All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion

[KRYPTON INC.]

But this is an archaic idea. No one is "purely female". The idealization of "female" creates problems.

Yes, as I stated elsewhere the goddesses and Hippolyta's idea to separate themselves from "Man's world" is bat-guano stupid/insane. So again, is it ironic or is it just the karmic nature of the universe in these sort of stories that the one exemplar of their "Gender Centric" culture is also the one to both send their ideals out into the world as well as show the Amazons that cutting themselves off has always been folly? Again... It's all Greek(myth) to me.

There are much older ways to look at what WW's origin means than the sort of post pagan Christian world view or even the Post Christian modernist take on philosophies. Just saying, I think the appeal of these characters is much more elemental than we usually reckon with. Or as Michael Uslan said:

"The Gods of the ancient world took off their robes and sandals and put on spandex and capes..."

And yes, I am aware of the irony of invoking all that Joe Campebell stuff and still being against the Zeus angle. t:

 

[Mad Love]

Yes, as I stated elsewhere the goddesses and Hippolyta's idea to separate themselves from "Man's world" is bat-guano stupid/insane. So again, is it ironic or is it just the karmic nature of the universe in these sort of stories that the one exemplar of their "Gender Centric" culture is also the one to both send their ideals out into the world as well as show the Amazons that cutting themselves off has always been folly? Again... It's all Greek(myth) to me.

There are much older ways to look at what WW's origin means than the sort of post pagan Christian world view or even the Post Christian modernist take on philosophies. Just saying, I think the appeal of these characters is much more elemental than we usually reckon with. Or as Michael Uslan said:

"The Gods of the ancient world took off their robes and sandals and put on spandex and capes..."

And yes, I am aware of the irony of invoking all that Joe Campebell stuff and still being against the Zeus angle. t:

Love Campbell. My concern is making a WW that has shared appeal. There will be a bunch of males who will be uncomfortable at the mere thought of asking to buy a movie ticket for "Wonder Woman". They aren't necessarily sexist but they might feel pressure from those that are.

That sort of discomfort could arise depending on how the movie portrays WW.

 

[Smallville13]

"The Gods of the ancient world took off their robes and sandals and put on spandex and capes..."

Or in WW's case, as everyone here wants it, put that ancient apparel back on.

In New 52, it seems like they are mortal. Three times a century they have sex raids to get pregnant by sailors. They keep the females and give the males to Hephaestus. In the latest issue, all the male Amazons came back to Paradise Island.

Could it be any more rape-y. I really don't get all the love for Azarello's WW. It's okay. Compared to so much of WW's serialization it's a revelation. But I think that's all it is. Just everyone so starved for a good WW book. Cliff Chiang's art is the only real highlight for me.

 

[Mad Love]

Could it be any more rape-y. I really don't get all the love for Azarello's WW. It's okay. Compared to so much of WW's serialization it's a revelation. But I think that's all it is. Just everyone so starved for a good WW book. Cliff Chiang's art is the only real highlight for me.

It certainly makes them morally complex. They are doing it out of necessity but a necessity caused by prejudice. Ancient morality is far different than today's.

I think Azzarello's run is more nuanced than it's credited.

 

[Smallville13]

It certainly makes them morally complex. They are doing it out of necessity but a necessity caused by prejudice. Ancient morality is far different than today's.

I think Azzarello's run is more nuanced than it's credited.

Is Azzarello just trolling with the puns in each issue?

'Hello'
'Hell low indeed'.

**** off Azarello. It's not nuanced. It's hack.

The next chapter is called 'The Beast of Times'.

 

[Mad Love]

Is Azzarello just trolling with the puns in each issue?

'Hello'
'Hell low indeed'.

**** off Azarello. It's not nuanced. It's hack.

The next chapter is called 'The Beast of Times'.

Some people like corny puns Tis fun.

