BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion

[ArmsHeldOut]

Not sure if this was already posted or not, but apparently the VFX supervisor for MOS, Ged Wright, released a very short video featuring HD shots from the film several days ago. Found it on CBM.com, but here's the direct link: http://vimeo.com/71609809

 

[Doctor Jones]

And fans keep ignoring the fact that WB was never a studio created only to produce superhero films. And they ignore how long it took for Marvel's various solo movies themselves to move from the concept and script stage to actual production. This being in a studio that only has to consider making those kinds of films in the first place.

Marvel Studios, upon its inception, took a calculated, short term risk. It paid off in a big way, and now they're able to make more films. Because of the way the company is structured, all it is responsible to for its shareholders, etc, is producing superhero films.

WB can't necessarily afford to take the same type of risk given their structure. It's not a studio structured or designed to work the way Marvel Studios is. And creating another sub-studio for only making DC movies is going to pose the same problem. The financial risk still falls back to the parent company, and by extension, its shareholders.

The thing is, despite them not being a studio made for making comic book films, that still doesn't give them an excuse for not being as competent. They've had these properties for over 30 years. In that time, had they played their cards right, planned accordingly, and I don't mean they needed to release two comic book films a year, Marvel would be the ones trying to play catch up. Especially the climate these films are at right now. It's just right now they're taking it in the direction people have been waiting for.

Now not to take away what they have accomplished. But in terms of diversity and successes, compared to Marvel, there hasn't been as much.

 

[BadrHari]

Hello, SHH members.. I'm a big Superman fan and was wondering if anyone had the time to review my short plot outline of a Superman reboot - or if I were to re-write Man of Steel..... I've posted this on various forums, but no one will take the time to read it. Any feedback is helpful, even if u hate it. Thanks

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=2207777&page=1&pc=57

 

[jmc]

The thing is, despite them not being a studio made for making comic book films, that still doesn't give them an excuse for not being as competent. They've had these properties for over 30 years. In that time, had they played their cards right, planned accordingly, and I don't mean they needed to release two comic book films a year, Marvel would be the ones trying to play catch up. Especially the climate these films are at right now. It's just right now they're taking it in the direction people have been waiting for.

Now not to take away what they have accomplished. But in terms of diversity and successes, compared to Marvel, there hasn't been as much.

This is a load off bull **** because WB has never been a superhero studio. Yes, they've had superhero properties at their disposal but they've also had bunch of other films and film franchises at their disposal. What, they were suppose to just concentrate on superheroes in a bid to suffocate anyone else? Don't get pissy at WB simply because they're 'playing catch-up', which frankly they're not, they're just doing what's in their best interest and doing it their way. Is it really so hard for people to understand that WB has never been and never will be a superhero studio? Honestly, it's as black and white as this - They are not Marvel Studios and they will never have a plan like Marvel Studios.

 

[slumcat]

Wow, I thought fanboyism extended to only actors/directors and movies. Apparently it extends to studios as well and people will tooth and nail defend a studio too.

A studio might be many things, a money making business it is first amongst these things. Making money from us that is.

 

[D.P.]

WB is in trouble point blank.

They don't have a clearly defined plan for a DCU moving forward, and if they do, they haven't revealed their hand so I can only speak on what I know.

Meanwhile, Fiege and Marvel have movies planned out through 2021.

 

[slumcat]

edit

 

[jmc]

Wow, I thought fanboyism extended to only actors/directors and movies. Apparently it extends to studios as well and people will tooth and nail defend a studio too.

A studio might be many things, a money making business it is first amongst these things. Making money from us that is.

It's got nothing to do with being a 'fanboy', it's about looking at the reality of the situation.

 

[slumcat]

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...marvel-planning-as-far-ahead-as-2021-20130808

Fiege says that what's happening in 2015 was planned in 2006. That's just insane. If nothing else, I admire the thought and planning that went into the MCU. It is nothing if not ambitious and fantastically planned out.

They have so many balls in the air, along with 4 solo franchises and 1 group franchise, they also have Doctor Strange, Ant man and Guardians coming up. These guys are aiming for the stars. All the films have received good reviews and good box office.

WB's first coming out was MOS, a enormously expensive film and it right away got trashed by critics and did around 600 million dollars business.

