All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion

[anonomissx]

So after a conversation in the costume thread, it was pointed out that her costume could represent the banner of Themyscira instead of the American flag.

Here's an idea for Themyscira's flag:

Red = outside world
Yellow = divine protection from the gods
Blue = the ocean
White Stars = the main island of Themyscira and tiny surrounding islands.

You rock!

 

[Boy Scout]

 

[haephestus]

@ fanboii - The photoshopped (?) Themysciran flag is awesome! As others have said, now that I've seen it done, I'll be disappointed if it isn't used in any Themysciran set scenes in DoJ, or JL or whatever follows.

 

[Mad Love]

The two are not interconnected. Stories have been told for eons, characters introduced, without origins. It's simply a component, but by no means essential. Are you under the impression Wonder Woman cannot be properly developed for new audiences unless her beginnings are explicitly presented chronologically?

Speaking about stories generically is irrelevant. We're talking about superhero movies here. Traditionally, every debut of a superhero character has been an origin movie because it is the most efficient way to introduce the character and the world in which their supporting cast exists. Also, the source material is there. It's how they get audiences to care about characters enough to build a franchise.

What was a franchise that didn't begin with an origin?

No, Batman Begins was. It's precisely why Nolan was adamant and confident about making it, because Bruce's beginnings were never explored.

How was Batman 89 not an origin movie when it showed both the origin of Batman and Joker?

Batman Begins was an elaborate origin because it had more source material to draw upon. Year One came out while Batman 89 was in production. Therefore, Batman 89 was an origin movie of its time.

 

[Mad Love]

Wonder Woman doesn't need an entire movie devoted to her origin. Hit the ground running and fill in the details with flashbacks, etc.

Hit the ground running from where? In America, fighting bad guys? There would be so many questions that it's only practical to go over all of it with an origin movie.

Fans are going by what they already know instead of considering what the GA needs. Why does she have that costume, why does she have a lasso, why does she have cuffs, what is she a princess of, where did she come from.

You can't just have Wonder Woman appear and give off the impression that she's an important character only to never go into who she is.

She shouldn't be treated like Hawkeye or Black Widow.

 

[113]

Yeah if anyone deserves/needs a solo film its' Diana. It's way past time for that.

 

[SofNascimento]

Azzarello story might be just too good for a blockbuster.

If they want this film to get a lot of money a simpler origin story that draws heavily from this latest Wondie story might be the best way to go.

 

[Mad Love]

Azzarello story might be just too good for a blockbuster.

If they want this film to get a lot of money a simpler origin story that draws heavily from this latest Wondie story might be the best way to go.

The problem with that is Azzarello played off of her pre-existing origins in the comics, but there's certainly a way they can change it around to be more of a stand-alone story.

 

[BatFan1979]

So after a conversation in the costume thread, it was pointed out that her costume could represent the banner of Themyscira instead of the American flag.

Here's an idea for Themyscira's flag:

Red = outside world
Yellow = divine protection from the gods
Blue = the ocean
White Stars = the main island of Themyscira and tiny surrounding islands.

That really is a stroke of genius! Completely makes sense. It helps explain the stars and colors of WW costume - perfect!

 

[Jekecy]

Speaking about stories generically is irrelevant. We're talking about superhero movies here. Traditionally, every debut of a superhero character has been an origin movie because it is the most efficient what to introduce the character and the world in which their supporting cast exists. Also, the source material is there. It's how they get audiences to care about characters enough to build a franchise.

What was a franchise that didn't begin with an origin?

We just had a comic book film from such a franchise. Last month. Did we forget X-Men started out with a film where the team had already assembled and have an established history? And the man who would go on to become the lead didn't so much as even have a backstory associated with him? X-Men just released its seventh film of the saga, crowned as its best yet.

But forget that, let's look at the longest running franchise in cinematic history; James Bond. Need we pull up its box office numbers? Or shall we take a guess as to how long it took before Bond actually got an origin movie?

And off the top of my head, here are other franchise movies that didn't start with origins:

Saw
Bourne
Indiana Jones
Sherlock Holmes
Hunger Games
Toy Story
Star Trek (original)
Mission: Impossible
Transformers
Avatar (soon to be franchise)
Shrek
Pirate of the Caribbean

Frankly it could go on and on. Contrary to what fanboys think as a result of the superhero surge, origins are a novelty. They're not the be-all, end-all means of introducing lovable characters or stories. As evidenced by the several decades it has existed without them.

How was Batman 89 not an origin movie when it showed both the origin of Batman and Joker?