 

[Mad Love]

This be cute.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Love Campbell. My concern is making a WW that has shared appeal. There will be a bunch of males who will be uncomfortable at the mere thought of asking to buy a movie ticket for "Wonder Woman". They aren't necessarily sexist but they might feel pressure from those that are.

That sort of discomfort could arise depending on how the movie portrays WW.

I think any who would feel uncomfortable with WW in any way wouldn't show up to see her on film or read her book no matter what the origin of her is. Those types MIGHT show up to ogle all the nice looking ladies involved in her stories, and... That's ok. Their money is just as green and they may find they actually like a strong but compassionate warrior Princess. Hell, there were plenty of guys that watched Xena and she got only half the combo right.

I think that to tailor the character itself to appeal to what one might think of as detractors is in the end not worth it to the extent of altering major points of them. (And I get your point about her origin being only one part of her. You're not wrong, but can you see my point of how her unique origin also has greater mythic power than being one of many Demi-gods out there?)

Now some might call me hypocritical since I loved MOS and people will scream bloody murder that they altered the hell out of him to appeal to the masses. I disagree. I think MOS was about altering the PRESENTATION of what is the essential story of Superman for the most part. He needed to be in a slam bang action drama to get the younger generation from 8 to 21 to actually give a damn about him and in the least find him to be "cool/badass". But for the most part I saw a character that was Superman at his essence, that actually didn't have much changed in his story.


I have to ask this of those that champion the New 52? How much influence do you believe this era will really have on any of the characters that have had big time make-overs in either history/continuity or in looks? My own feeling is simply, "this too shall pass." I've been a fan of this stuff going back to the age of two. (No... REALLY.) I'm 37 now. I've seen a ton of crap come and go but these heroes always seem to get reset back to a more "classic" style every time. The best it seems any one creator can do is scrub some rust off the characters. Which I guess is a round about way of saying change accrues to these super heroes very slowly and that big departures (Clark Kent TV reporter or WW as non powered Emma Peel espionage agent) never seem to last long. I think in less than 6 years time Superman will have his trunks back and lose the collar and Hippolyta will indeed have made Diana out of the clay of Paradise Isle, and the world will keep spinning. But that's me. Another way to put this is that while the idea of Damien Wayne or Terry Mcguiness has a strong appeal in some quarters of the fandom today, in the wider fan community (including those that use to be much more active consumers of this type of product and long time fans who are used to change, ect.) and the general audience that is more aware of the more "classic" takes on things there really isn't a great hunger to see them adapted to live action anytime soon. As time goes on, maybe that will change as those story elements become more well known outside of the fan world. But right now, most people don't view them as having anything to do with what is in their minds, a sort of Platonically ideal "Batman." No offense to any fans of those characters.

 

[AnneFan]

Imagine a scene of Batman meeting WonderGal for the first time. Perhaps he doesn't take her seriously, she is offended, or an argument breaks out. Either way she decks him. I have done an internet search and it has happened in a previous comic. She says "We will speak of this again, later. Go away. Now.” It could sell her worth to Batman quickly. A nice lady most of the time, but badass when needed.

Just an idea.

 

[Mad Love]

I think any who would feel uncomfortable with WW in any way wouldn't show up to see her on film or read her book no matter what the origin of her is. Those types MIGHT show up to ogle all the nice looking ladies involved in her stories, and... That's ok. Their money is just as green and they may find they actually like a strong but compassionate warrior Princess. Hell, there were plenty of guys that watched Xena and she got only half the combo right.

I think that to tailor the character itself to appeal to what one might think of as detractors is in the end not worth it to the extent of altering major points of them. (And I get your point about her origin being only one part of her. You're not wrong, but can you see my point of how her unique origin also has greater mythic power than being one of many Demi-gods out there?)

Now some might call me hypocritical since I loved MOS and people will scream bloody murder that they altered the hell out of him to appeal to the masses. I disagree. I think MOS was about altering the PRESENTATION of what is the essential story of Superman for the most part. He needed to be in a slam bang action drama to get the younger generation from 8 to 21 to actually give a damn about him and in the least find him to be "cool/badass". But for the most part I saw a character that was Superman at his essence, that actually didn't have much changed in his story.


