BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - Part 248

[Mrs. Wayne]

Every single one of these things has been done, to fantastic effect, in modern Superman stories.

People who level complaints against the character Superman about him being overpowered, not-relatable etc, either aren't reading, or aren't absorbing and understanding, modern Superman stories. Writers tumbled to these things more than a decade ago.

The only thing that will change the conception of Superman being "boring" is if our culture suddenly changes to find badass, conflict-ridden people boring and straightforward, morally grounded people badass. Not likely to happen.

Some people's views on Superman and how he should be characterized have sometimes been a little elementary. The character is interesting and can become even more captivating when we don't limit him to bright, and cheery super - powerful man that can lift stuff.

 

[Tobias]

So you know better than everyone else do you? Come on. Your paranoia is ridiculous mate.

Don't try to tell me I don't understand Superman.



I don't think it's shifted so much to Batman either tbh, there has been a big push of him been in the film but it's always that way when a film has a new antagonist/villain. Even the comic con trailer, everything was pretty much about Superman. Even the other stuff it's been about Batman's problems with Superman.

I don't know better than anyone else. its all opinion. The whole point of this threads discussion.

I never said you don't understand Superman.

Please.

I think, based on the trailers, if Superman is forever a scowling character in the film it will not connect. Forget Clark, the key in part for BvS is to reignite interest in Superman. I think, based on trailers so far, it may not work.

But then I may be wrong.
Y

 

[dario2739]

Some people's views on Superman and how he should be characterized have sometimes been a little elementary. The character is interesting and can become even more captivating when we don't limit him to bright, and cheery super - powerful man that can lift stuff.

It seems to me that the reason (so-called) fans and critics whine about MoS's portrayal of Superman is that he simply isn't the Donner/Reeve Superman of their childhood... this is a blinkered vision of a character that has been around now for almost 78yrs and people can only relate to one iteration of him!

 

[GreenKToo]

Yeah, Superman should smile more. I'm hoping we see him smile and say "have a great day" as he punches Doomsday in the face.
Or as he carts a criminal off to jail,
Or as he puts out the apartment fire.
Turn that frown upside down superman.

 

[Tobias]

It seems to me that the reason (so-called) fans and critics whine about MoS's portrayal of Superman is that he simply isn't the Donner/Reeve Superman of their childhood... this is a blinkered vision of a character that has been around now for almost 78yrs and people can only relate to one iteration of him!

I sort of agree - just sort of.

SR was too much a homage to the past IMO. MOS was too much a break from the past IMO.

Finding that middle route which I feel MOS did not do is tough.

The jury is out with BvS for me. Can Superman be re-directed from either extreme to a path forward that engages audiences and leaves them wanting more.

 

[antoineflemming]

Yeah, Superman should smile more. I'm hoping we see him smile and say "have a great day" as he punches Doomsday in the face.
Or as he carts a criminal off to jail,
Or as he puts out the apartment fire.
Turn that frown upside down superman.

Why would he smile in a serious situation? This isnt the campy 70s. You can find plenty of that in Marvel Studios' films.

 

[BH/HHH]

I don't know better than anyone else. its all opinion. The whole point of this threads discussion.

I never said you don't understand Superman.

Please.

I think, based on the trailers, if Superman is forever a scowling character in the film it will not connect. Forget Clark, the key in part for BvS is to reignite interest in Superman. I think, based on trailers so far, it may not work.

But then I may be wrong.
Y

Well it came across that way.

I think you are stuck on one or two interpretations of the characters, very much the Christopher Reeve/Gerard Christopher versions. News flash for you they weren't always smiling either, they smiled when it was called for.

Also you do know we ever seen like 3% of BvS in all the trailers, TV spots etc.

 

[BH/HHH]

It seems to me that the reason (so-called) fans and critics whine about MoS's portrayal of Superman is that he simply isn't the Donner/Reeve Superman of their childhood... this is a blinkered vision of a character that has been around now for almost 78yrs and people can only relate to one iteration of him!

Exactky, it's frustrating and what annoys me most is those versions weren't evens all smiling. They smiled when the scenes called for it and they were lighter interpretations so that was a lot. But when s**t got serious those versions git serious and scowled.

