made episodic, with "self-contained stories," instead of arced. The first 10 or so episodes were deliberately created to work as standalone installments, with a freak-of-the-week format that had continuing threads shot through, but done in such a way that viewers didn't have to see all of the episodes in order to pick up on details. It's only in retrospect, now that the season is past the midpoint, that the producers are telling us that everything was connected in an arc, when from the start they have not wanted that to be a major factor.

Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon stated in another interview that the producers, ABC and Marvel all wanted a procedural/episodic format as opposed to a serialized one.

Maurissa Tancharoen: Also, the stories they can do with S.H.I.E.L.D. lends itself to more of a procedural model, which I think was appealing for the network and us.

HitFix: You've talked before about how ABC and Marvel and you all wanted to do a procedural format. One of the issues with “Dollhouse” was Fox wanted a procedural, and I didn't get the sense that any of you necessarily did. And certainly the best moments of that show were when you abandoned the procedural and went for the dystopia. What did you guys learn from that process that you can apply here?

Maurissa Tancharoen: “Dollhouse” was a unique show, in that a procedural model might not have worked for it. But with this, we will have a challenge of the week, a case of the week.

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wa...en-talk-coulson-joss-more#sET9jcDpdepBKhS0.99

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

I hope he doesn't have a budget costume but that his outfit actually looks like the comic character. It needs to be good enough that it could potentially show up as a cameo in a movie.

so far MS redesigned every single costume for every single of their movies. no hero wore the exact same outfit twice. If DL cameos in a future movie, Granov or Meinerding or whoever will create a movie appropriate costume for him.

 

[cherokeesam]

It's been interesting enough to keep you watching, hasn't it? The shows not great but it's far from awful.

That's a moot point....I watch *anything* CBM. Even Green Lantern, Elektra, FFROTSS, Ghost Rider 2, the old Blade TV series, Mutant X....I watch any of them, even the crappy ones.


In any event, getting past the whole "toldja so/ nuh-uh" back and forth, I'd like to move on to my favorite pastime: speculation. So....Lorelei. In the comics, she's famous almost entirely for being a seductress, and using love potions to beguile Thor. I doubt Hem's busy schedule will allow for a TV cameo, so I'm wondering what Lorelei's role is, and why Sif was sent after her.

Who sent Sif? *Has* to be Loki, still disguised as Odin. What does Loki want with her? Some kind of scheme up in Asgard, probably reserved for Thor 3.

And what about Lorelei's role on Midgard? Not really sure, but I'm betting that we're going to see Dr. Elliott Randolph again. Remember Randolph talking about that French girl he fell in love with back in the 16th century? Yeah, I'm thinking Lorelei.

 

[Shikamaru]

Jeph Loeb seriously needs to leave Marvel TV.

 

[The Question]

I think the "episodic/arc" dichotomy really has nothing to do with the show's faults. There are super episodic shows that hook an audience immediately and are the most amazing thing ever and there are super serialized shows that bore the crap out of people and are just generally not very good.

Saying "the show is too episodic, it should have been more serialized from the beginning" is a surface detail that we can latch onto, but I don't think it's an actual problem with the show.

Ultimately, the show's problem is that it feels a little flat to me. It's missing a certain grounded, humanizing element that makes it feel really real and immediate and engaging. It's hard to describe, it's kind of an ephemeral concept, and art only really achieves it though a bunch of different little details all working together, details of inflection and pacing and scenery and soundtrack and characterization, that would be too numerous to list fully. The fact is, in a lot of episodes, I'm always aware that I'm watching a show. They don't have a great or consistent grasp on that quality of style and tone that draws me in and makes me forget that none of it is real. I'm hopeful that they're find it over time, and soon. A lot of shows do. But ultimately, that's what the show is lacking. Greater serialization wouldn't have helped with that at all.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Jeph Loeb seriously needs to leave Marvel TV.

The fear I have is how much is he going to be involved in the Netflix series.

 

[Dark Raven]

Jeph Loeb seriously needs to leave TV.

Fixed.

 

[Silvermoon]

Jed Whedon and Maurissa Tancharoen Talk Deathlok, Bill Paxton’s Character, Lady Sif, and More on the Set of MARVEL’S AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That's a moot point....I watch *anything* CBM. Even Green Lantern, Elektra, FFROTSS, Ghost Rider 2, the old Blade TV series, Mutant X....I watch any of them, even the crappy ones.


In any event, getting past the whole "toldja so/ nuh-uh" back and forth, I'd like to move on to my favorite pastime: speculation. So....Lorelei. In the comics, she's famous almost entirely for being a seductress, and using love potions to beguile Thor. I doubt Hem's busy schedule will allow for a TV cameo, so I'm wondering what Lorelei's role is, and why Sif was sent after her.

Who sent Sif? *Has* to be Loki, still disguised as Odin. What does Loki want with her? Some kind of scheme up in Asgard, probably reserved for Thor 3.

And what about Lorelei's role on Midgard? Not really sure, but I'm betting that we're going to see Dr. Elliott Randolph again. Remember Randolph talking about that French girl he fell in love with back in the 16th century? Yeah, I'm thinking Lorelei.

Loki could be looking for enchantress and needing loreli for information

 

[Whiskey Tango]

That's a moot point....I watch *anything* CBM. Even Green Lantern, Elektra, FFROTSS, Ghost Rider 2, the old Blade TV series, Mutant X....I watch any of them, even the crappy ones.

Ok then, it's been interesting enough to maintain solid if not spectacular ratings.