I have to ask this of those that champion the New 52? How much influence do you believe this era will really have on any of the characters that have had big time make-overs in either history/continuity or in looks? My own feeling is simply, "this too shall pass." I've been a fan of this stuff going back to the age of two. (No... REALLY.) I'm 37 now. I've seen a ton of crap come and go but these heroes always seem to get reset back to a more "classic" style every time. The best it seems any one creator can do is scrub some rust off the characters. Which I guess is a round about way of saying change accrues to these super heroes very slowly and that big departures (Clark Kent TV reporter or WW as non powered Emma Peel espionage agent) never seem to last long. I think in less than 6 years time Superman will have his trunks back and lose the collar and Hippolyta will indeed have made Diana out of the clay of Paradise Isle, and the world will keep spinning. But that's me. Another way to put this is that while the idea of Damien Wayne or Terry Mcguiness has a strong appeal in some quarters of the fandom today, in the wider fan community (including those that use to be much more active consumers of this type of product and long time fans who are used to change, ect.) and the general audience that is more aware of the more "classic" takes on things there really isn't a great hunger to see them adapted to live action anytime soon. As time goes on, maybe that will change as those story elements become more well known outside of the fan world. But right now, most people don't view them as having anything to do with what is in their minds, a sort of Platonically ideal "Batman." No offense to any fans of those characters.

I get the sacred feminine and I admire that. There's a point where it becomes too exalted and irrelrevant to the modern audience.

I disagree that those who are uncomfortable won't see her movie. The movie could combat any stigma. After all, WW is all about changing hearts and minds. I've read several accounts from male and female readers about how New 52 WW is the first iteration that attracted them to follow WW. They were either interested in the character, had no interest, or only had a curiosity but they did not find the previously available material accessible. The same can be achieved by a WW movie if it addresses itself in a universal/non-alienating way.

MOS is inspired by Earth One Superman and Birthright. Affleck's Batman is inspired by TDKR. I can't agree with your belief that characters revert inevitably to classic. I think classic will become vintage and a new classic without trunks will take its place.

 

[Mad Love]

Imagine a scene of Batman meeting WonderGal for the first time. Perhaps he doesn't take her seriously, she is offended, or an argument breaks out. Either way she decks him. I have done an internet search and it has happened in a previous comic. She says "We will speak of this again, later. Go away. Now.” It could sell her worth to Batman quickly. A nice lady most of the time, but badass when needed.

Just an idea.

I'm a fan of Batman being taken down a notch. He gets treated as the cool one so I like when Superman or Wonder Woman tells him off. I need to remember to post a scan from Wagner's Trinity.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

See I know it seems on the surface that MOS was influenced by BIRTHRIGHT and EARTH ONE ect... But it felt more post Crisis to me, and in the making of/BTS stuff, Goyer and Snyder sure do talk about Byrne's MAN OF STEEL mini a lot. Just my own take.


As for the NU52 WW, attracting new fans. Good. She could always use more. I do believe that new fans often come on board when old continuity is thrown out more for the reason that they don't have decades worth of narrative to have to keep clear in their heads more so than some new take being THAT much more higher in quality or actual accessibility than what was being done before. Again, my take. And if you are happy with the Nu52, that's good. Just... Look at the full history of any of these characters. Or to paraphrase something from Sean Howe's book on Marvel Comics: Fans AND creators don't actually want change. They want the illusion of change. Believe me, you are going to be content and happy with this WW. She'll feel like an exciting but old friend. Then one day (sooner than you can imagine) editorial mandates will come down the pike, or some change in the market place will happen or some new regime will be in place at DCE and the particular WW you love will be no more. Don't think you are immune from that kind of heartbreak, cuz none of us fanboy/girls/gurls/bois cwink are. My two cents. I speak from experience as a Superman fan that would have been happy with the Byrne/Carlin/Jurgens era to last FOREVER.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm a fan of Batman being taken down a notch. He gets treated as the cool one so I like when Superman or Wonder Woman tells him off. I need to remember to post a scan from Wagner's Trinity.