 

[Rogzilla]

Zack Snyder: Here is my Superman movie!
Internet: THAT'S NOT SUPERMAN!!!! YOU CHANGED HIM!
Zack Snyder: Well, I looked at the original canon, the comic books, rather than redoing what was done before in the movies.
Internet: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, THE GATEKEEPER OF SUPERMAN?! THERE'S BEEN SO MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF SUPERMAN, HOW DARE YOU SAY YOU YOU ALONE KNOW THE "TRUE CANON"!
Zack Synder: Superman and all the DC Comics characters are massive icons that have evolved over time and will continue to grow and evolve beyond their current writers, artists, actors and directors.
Internet: NO! THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO DO SUPERMAN! IGNORE WHAT WE SAID ABOUT DIFFERENT VERSIONS, ONLY ONE VERSION MATTERS, THE ONE WE PERSONALLY LIKE.

I'm not the only person noticing this, right? Am I on crazy pills?

 

[TDKR1977]

Why would he smile in a serious situation? This isnt the campy 70s. You can find plenty of that in Marvel Studios' films.

The sarcasm. You missed it.

 

[dario2739]

I sort of agree - just sort of.

SR was too much a homage to the past IMO. MOS was too much a break from the past IMO.

Finding that middle route which I feel MOS did no,t do is tough.

The jury is out with BvS for me. Can Superman be re-directed from either extreme to a path forward that engages audiences and leaves them wanting more.

I genuinely don't understand this point of view re MoS –

Imagine if you were Kal/Clark...
Imagine how you would struggle to control your powers - to control your fear, worrying why you!
Imagine how overjoyed and overwhelmed you'd be when you finally found your real history.
Imagine the mixed emotions of finding out you're not the only survivor of your planet after all... only to discover the other survivors mean to destroy the only home you've ever known.
Superman's journey to become the beacon of hope for us all is a dark path filled with tradgedy - and I applaud MoS for finally showing us that, for attempting to try and portray what Clark would have gone through growing up... we know the hero he will become, and he will be all the stronger for the suffering and struggle to get there.

The Donner Superman we all love is an amazing movie - but it's a product of it's time, rather like the Batman TV show of the 1960s or the Hulk of the 1970s.

 

[Rorschach2012]

move this to the MOS section. Again with the exact same conversation

 

[Tobias]

Well it came across that way.

I think you are stuck on one or two interpretations of the characters, very much the Christopher Reeve/Gerard Christopher versions. News flash for you they weren't always smiling either, they smiled when it was called for.

Also you do know we ever seen like 3% of BvS in all the trailers, TV spots etc.

If it came across that that way, I apologize. We both love the character.

I am not hung up on Reeve at all. S3 and 4 sucked. Can I say that.

I am, truth to tell, hung up a bit on GC/Superboy. The suit, the season 3 and 4 stories on a showstring budget - but written by comic book authors at the time. Carey Bates for instance who penned th Superman 5 that was planned to follow the TV series.

Yes, Superman needs to grow beyond that and I am not sure I am seeing that growth, proper growth, in the BvS trailers. Yet, you are right, a small percentage of the film has been revealed in the trailers.

I honestly think Superman needs to have a bit of fun, a twinkle in his eyes, "goofing" with some villains.

We are, at core, on the same page.

 

[GreenKToo]

The sarcasm. You missed it.

Sarcasm? Nevah.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Deathstroke isn't allowed to be in Arrow anymore because there are big screen plans for him. The embargo is totally still in effect. I'm interested in seeing what this means for the DC tv shows in a few years... it'll be especially interesting to see where this leaves the CW Flash. Based on some comments we've heard from Kevin Smith and Geoff Johns, i think it's entirely possible that Ezra's Flash will show up on the CW show, i think that's more lkely than Gustin being in a DCEU film.

Also, I wonder where Deathstroke will show up. I've always liked the idea of Deathstroke working alongside Luthor. They work well together. I would love to see both of them in the Legion of Doom once they finally get around to that.. also, Deathstroke pretty much has to be the villain of the Cyborg/Titans film.

 

[Bren]

I don't want Superman to be smiling all over the place, but I do want to see more scenes where he is more lighthearted and optimistic. Of course, if the plot and his arc is such that he isn't in a situation where he's justified to do so, then don't force it.

But I would indeed like to see more situations where he is allowed to show more of a fun happy side. And I don't think it's unfair of me to desire that they find the opportunity to do that.

 

[DerekLake]

The Atlantic nails it on Superman. IMO.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/the-trouble-with-superman/435408/

Every single one of these things has been done, to fantastic effect, in modern Superman stories.

People who level complaints against the character Superman about him being overpowered, not-relatable etc, either aren't reading, or aren't absorbing and understanding, modern Superman stories. Writers tumbled to these things more than a decade ago.