Batman Begins was an elaborate origin because it had more source material to draw upon. Year One came out while Batman 89 was in production. Therefore, Batman 89 was an origin movie of its time.

An origin movie has to feature the actual beginnings as the main narrative. That was simply not the case with B89. The very first scene lets us know Batman exists and has been at it long enough to develop a reputation.

The little we see of Bruce's past only give a mere glimpse of how he came to be. It was not unlike how Batman Forever used the flashbacks to inform Bruce's current state of mind. A core component of the superhero origin is to transform or develop the protagonist from an ordinary individual into something grandeur. Bruce does not have this arc in Burton's film.

 

[SofNascimento]

To be fair, the flag from Themyscira looks like a Dragon Ball...

 

[DA_Champion]

We just had a comic book film from such a franchise. Last month. Did we forget X-Men started out with a film where the team had already assembled and have an established history? And the man who would go on to become the lead didn't so much as even have a backstory associated with him? X-Men just released its seventh film of the saga, crowned as its best yet.

But forget that, let's look at the longest running franchise in cinematic history; James Bond. Need we pull up its box office numbers? Or shall we take a guess as to how long it took before Bond actually got an origin movie?

And off the top of my head, here are other franchise movies that didn't start with origins:

Saw
Bourne
Indiana Jones
Sherlock Holmes
Hunger Games
Toy Story
Star Trek (original)
Mission: Impossible
Transformers
Avatar (soon to be franchise)
Shrek
Pirate of the Caribbean

Frankly it could go on and on. Contrary to what fanboys think as a result of the superhero surge, origins are a novelty. They're not the be-all, end-all means of introducing lovable characters or stories. As evidenced by the several decades it has existed without them.


An origin movie has to feature the actual beginnings as the main narrative. That was simply not the case with B89. The very first scene lets us know Batman exists and has been at it long enough to develop a reputation.

The little we see of Bruce's past only give a mere glimpse of how he came to be. It was not unlike how Batman Forever used the flashbacks to inform Bruce's current state of mind. A core component of the superhero origin is to transform or develop the protagonist from an ordinary individual into something grandeur. Bruce does not have this arc in Burton's film.

How did Hunger Games not start with an origin?

"I volunteer !!!!"

There's your origin.

 

[BatFan1979]

To be fair, the flag from Themyscira looks like a Dragon Ball...

From what I could find (yes, I had to google Dragon Ball - too old to be a fan of that show) I can see a vague resemblance, but Dragon Balls look all yellow with red stars - the flag design elements are totally different colors. I don't see them getting mistaken for each other.

 

[Loki882]

Here's the difference between Batman (and Superman) and WW. Everyone an their grandmother knows at least the basics of Batman's origin. The same is true for Superman. However, WW is a different story. Her origins are not so well-known. She's closer to someone like Iron Man in that regard, and he got an entire movie devoted to his origins. Plus, her origins are different enough from other superheroes to be interesting in their own right.

 

[BatFan1979]

Here's the difference between Batman (and Superman) and WW. Everyone an their grandmother knows at least the basics of Batman's origin. The same is true for Superman. However, WW is a different story. Her origins are not so well-known. She's closer to someone like Iron Man in that regard, and he got an entire movie devoted to his origins. Plus, her origins are different enough from other superheroes to be interesting in their own right.

I agree! Many people just don't really know much about her. I'd like to see her solo film at least be half origin and half present day problem. I mean, it may be hard to have a pure origin story after we've already met her in BvS.

 

[Jekecy]

How did Hunger Games not start with an origin?

"I volunteer !!!!"

There's your origin.

Because it's not really much of an origin. Unless you consider how she entered the competition as its own headlining narrative.

Here's the difference between Batman (and Superman) and WW. Everyone an their grandmother knows at least the basics of Batman's origin. The same is true for Superman. However, WW is a different story. Her origins are not so well-known.

As I asked earlier, how does this relate to why she must have an origin film, though? I've not gotten a clear cut answer to that other than the implication "it just has to". How can the likes of James Bond just hit the ground running and become a billion dollar commodity, but Diana who has had the advantage of pop culture presence for several decades, has to be coddled to us?

Plus, her origins are different enough from other superheroes to be interesting in their own right.

It's a cool backstory, but enough to dominate at least half a film? I'm not confident on that, nor would I want it.