Wagner's TRINITY is so good and it's treatment of how Bat's should interact with Diana and Supes is on point. From him wanting to have an Invisible Jet to Clark knowing exactly where he is at all times because he can hear everything rattling around in the utility belt... Great stuff.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

It depends what the change is.

For example, a lot of Iron Man fans prefer the more RDJ-like Stark.

(or rather a lot of GAs wouldn't be Iron Man fans if it wasn't for RDJ's specific version)

 

[Bullseye1]

Have to say loving this story.

 

[CountOrlok]

Love Campbell. My concern is making a WW that has shared appeal. There will be a bunch of males who will be uncomfortable at the mere thought of asking to buy a movie ticket for "Wonder Woman". They aren't necessarily sexist but they might feel pressure from those that are.

That sort of discomfort could arise depending on how the movie portrays WW.

May as well make WW a chick flick (like Supergirl or Tank Girl), since mainly females are going to see it. I'll still watch it (I'm not a chick), but I doubt it will capture the male audience.

 

[Smallville13]

The men not wanting to see female-led films is a pretty baseless studio-exec mentality. The Hunger Games. Debunked.

 

[Mad Love]

Agreed. Why would WW be a "chick flick"? It would be a superhero movie. For a movie title, they could go with The Amazon, The Amazing Amazon, The Amazon Princess, The Princess of Paradise...

 

[king666]

The men not wanting to see female-led films is a pretty baseless studio-exec mentality. The Hunger Games. Debunked.

yep

 

[anonomissx]

Agreed. Why would WW be a "chick flick"? It would be a superhero movie. For a movie title, they could go with The Amazon, The Amazing Amazon, The Amazon Princess, The Princess of Paradise...

Or howzabout "Wonder Woman: Dawn of Amazon" ghaah...t:

 

[Mad Love]

Diana of the Amazons :P

 

[Pickleweasel]

Hunger games are two movies though

 

[Mad Love]

Wonder Woman should lead the Justice League - source

"People always say it should be Batman. Guys, no. Do you know Batman? Yes, he’s good leading the Bat-clan, but they’re soldiers and he’s a general. They’ve been trained for years to obey him without question. Now try pulling that crap with Green Lantern or the Flash; outside the real-world consideration of “Batman’s comics sell good so people should listen to him,” any hero’s going to be thinking why am I listening to some jabroni dressed as a bat? What does he know about using a power ring, or the Speed Force? And you know Batman’s going to be a martinet. Can you see him inspiring someone, or employing empathy, encouraging people to come to them with their problems? No, it’d be his way or the highway. Yes, he’s a good tactician, but there’s a reason we had Patton lead the army and not the nation. Within a week of him being made leader, half your crew is going to leave because eff that guy for thinking he knows everything, I’m joining the JSA.

Superman, opposite problem. He’s always going to be your best friend; he can’t be ‘the boss’. He could never order someone to sacrifice themselves when he can do it himself. And he’d never make the hard call. Admirable, in some ways, but at the end of the day, sometimes you need someone to lay down on the wire and you can’t put literally your heaviest hitter on that. You need someone to be dispassionate.

Wonder Woman is the best of both worlds. She can listen to your concerns, sympathize with them, deal with them fairly and wisely. And, when need be, she can tell you to suck it up and follow orders cuz there’s a war on. After all, she’s been groomed for leadership on Paradise Island all her life; who knows how many times she’s led her fellow Amazons against escapees from Doom’s Doorway? Depending on the canon, she may have lifetimes of experience as a leader of men. So if she tells you that the only way to stop this invasion is for you personally to sacrifice yourself, you know she’s telling the truth and she wouldn’t be asking this of you if there were any other way. That’s who I’d want to follow into battle."