The only thing that will change the conception of Superman being "boring" is if our culture suddenly changes to find badass, conflict-ridden people boring and straightforward, morally grounded people badass. Not likely to happen.

Yes, more than a decade ago. I'd agree that Superman isn't overpowered and he is relatable. But I'd also suggest that he does still lack, on a consistent basis, the sort of compelling dual identities, allies and villains that have made both Spider-Man and Batman such popular and dynamic characters. It's not that it hasn't been done before, it's that it isn't being done now, in a way that speaks to the current comics audience.

For example, DC has decided to collapse Clark's dual identities into one, after neglecting "Clark Kent". But the best thing about Spider-Man, for example, is that he is equally compelling in and out of costume. Superman could use consistent writing that does that for him, especially now. It's why I like what BvS is doing with Clark Kent.

Another point, and this particularly for future Superman sequels, is that he really needs a far more diverse cast of villains. I'm worried that Superman just isn't going to have any villains left for a meaningful sequel. Zod's done, Lex and Doomsday are in BvS, either Darkseid or Brainiac will be showing up in Justice League. That's essentially the entire roster of Superman villains who can hold a film by themselves. Others that may be good, such as Parasite, Bizarro, Mongul, even Toyman, just aren't unique enough or compelling enough for this Superman. Again, Spider-Man and Batman just have so many more interesting villains.

 

[GreenKToo]

Deathstroke isn't allowed to be in Arrow anymore because there are big screen plans for him. The embargo is totally still in effect. I'm interested in seeing what this means for the DC tv shows in a few years... it'll be especially interesting to see where this leaves the CW Flash. Based on some comments we've heard from Kevin Smith and Geoff Johns, i think it's entirely possible that Ezra's Flash will show up on the CW show, i think that's more lkely than Gustin being in a DCEU film.

Also, I wonder where Deathstroke will show up. I've always liked the idea of Deathstroke working alongside Luthor. They work well together. I would love to see both of them in the Legion of Doom once they finally get around to that.. also, Deathstroke pretty much has to be the villain of the Cyborg/Titans film.

It would never happen of course, but imagine the cw's flash entering the speedforce and seeing all these alternate realities. just quick glimpses as he speeds on.
There is keaton's batman 89, there is chris reeve's superman, there is bale's batman, then cavill's superman, etc etc.

 

[Ahasverus]

Is MoS the most discussed movie ever on the Internet? I think it is.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Is MoS the most discussed movie ever on the Internet? I think it is.

For such a "divisive" film, I don't think I've seen another CBM broken down, examined, and put back together as often as MoS. You'd think it were an adaptation of the Iliad or Odyssey. Haters gonna hate, but at the end of the day you won't get half as much discussion from IM of Avengers.

 

[Tobias]

For such a "divisive" film, I don't think I've seen another CBM broken down, examined, and put back together as often as MoS. You'd think it were an adaptation of the Iliad or Odyssey. Haters gonna hate, but at the end of the day you won't get half as much discussion from IM of Avengers.

Its actually an opportunity for WB that, hopefully, they capitalize on.

MOS was divisive, it underperformed at the BO - expectations.

Yet controversy breeds interest and, if WB can readjust those things vis a vis Supes from MOS that did not connect, its a perfect chance to re-launch him. Especially with Bats as the catalyst in BvS.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

For such a "divisive" film, I don't think I've seen another CBM broken down, examined, and put back together as often as MoS. You'd think it were an adaptation of the Iliad or Odyssey. Haters gonna hate, but at the end of the day you won't get half as much discussion from IM of Avengers.

I find it more interesting that there aren't many people that thought it was just okay or fair enough. It's either the film equivalent of the second coming of Christ or the worst film ever unleashed on the human race for most people as I see it.

 

[brandeezy89]

Back on topic, the trailer music sounds great. It sounds like one of those trailers where only a couple sentences are spoken throughout, similar to the Fate of this planet trailer in MOS

 

[Rorschach2012]

It would never happen of course, but imagine the cw's flash entering the speedforce and seeing all these alternate realities. just quick glimpses as he speeds on.
There is keaton's batman 89, there is chris reeve's superman, there is bale's batman, then cavill's superman, etc etc.

Dude that would be amazing.

it's really only one step further than connecting the DCCWU with the DCEU

 

[RadioSha]

We talking about MOS?

I just wanna say I've always loved the hard-cut transition from Kal-El's ship landing and ship suddenly crashing into the waves. It was clever and very kubricky. Just a simple cut. No funny business. Reminded me of the bone to spaceship edit in 2001.