 

[Loki882]

They made an ENTIRE movie based around Batman's origins, and it is widely considered to be one of the greatest superhero movies of all time. They did an entire movie based around Iron Man's origins, and it's also considered to be one of the greatest CBM's of all time. The granddaddy of all superhero movies, Richard Donner's Superman, was ALSO an origins story, same deal. Just because something is an origin movie doesn't mean that it cannot be a good (or even great) film in it's own right. Especially with a backstory as cool as WW's.

 

[Mad Love]

To be fair, the flag from Themyscira looks like a Dragon Ball...

lol yeah, coincidences happen.

 

[Jekecy]

They made an ENTIRE movie based around Batman's origins, and it is widely considered to be one of the greatest superhero movies of all time. They did an entire movie based around Iron Man's origins, and it's also considered to be one of the greatest CBM's of all time. The granddaddy of all superhero movies, Richard Donner's Superman, was ALSO an origins story, same deal. Just because something is an origin movie doesn't mean that it cannot be a good (or even great) film in it's own right. Especially with a backstory as cool as WW's.

Where is this phantom post that said any of that? It was a simple inquiry as to why people were so adamant an origin story had to be told first.

We're not simpletons that need to start at year zero for everything. I just find it strange the comic book genre is the only genre people are insistent on origins. History in every medium of storytelling have concretely proven it doesn't have to be that way. I'd honestly go as far to say origin movies tend to fall apart because act three almost always turns out to be a different story than the prior two acts. And it seems contrived when viewed as a whole.

 

[Mad Love]

An origin movie has to feature the actual beginnings as the main narrative.

Once you pinpoint the beginnings of what, then you'll see how most of the movies you mentioned did start off with origin movies.

X-Men started off with the origin of Magneto (wasn't it the first scene?) and they explained the advent of mutants. The movies have revolved around Magneto and Xavier's relationship.

Anyway, superhero movies are different because they're about the characters rather than a premise.

 

[Jekecy]

Then most of the movies you mentioned did start off with origin movies.

X-Men started off with the origin of Magneto (wasn't it the first scene?) and they explained the advent of mutants. The movies have revolved around Magneto and Xavier's relationship.

Not sure how you can misinterpret "main narrative" with "opening scenes". Are you really going to make that argument, especially with my list?

I'd be curious to see how you could explain that.

Anyway, superhero movies are different because they're about the characters rather than a premise.

That's quite a slippery slope this discussion would take. Needless to say I don't at all agree with that notion.

 

[Mad Love]

Hunger Games <- origin of Katniss entering Hunger Games. Hunger Games explained.
Toy Story <- origin of Buzz Lightyear
Transformers <- origin of Autobots arrival on Earth
Avatar <- origin of Avatars
Pirate of the Caribbean <- origin of Will and Elizabeth meeting Jack Sparrow

 

[Jekecy]

Hunger Games <- origin of Katniss entering Hunger Games. Hunger Games explained.
Toy Story <- origin of Buzz Lightyear
Transformers <- origin of Autobots arrival on Earth
Avatar <- origin of Avatars
Pirate of the Caribbean <- origin of Will and Elizabeth meeting Jack Sparrow

Main. Narrative.

The story.

The summary you give to someone who asks what a film is about. Do any of your answers satisfy that?

I'm finding it hard to believe you're not grasping such a simple premise.

 

[Mad Love]

Main. Narrative.

The story.

The summary you give to someone who asks what a film is about. Do any of your answers satisfy that?

I'm finding it hard to believe you're not grasping such a simple premise.

You're confusing what the subject of a franchise is; therefore, you're misidentifying its origin. You can always keep going back in time and say its the origin of one thing or another.

i.e.

The Hunger Games isn't about Katniss or the Hunger Games independently. It's about the effect of Katniss on the Hunger Games. The origin wouldn't be about the birth of Katniss or the creation of the Hunger Games. The origin is Katniss entering the Hunger Games.

 

[haephestus]

Re: Origin film for Wonder Woman's solo movie

Personally, I sure hope not. At least not a traditional origin film. Wonder Woman would have already appeared in BvS: DoJ and Justice League by that point. Wonder Woman's character would have already been established and the basics of her origin developed to the extent possible.

That typed, I would prefer to see Wonder Woman's solo film rooted firmly in her mythology to expand her character as a whole, not just her "origin". A movie where Wonder Woman is almost solely based on Themyscira and dealing with threats from her own mythology (e.g. Greek gods or monsters) would be my preference. They could touch upon any elements of her origin which haven't already been established at that point in time or as required to serve the purposes of the story (e.g. if Ares training Diana as a child were somehow relevant to the plot, then it could be raised).