Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion - Part 7

[SHIELDtv]

That is exactly the point I was making: The goal of the connections should have been to make the show compelling enough to maintain interest. Loeb claimed that the writers have been leaving "a trail of breadcrumbs," but the connections should have been apparent all along.

So what you're saying is you want the entire arc of the series laid out in episode one so we know what's going to happen? That's not a show I would bother watching. The hints were there about some of the things to come and some of us have been saying since the start that there WAS an ongoing arc for anyone who actually opened their eyes to it, if we'd known all the specifics, how boring!

Loeb's determination to keep the show episodic worked against it, and it's pretty clear that the network realized that from Paul Lee's remarks.

I don't recall any official source ever saying anything about Loeb insisting on keeping the show episodic. I remember lots of talking about how this series had a two year ongoing plan that they were building on as they introduced the characters.

Lee owned up to the fact that AOS has been a disappointment to ABC creatively

Umm.. that's kind of twisting words. I can only assume you mean the "finding our feet" comment. "Finding your feet" and being "disappointed in creativity" are NOT the same thing, far from it.

 

[fixxxer]

I know this was in response to xeno, but I wanted to reply to some of that. Let me preface all this by saying that I was never as down on the show as xeno (and a few others) were, and I do think that they've fixed many of my qualms in the last couple of episodes. However...

So what you're saying is you want the entire arc of the series laid out in episode one so we know what's going to happen? That's not a show I would bother watching. The hints were there about some of the things to come and some of us have been saying since the start that there WAS an ongoing arc for anyone who actually opened their eyes to it, if we'd known all the specifics, how boring!

No, laying down the entire manifest in episode one would obviously not be the way to go. However, a majority of the first few episodes were disjoint, until we were able to retroactively piece the connections together. For example, whoever was behind Akela Amador's eyepiece could have been revealed to be the Centipede organization during the stinger of that episode. Similarly, the fact that Ian Quinn was working for (or associated with) Centipede.

It was a creative decision to have those reveals come down the line (I believe in episodes 10 and 12 respectively) but I think it would have worked better for the show to have those threads connected as we moved along. I also think this cost them quite a few viewers, who might not have left if they knew they were watching something that was actually part of a larger overarching theme.

I don't recall any official source ever saying anything about Loeb insisting on keeping the show episodic. I remember lots of talking about how this series had a two year ongoing plan that they were building on as they introduced the characters.

I don't think any concrete evidence, but Loeb's television sensibilities are pretty well documented as of now. I, for one, was extremely concerned about the level of creative control he might have over the show. And this was way before Agents of SHIELD even premiered. While I found the initial episodes to be a reasonably entertaining, their worst parts seemed (to me at least) to always reek of Loeb's "input".

Umm.. that's kind of twisting words. I can only assume you mean the "finding our feet" comment. "Finding your feet" and being "disappointed in creativity" are NOT the same thing, far from it.

I obviously can't speak for xeno, but Lee's comments, at the very least, are an acknowledgement that there were some aspects of the show that were not working and that efforts would be taken to fix them.

 

[SHIELDtv]

No, laying down the entire manifest in episode one would obviously not be the way to go. However, a majority of the first few episodes were disjoint, until we were able to retroactively piece the connections together. For example, whoever was behind Akela Amador's eyepiece could have been revealed to be the Centipede organization during the stinger of that episode. Similarly, the fact that Ian Quinn was working for (or associated with) Centipede.

It was a creative decision to have those reveals come down the line (I believe in episodes 10 and 12 respectively) but I think it would have worked better for the show to have those threads connected as we moved along. I also think this cost them quite a few viewers, who might not have left if they knew they were watching something that was actually part of a larger overarching theme.

I don't think any concrete evidence, but Loeb's television sensibilities are pretty well documented as of now. I, for one, was extremely concerned about the level of creative control he might have over the show. And this was way before Agents of SHIELD even premiered. While I found the initial episodes to be a reasonably entertaining, their worst parts seemed (to me at least) to always reek of Loeb's "input".

Perhaps your preconception that this "episodic" thing was going to be a problem may have stopped you from seeing the seeds they were sewing for the bigger picture that some of us picked up on?