 

[king666]

Wonder Woman should lead the Justice League - source

"People always say it should be Batman. Guys, no. Do you know Batman? Yes, he’s good leading the Bat-clan, but they’re soldiers and he’s a general. They’ve been trained for years to obey him without question. Now try pulling that crap with Green Lantern or the Flash; outside the real-world consideration of “Batman’s comics sell good so people should listen to him,” any hero’s going to be thinking why am I listening to some jabroni dressed as a bat? What does he know about using a power ring, or the Speed Force? And you know Batman’s going to be a martinet. Can you see him inspiring someone, or employing empathy, encouraging people to come to them with their problems? No, it’d be his way or the highway. Yes, he’s a good tactician, but there’s a reason we had Patton lead the army and not the nation. Within a week of him being made leader, half your crew is going to leave because eff that guy for thinking he knows everything, I’m joining the JSA.

Superman, opposite problem. He’s always going to be your best friend; he can’t be ‘the boss’. He could never order someone to sacrifice themselves when he can do it himself. And he’d never make the hard call. Admirable, in some ways, but at the end of the day, sometimes you need someone to lay down on the wire and you can’t put literally your heaviest hitter on that. You need someone to be dispassionate.

Wonder Woman is the best of both worlds. She can listen to your concerns, sympathize with them, deal with them fairly and wisely. And, when need be, she can tell you to suck it up and follow orders cuz there’s a war on. After all, she’s been groomed for leadership on Paradise Island all her life; who knows how many times she’s led her fellow Amazons against escapees from Doom’s Doorway? Depending on the canon, she may have lifetimes of experience as a leader of men. So if she tells you that the only way to stop this invasion is for you personally to sacrifice yourself, you know she’s telling the truth and she wouldn’t be asking this of you if there were any other way. That’s who I’d want to follow into battle."

That would be awesome!

 

[smallville fan]

Wonder Woman should lead the Justice League - source

"People always say it should be Batman. Guys, no. Do you know Batman? Yes, he’s good leading the Bat-clan, but they’re soldiers and he’s a general. They’ve been trained for years to obey him without question. Now try pulling that crap with Green Lantern or the Flash; outside the real-world consideration of “Batman’s comics sell good so people should listen to him,” any hero’s going to be thinking why am I listening to some jabroni dressed as a bat? What does he know about using a power ring, or the Speed Force? And you know Batman’s going to be a martinet. Can you see him inspiring someone, or employing empathy, encouraging people to come to them with their problems? No, it’d be his way or the highway. Yes, he’s a good tactician, but there’s a reason we had Patton lead the army and not the nation. Within a week of him being made leader, half your crew is going to leave because eff that guy for thinking he knows everything, I’m joining the JSA.

Superman, opposite problem. He’s always going to be your best friend; he can’t be ‘the boss’. He could never order someone to sacrifice themselves when he can do it himself. And he’d never make the hard call. Admirable, in some ways, but at the end of the day, sometimes you need someone to lay down on the wire and you can’t put literally your heaviest hitter on that. You need someone to be dispassionate.

Wonder Woman is the best of both worlds. She can listen to your concerns, sympathize with them, deal with them fairly and wisely. And, when need be, she can tell you to suck it up and follow orders cuz there’s a war on. After all, she’s been groomed for leadership on Paradise Island all her life; who knows how many times she’s led her fellow Amazons against escapees from Doom’s Doorway? Depending on the canon, she may have lifetimes of experience as a leader of men. So if she tells you that the only way to stop this invasion is for you personally to sacrifice yourself, you know she’s telling the truth and she wouldn’t be asking this of you if there were any other way. That’s who I’d want to follow into battle."

Regarding this person's points about why not Superman, I take it they have never watched an episode of Timm's Justice League? Especially the first episode of JLU with Superman's speech about being a hero in the JL? As for making the tough call, Man of Steel says sup.