Not trying to argue with anyone, I just find it funny that all of a sudden people are acting like the show has been hot garbage all along and was only saved at the Zero Hour by a few brave and heroic fanboys riding a rogue asteroid directly into Jed and Maurissa's office, when imho the show has been pretty good ever since #6 FZZZT. #5 Girl in the Flower Dress was the last one I had any real issues with, and 084 was the only other one that I would consider bad and it was just the second episode.

So that's a rocky six episodes, followed by six solid ones. Maybe the breaks are making it seem like it's been on longer than it actually has or something. Or maybe everybody grown sued to binge watching on dvd/netflix; the weekly wait is a pain in the ass for me anyway.

Anyhow I'm due for a rewatch here as soon as I find the time, I suspect things will flow a little better.

Jeph Loeb seriously needs to leave Marvel TV.

Indeed.

 

[Dark Raven]

Will Mike Peterson actually be called Deathlok, or are they going for the same approach they've had in some other Marvel movies where he's not actually referred to by name, but we just know it's supposed to be him?

What would be the reasoning behind giving him that name?

 

[The Question]

Will Mike Peterson actually be called Deathlok, or are they going for the same approach they've had in some other Marvel movies where he's not actually referred to by name, but we just know it's supposed to be him?

I really don't see that as being any kind of approach. It's basic storytelling. You give out the information the audience needs to know what's going on when it would be appropriate and when it would feel natural. It makes sense for the rest of the Avengers to refer to Iron Man as "Tony" or "Stark" while he's in the suit because that's what they're used to calling him when he's not, especially since he doesn't have a secret identity in the MCU. Likewise, it makes sense that they generally refer to Captain America as "Captain," both because he's more well known under the name Captain America and Captain is shorter to say, and because even out of costume he holds the rank of Captain and thus it's his official title.

It all comes down to the way that people are talking sounding like the way people talk.

What would be the reasoning behind giving him that name?

I'm assuming it would be his call sign or code name when on missions. You know, they refer to him as Deathlok in their documentation and when communicating with him in the field for security purposes. Same reason the Secret Service refers to the President as "Eagle" or "Timber wolf" or "Renegade" or why soldiers use call signs over the radio when communicating with each other.

(Also, as an aside, Timber wolf and Renegade are the Secret Service code names for George W. Bush and Barack Obama, respectively)

 

[Shikamaru]

The fear I have is how much is he going to be involved in the Netflix series.

Me too. Especially Daredevil. I feel he will water and dumb it down in the same way he does to everything else.

 

[The Question]

I think people overestimate Jeph Loeb's negative influence.

 

[Dark Raven]

I really don't see that as being any kind of approach. It's basic storytelling. You give out the information the audience needs to know what's going on when it would be appropriate and when it would feel natural. It makes sense for the rest of the Avengers to refer to Iron Man as "Tony" or "Stark" while he's in the suit because that's what they're used to calling him when he's not, especially since he doesn't have a secret identity in the MCU. Likewise, it makes sense that they generally refer to Captain America as "Captain," both because he's more well known under the name Captain America and Captain is shorter to say, and because even out of costume he holds the rank of Captain and thus it's his official title.

It all comes down to the way that people are talking sounding like the way people talk.



I'm assuming it would be his call sign or code name when on missions. You know, they refer to him as Deathlok in their documentation and when communicating with him in the field for security purposes. Same reason the Secret Service refers to the President as "Eagle" or "Timber wolf" or "Renegade" or why soldiers use call signs over the radio when communicating with each other.

(Also, as an aside, Timber wolf and Renegade are the Secret Service code names for George W. Bush and Barack Obama, respectively)

Well then they should use "Iron Man", "Hawkeye", "Black Widow" etc as their call signs in the same way, instead of Stark, Barton or Romanov.

"Iron Man" is no sillier than "Iceman" or "Wolfman" in Top Gun, and "Hawkeye" just sounds like a typical call sign.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Ok then, it's been interesting enough to maintain solid if not spectacular ratings.

Not trying to argue with anyone, I just find it funny that all of a sudden people are acting like the show has been hot garbage all along and was only saved at the Zero Hour .

Both sides are acting rediculous... the people who've hated the show from the start because it's nothing at all like they expected... (either Avengers 2.0 full of supes, or a Dark Knight level drama akin to 24) It was quite clear it was going to be neither of those from anyone actually following the news about the show...

then there's those who are acting like the show is suddenly "saved" when basically all they're saying is "I just want comic people on the show, i don't care how well the characters are written, i just want comic people popping up" sort of like a dog just wanting it's treat... While the show has gotten quite enjoyable for me... the characters took quite a bit for me to begin to like them or get invested in, and I think that was the real problem for the show in the beginning. Any story can work well with compelling characters... and they don't have to be comic-book characters to make them compelling. that's a crutch.

 

[The Question]

Well then they should use "Iron Man", "Hawkeye", "Black Widow" etc as their call signs in the same way, instead of Stark, Barton or Romanov.

"Iron Man" is no sillier than "Iceman" or "Wolfman" in Top Gun, and "Hawkeye" just sounds like a typical call sign.

Well, it's not like they had gotten together to discuss and organize protocol because the battle of New York. That was, effectively, the moment that the team formed, and really not a moment where call signs or codewords or any kind of secrecy was an immediate concern. Their immediate concern was containing the invading force, minimizing loss of life, and shutting down the portal. In that moment, when focusing on something more important, they spoke in a way that came naturally to them. That's good writing.

In the sequel? Yeah, that'd be pretty neat if they're in a situation that calls for that, but it's not a problem in the films we've already got.

 

[The Ironstar]

Impatiences can cause people on geek fourms to do foolish things.