 

[Xeno]

I wish he'd gone into more detail about the look of Deathlok, but very excited to see that they have included

Spoiler

Cybertek Systems Inc., and hopefully they keep that it is a division of Roxxon, holy crap we might get Warwolf !!!

Spoiler

Roxxon was already behind the rather sinister and dangerous experiments that led to one of its technicians being exiled to another dimension in Repairs. It's quite possible that the shady corporation was attempting to create portals to other realms that would mimic the Bifrost Effect. So it wouldn't be surprising if their scientists are at the back of the experiments that create Deathlok, as well. One has to wonder whether Roxxon is the true backer of Centipede, if it turns out that they turned Mike into a cyborg.

Whatever they do with Roxxon, I hope we'll one day see Sunturion.

 

[fixxxer]

Perhaps your preconception that this "episodic" thing was going to be a problem may have stopped you from seeing the seeds they were sewing for the bigger picture that some of us picked up on?

I don't think. I mean, I've spent a lot of time speculating just that. But that's all it was... just speculation. Based on what the show actually gave us, I don't think there was any factual basis for connecting those threads.

 

[seahammer]

Marvel's Deathlok Set for Agents of SHIELD


IGN gives some details about scenes from upcoming episodes featuring Mike Peterson, John Garrett, Stan Lee and Sif. There are spoilers so be mindful of that if you read the article.

Thanks for that link, Xeno.

It sounds like Sif's interaction with Lorelei will be a good one. In the clip they describe in the article, Lorelei [BLACKOUT]mentions Sif's feelings unrequited feelings for Thor[/BLACKOUT]. Glad they're taking the opportunity add some depth to that!

Looking forward to Bill Paxton and Deathlok, too!

 

[Xeno]

Umm.. that's kind of twisting words. I can only assume you mean the "finding our feet" comment. "Finding your feet" and being "disappointed in creativity" are NOT the same thing, far from it.

There's no need to twist Lee's words when you read what he actually said. He never said anything about "finding our feet," by the way. He said that it took time for the show to find its sea legs, but he believes that it is currently doing well. Lee is a network president with many problems in his primetime lineup so he phrased things delicately, but the takeaway from his comments was that he acknowledges that the show has had problems creatively but now thinks that it is in a better place. And he specifically mentioned the fact that the writers didn't find the balance between a procedural (episodic) show and one with an ongoing story arc until recently. Lee said that the last nine episodes are "now arced out," tacitly admitting that the previous 13 were not, which is exactly what some of us have been discussing here.


When the network president himself admits to structural problems in the show that many critics and fans have long pointed out it's rather futile for anyone to deny that those problems exist.

"It was obviously disappointing that we started with a very high number and it came down. It took a little bit of time to find our sea legs, but now the show is really doing well.

"Creatively, we are loving what we're seeing for the back nine. We're doing a lot of work, and I'm really enjoying doing this with Marvel."

Lee went on to say that it "took a little bit of time" in order to establish the show's "mythology."

He added:

"I think the key for us was really starting to work closely with the studios, and really figure out - with our showrunners and all the creative brains - how we could have a show that didn't have Iron Man in it, but did have an incredible amount of the Marvel universe."

"We also took a little bit of time to get the balance between a procedural and an arc. I'm so proud of how they've now arced out the last nine episodes."

http://www.blastr.com/2014-1-20/abc...ents-shield-saying-its-now-found-its-sea-legs

 

[The Question]

Half of what you said could apply to Lex Luthor.(In fact,Id say Killian made a damn good Luthor)

Yeah, because, turns out, many comic book super villains have some traits in common. That doesn't mean anything.

But that doesn't change the fact that he bore virtually none of the trappings of the original character's concept.Any way you slice it,the version we got was "half baked Mandarin."

But none of those "trappings" were what defined the character as a character. They were all surface. The things that defined him as a character, as in, in things that matter, remained intact. And, like I said, they didn't change the character to any greater extent than Ra's Al Ghul was changed in Batman Begins. Changed his race, altered his supernatural power source into something else, faked the audience out with a decoy, and introduced him to the audience as another, lesser known character from the comics. Was Ra's in that movie a half baked Ra's Al Ghul?

 

[Silvermoon]

Who's to say that this hasn't been in the plans all along? I man were talking about Marvel here, the company that has set up a years long storyline with characters. I don't think they've just been winging the show, it's all a part of the plan from the beginning.