WB need to pull up their socks up.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Sorry to ruin everybody's fantasy world, but if you don't think that MARVEL has shifted plans for a myriad of reasons since they took the gamble to create what we call the MCU these last few years I have a bridge in Brooklyn I could give you a good price on. The had lots of curves thrown their way, no doubt, and adjusted accordingly. What we are seeing coming to fruition now is just one of the many possible paths they could have gone down.

 

[slumcat]

Atleast there ARE paths. WB is stuck on square 1.

 

[D.P.]

Sorry to ruin everybody's fantasy world, but if you don't think that MARVEL has shifted plans for a myriad of reasons since they took the gamble to create what we call the MCU these last few years I have a bridge in Brooklyn I could give you a good price on. The had lots of curves thrown their way, no doubt, and adjusted accordingly. What we are seeing coming to fruition now is just one of the many possible paths they could have gone down.

Nothing is absolute. I'm sure there was always a framework with slight deviations here and there. I wouldn't downplay all the hard work, planning, and foresight they have displayed thus far.

 

[jmc]

You all need to stop *****ing about WB not giving you what you want. The only thing WB owe us are good superhero films. How many and what course they take are entirely up to them.

 

[NosfeRomas]

Marvel planned everything in 2006 my ass !! They are just trying to boost themselves on the eyes of the audience even more and to downgrade any effort for a good comic book movie that is not Marvel Studios. More pressure to more indie studios and WB whek Kevin Feige said that. What a bunch of f-ing horse*** ! Like JMC super-correctly said WB is just movie studio, not a superhero movie one. They are doing their best. If DC had a studio purely for comic book movies i assure you things would be easier for them.

 

[jmc]

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say Marvel had things penciled in for Avengers at best. I honestly couldn't see them having anything remotely concrete before IM came out because if IM fails the plans would have been useless. Even then things changed, didn't Whedon more or less re-write Avengers and have to fix up CA?

 

[SpideyFan866]

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say Marvel had things penciled in for Avengers at best. I honestly couldn't see them having anything remotely concrete before IM came out because if IM fails the plans would have been useless. Even then things changed, didn't Whedon more or less re-write Avengers and have to fix up CA?

Whedon wrote Avengers himself. And he did some rewrites on CA and Thor, but only for continuity purposes.

As far as the MCU slate goes, they have had plans for what they wanted to do with it for a while.

Phase One was planned out entirely by time Iron Man came out, and the Phase 2 slate was cemented by time IM2 came out.

And according to Feige, they have, more or less, every thing planned out until 2021.

So basically Phase 3 and 4.

 

[Lencho01]

Wasn't Ant Man originally planned as a Phase 1 film, but got replaced with Iron Man 2?

 

[Herolee10]

Whedon wrote Avengers himself. And he did some rewrites on CA and Thor, but only for continuity purposes.

As far as the MCU slate goes, they have had plans for what they wanted to do with it for a while.

Phase One was planned out entirely by time Iron Man came out, and the Phase 2 slate was cemented by time IM2 came out.

And according to Feige, they have, more or less, every thing planned out until 2021.

So basically Phase 3 and 4.

i kind of have a hard time buying that on some level since I think it was made clear that they didn't know how they were going to connect the "Post credit" scene featuring RDJ in "The Incredible Hulk" until after they started working the story for "The Avengers".

Plus, I think the original intent was for the Hulk to be more of an antagonist than an "Avenger" as well.

Tbh, I don't think they had a solid idea of how they wanted Phase 1 to be like until they started working on IM 2.

 

[dark_b]

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say Marvel had things penciled in for Avengers at best. I honestly couldn't see them having anything remotely concrete before IM came out because if IM fails the plans would have been useless. Even then things changed, didn't Whedon more or less re-write Avengers and have to fix up CA?

i agree. Incredible Hulk underperforming is IMO proof.

now i am waiting for Fiege to say that they planned to cast Ruffalo in 2007. heheh t:

 

[dark_b]

Whedon wrote Avengers himself. And he did some rewrites on CA and Thor, but only for continuity purposes.

As far as the MCU slate goes, they have had plans for what they wanted to do with it for a while.

Phase One was planned out entirely by time Iron Man came out, and the Phase 2 slate was cemented by time IM2 came out.

And according to Feige, they have, more or less, every thing planned out until 2021.