But now that these things are starting to come to light people are jumping to "oh they knew they screwed up and now they've fixed it" scenarios. When in reality all signs point to this is how it's been planned all along.

It's still very much the same show they originally pitched; normal shield agents going against superhuman and other world threats. Nothing has changed the show is just progressing as its been planned to.

All this news is fantastic, I can't wait for the rest of this season and the multiple seasons beyond!!

Lest we all start peeing ourselves, the show is still more or less about norms in a superhuman world, and they never said the show wouldn't feature powers or Marvel characters. I'm seeing a fair amount of self-congratulatory back slapping where I suspect none is really deserved.

edit: or what mkilban2 said^^

Agreed. I've no doubt that the things we're currently seeing (and are hearing about coming up in the next couple episodes) were planned before feedback started coming in. In fact, it reminds me of a quote from one of the creators (can't remember if it was one of the Whedons or someone else) a month or so ago that promised more 'Marvel' in the show was on the way. Looks like we're now reaching the point that was spoken of - which adds to my belief of these particular things being planned from the beginning.

Personally, I've been perfectly fine with how the show has been playing out so far. I wasn't expecting (or wanting) a show that focused on Superheroes (I'm fine with them being side characters/the occasional guest-spot) - if I wanted something that focuses on them, I'd watch the MCU films. This film was always touted to focus on the normal people, the heroes that aren't super, having to deal with things that aren't necessarily big enough to call in the big guns. I feel like we've gotten what was promised, and I'm for one happy with it. I'm hoping that they don't shift away from that focus.

Just my opinion (hope it made sense)

 

[Huddsy]

The whole "It's All Connected" pitch does not retroactively erase the show's shortcomings. The episodes should have been "arced," as Paul Lee put it, from the beginning, in ways that the audience could recognize as the show went on. The writing has been lacking in many areas all along, with more cringe-worthy moments than great ones. The writing needs to show major improvement to be able to support the show's ambitions.

Sure, the writing has been very up-and-down, but so is a lot of shows of this nature. People have gotten used to HBO and new AMC stuff like GoT, BB, etc. and it's hard for normal cable to live up to it now. The hope is that as they get going and the characters become more and more involved in the writers, that they will, in fact, improve. Which tends to happen with sci-fi shows that have a bit longer runs.

Again, I point to Stargate SG-1, one of the most successful sci-fi shows ever. Go back and re-watch it. Started out very cringeworthy with cookie cutter characters and facepalm moments. By the end of that show, people who invested in it would consider people like Teal'c 'friends', because they got deeper into those characters and made them 3-dimensional.

You have unrealistic expectations for something great from day one. Very few shows capture that.

The whole "it's all connected" thing means absolutely nothing if the show doesn't put an effort to not only "arc" the episodes, but to create hype and keep you invested. Breaking Bad hooked people on from the very beginning and it too had an overall plan from the very beginning.

Plus, that still doesn't excuse the show's boring characterizations and pacing. I don't care how much of a "plan" you have, there is no reason for why the pacing had to be that slow for the first half.

Uh, no it didn't. BB was extremely up-and-down until Season 3. I'm in rewatch mode of Breaking Bad at the moment, and trust me, you see the connections now but back then it was more of an "OH MY GOD! WHY DO I CARE?" type feeling.

 

[cherokeesam]

There's no need to twist Lee's words when you read what he actually said. He never said anything about "finding our feet," by the way. He said that it took time for the show to find its sea legs, but he believes that it is currently doing well. Lee is a network president with many problems in his primetime lineup so he phrased things delicately, but the takeaway from his comments was that he acknowledges that the show has had problems creatively but now thinks that it is in a better place. And he specifically mentioned the fact that the writers didn't find the balance between a procedural (episodic) show and one with an ongoing story arc until recently. Lee said that the last nine episodes are "now arced out," tacitly admitting that the previous 13 were not, which is exactly what some of us have been discussing here.


When the network president himself admits to structural problems in the show that many critics and fans have long pointed out it's rather futile for anyone to deny that those problems exist.




http://www.blastr.com/2014-1-20/abc...ents-shield-saying-its-now-found-its-sea-legs

Damn straight.