So basically Phase 3 and 4.

if IM would underperform and if Thor would make IM money then Avengers would be a 100% different movie.

only one thing was planned in 2006. lets make seperate superhero movies and than lets make a team up movie called Avengers.

 

[Tempest]

Ok, so Marvel has a plan for its comic book movies. Are they planning to take on any other type of film? No? There goes that argument.

WB is not a comic book franchise. They've made a comic book film, and they plan to do a few more, but they have other films and other projects that are not remotely close to comic books.

Comparing WB to Marvel is like comparing Harley Davidson to Toyota. They cater to two different audiences; one is a specialty brand, while the other one is geared toward a more general audience.

Besides, we might like the films, but WB isn't obligated to make more of them, especially if all they're going to get is get shat on for every perceived misstep they make. They aren't going to waste time and money on an ungrateful audience. They DO want to make money -- that's their goal. And in case anyone is living in a fantasy world, Marvel is also into making money, so if you think they are making their movies out of the kindness of their hearts, think again.

 

[dark_b]

only Superman and Wonder Woman fans have the right to be very angry at WB. two characters that are insane popular for years.and they made tons of batman movies and a f... catwoman movie.

 

[slumcat]

You all need to stop *****ing about WB not giving you what you want. The only thing WB owe us are good superhero films. How many and what course they take are entirely up to them.

Nobody is giving WB **** in a fanboy rage or whatever you think it is. I watch superhero films and enjoy them but honestly the cinema that I truly love is a of a very different kind. Superhero films are a diversion at best for me.

Yet even if I am not a DC fanboy, I am student of business administration and mainly from that point of view, I think WB/DC have done an exceptionally poor job in making money from their properties. Marvel has literally taken second and third tier superheroes and made them global blockbusters.

I had not even heard of Iron Man before the film came out.

As I have stressed before, this is a financial discussion. And simply on that level, one company has absolutely crossed all boundaries of potential with thought on planning. Its foolhardy to think that Marvel just lucked out in their current state. A lot of contracts have to be signed, a lot of people have to be hired.

And another company has failed to capitalize on their arguably superior roster of characters.

 

[Doctor Jones]

This is a load off bull **** because WB has never been a superhero studio. Yes, they've had superhero properties at their disposal but they've also had bunch of other films and film franchises at their disposal. What, they were suppose to just concentrate on superheroes in a bid to suffocate anyone else? Don't get pissy at WB simply because they're 'playing catch-up', which frankly they're not, they're just doing what's in their best interest and doing it their way. Is it really so hard for people to understand that WB has never been and never will be a superhero studio? Honestly, it's as black and white as this - They are not Marvel Studios and they will never have a plan like Marvel Studios.

Where are you getting all of this? Take a deep breath and please read.

I understand all of this and if you carefully read my post, I never said nor implied they should "suffocate" their other films in favor for their comic properties. What kind of self respecting studio that's been around for as long as it has would it be if they suddenly were to favor their comic book films over their others? And I'm not getting "pissy." I'm questioning as to why a studio who has had these character for over 30 years have taken so long. And again, just because they aren't just a comic book studio like Marvel doesn't excuse them for their overall quality in managing these characters. Which has been pretty hit or miss. Mostly miss. They have the first two Donner films, the first Batman film, Nolan's trilogy and MOS as really the most successful comic book films they have put out. All the others, while I respect them for taking the risk, have either been unsuccessful, forgettable or bad.

Here's the reality: If they want to compete, which they clearly are by making a move with this film, it needs to be good, not just a business decision or a bad film to show for it. In WB's case, it's about finding the balance and putting out quality stuff.

I'm not saying they need to be Marvel studios to compete, I'm saying they have to plan things better. Their track record speaks for itself. And people ask why people are worried about this film. Sure you could say they're finally taking that next step, but there are legitimate concerns for this. Quality wise.

It wouldn't hurt if they had their own "brain trust" of comic book guys to look at these films. Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns. I'm just throwing some names out there.

 

[slumcat]

And I didn't know people had so much passionate love for WB. Where does that come from? TDK trilogy and Nolan love I am guessing.

I hope people realize that WB is a literally a bunch of billionaire suits sitting in a room.

To criticize a lack of business acumen is not to criticize the work itself. It doesn't seem clear to some in this thread that what is being criticized is their poor business sense and not their movies or comics or properties. It's a very obvious distinction but I had to make it explicit here since people don't seem to follow it.