This "that was the plan all along" defense rings hollow because the simple fact of the matter is that AOS' failure to arc from the very beginning killed off a huge portion of the audience after the pilot episode. Yes, making this a show about superheroes and starting to salt it with more comic-book canon is a major step in the right direction towards the show everybody asked for from the beginning; but the audience has long since abandoned ship, hanging on by fingernails at the 2.0 mark.

It remains to be seen if this news is enough to bring back audiences who gave up on AOS a long time ago. I certainly hope so, but I'm not willing to bet money on that happening. Could be a little too little, a little too late.

Anyone who thinks "let's don't make the show interesting until the halfway point of the first season" is a smart marketing strategy should really take a remedial course in Sell This ***** 101.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That is exactly the point I was making: The goal of the connections should have been to make the show compelling enough to maintain interest. Loeb claimed that the writers have been leaving "a trail of breadcrumbs," but the connections should have been apparent all along. Loeb's determination to keep the show episodic worked against it, and it's pretty clear that the network realized that from Paul Lee's remarks.


Lee owned up to the fact that AOS has been a disappointment to ABC creatively and in terms of ratings, not a total disaster but definitely not what the network expected. He made it very clear that he and other ABC execs have been actively involved in the process of shaping AOS into a format they think will be more successful than the first part of the season was. Things appear to be headed in a better direction now but it's a bit premature to declare that all the problems have been solved.

Im not too sure on that. I think 90% of shows in this genre (buffy, smallville, arrow, etc) tend to have a very episodic first season. Sure, there's minor story archs that branch over the whole season but they're all very "villain of the week" and compartmentalized at first. Its a necessity in this genre in order to build and develop the world they're trying to define.

I think they know what they've been doing from the start. It was just "too slow" if a burn for some of you

 

[Huddsy]

Damn straight.

This "that was the plan all along" defense rings hollow because the simple fact of the matter is that AOS' failure to arc from the very beginning killed off a huge portion of the audience after the pilot episode. Yes, making this a show about superheroes and starting to salt it with more comic-book canon is a major step in the right direction towards the show everybody asked for from the beginning; but the audience has long since abandoned ship, hanging on by fingernails at the 2.0 mark.

It remains to be seen if this news is enough to bring back audiences who gave up on AOS a long time ago. I certainly hope so, but I'm not willing to bet money on that happening. Could be a little too little, a little too late.

Anyone who thinks "let's don't make the show interesting until the halfway point of the first season" is a smart marketing strategy should really take a remedial course in Sell This ***** 101.

Go find me a regular cable thriller/sci-fi/spy show that didn't take some time to get going. I'll wait...

Im not too sure on that. I think 90% of shows in this genre (buffy, smallville, arrow, etc) tend to have a very episodic first season. Sure, there's minor story archs that branch over the whole season but they're all very "villain of the week" and compartmentalized at first. Its a necessity in this genre in order to build and develop the world they're trying to define.

I think they know what they've been doing from the start. It was just "too slow" if a burn for some of you

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Damn straight.

This "that was the plan all along" defense rings hollow because the simple fact of the matter is that AOS' failure to arc from the very beginning killed off a huge portion of the audience after the pilot episode. Yes, making this a show about superheroes and starting to salt it with more comic-book canon is a major step in the right direction towards the show everybody asked for from the beginning; but the audience has long since abandoned ship, hanging on by fingernails at the 2.0 mark.

It remains to be seen if this news is enough to bring back audiences who gave up on AOS a long time ago. I certainly hope so, but I'm not willing to bet money on that happening. Could be a little too little, a little too late.

Anyone who thinks "let's don't make the show interesting until the halfway point of the first season" is a smart marketing strategy should really take a remedial course in Sell This ***** 101.

That totally wasn't the reason it lost audience. there were several people who fir some reason didn't get the memo about the show being about semi-normal people in a superhero world... And expected the avenger and others to pop up "pew pew"-ing in most episodes.

I dont honestly think an episodic or non episodic format loses viewers that quickly. It just wasn't the right show for some. There was ALWAYS a predicted viewer decrease. But the ratings have been actually climbing in the last few episodes. And is far from hurting.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

but the connections should have been apparent all along.

weren't they? most of them were pretty obvious

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

I don't recall any official source ever saying anything about Loeb insisting on keeping the show episodic.

because no one ever said that. Loeb mentioned he prefers episodic shows last year, but that was in context of animated shows and had nothing to do with live action television.

 

[Crimson King]

I'm excited for the upcoming changes, but let's not kid ourselves--this show was not firing on all cylinders from day 1. We'll never know exactly what their plan was, but it's pretty clear that it wasn't working out for most people, as evidenced by their declining viewership. Even if it was their plan to have a 10-episode slow build, it was a bad plan. It's up to them to make sure these next few episodes are good enough to bring back disgruntled fans.

 

[Shikamaru]

Uh, no it didn't. BB was extremely up-and-down until Season 3. I'm in rewatch mode of Breaking Bad at the moment, and trust me, you see the connections now but back then it was more of an "OH MY GOD! WHY DO I CARE?" type feeling.

To you. I was hooked on from the very beginning first time I saw it. Honestly, you're the first person I ever heard say that.

I'm excited for the upcoming changes, but let's not kid ourselves--this show was not firing on all cylinders from day 1. We'll never know exactly what their plan was, but it's pretty clear that it wasn't working out for most people, as evidenced by their declining viewership. Even if it was their plan to have a 10-episode slow build, it was a bad plan. It's up to them to make sure these next few episodes are good enough to bring back disgruntled fans.

Exactly.

As I said before, you need to at least build some hype to keep your viewers interested. The first half of Season 1 of Arrow was no better written than this show's first half. They were both about equally "meh". However, Arrow at least managed to hype people up with things like the island's mystery, Deathstroke, Malcolm's plan, cliffhangers like Oliver being arrested for vigilantism at the end of an episode, etc. That's kept people watching despite the show's not-so-good quality. It created a "I really don't want to watch this show feeling but I have to because it's teasing me with x and y".

This show made no effort whatsoever to build hype. Hence, as you said, it was a bad plan.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Anyone who thinks "let's don't make the show interesting until the halfway point of the first season" is a smart marketing strategy should really take a remedial course in Sell This ***** 101.

It's been interesting enough to keep you watching, hasn't it? The shows not great but it's far from awful.

 

[Huddsy]

To you. I was hooked on from the very beginning. Honestly, you're the first person I ever heard say that.

We got into the stuff with Tuco in Season 2 and my fiancee had to stop watching she was so bored -- and she's a tv connoisseur. A lot fo other people I know have all said in watching it, the first season is slow and doesn't pick up for a bit.

 

[Shikamaru]

We got into the stuff with Tuco in Season 2 and my fiancee had to stop watching she was so bored -- and she's a tv connoisseur. A lot fo other people I know have all said in watching it, the first season is slow and doesn't pick up for a bit.

I disagree.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

To you. I was hooked on from the very beginning first time I saw it. Honestly, you're the first person I ever heard say that.

You heard him?

but really, season one of BB bored the hell out of a lot of people back when it originally aired, I know quite a few who stopped watching it then. the series became popular with season 3

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Anyone who thinks "let's don't make the show interesting until the halfway point of the first season" is a smart marketing strategy should really take a remedial course in Sell This ***** 101.

some times I feel some people discovered TV shows very recently. I know great genre shows with very rabid fans that took two or three seasons to get as interesting as AoS is now. Almost every sci fi show in the late 80ies or 90ies for an example (with the exception of Babylon 5 which was awesome from day 1) TNG, Stargate, X-Files, Buffy, Farscape, DS9, Smallville..
It's 101 storytelling, you need time to set up the world and the characters, before you get to tell your meta plot. AoS did this very fast and effective.

 

[Shikamaru]

You heard him?

Way to nitpick.

but really, season one of BB bored the hell out of a lot of people back when it originally aired, I know quite a few who stopped watching it then. the series became popular with season 3

A show's popularity does not equate to its quality. There are shows that start out really popular and fade away when they do get better, shows that start out not that popular and get popular when they get worse, shows that never get too popular despite deserving it and the laundry list goes on. "The series became popular with season 3" is an irrelevant premise when it comes to the show's quality overall.

Though I have to ask, what were you expecting with a season that was only like 6 episodes long? I thought plenty of stuff happened in the first season given its length. There is nothing I can see that was dragged out too much, unlike this show pre-break.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Though I have to ask, what were you expecting with a season that was only like 6 episodes long? .

Sherlock S1 was 3 episodes long and was far superior in an apples and oranges way.