Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by MAKAVELI25, Nov 6, 2012.

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  1. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    Definitely cool to think about. Batman had to retire because The Joker assured him "you and I are destined to do this forever." Still can't quite rescind the bullet point cuz I can't help but feel Ledger's Joker was supposed to be the judge in TDKR. In other words, i just feel like with the Joker somewhere still alive in the background that A. Batman could NEVER retire and B. No other villain (even Bane or Talia) could outdo him. And one way to have perfected that was by handholding us into knowing Bane was more powerful than Joker.

    I could go on about this for a while, but I'm probably just talking to myself :p
     
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  2. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    done and done.
     
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  3. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Of course there could have been a ton of reasons for Bruce to pop in the Batcave, trying to see if something bad is going down in Gotham for Batman to be needed, but that doesn't take away that Batman could have very well stuck around for at least six more months or maybe another whole year until the Dent Act was established and put into law.

    But we already know Bruce can't move on. That's a part of TDKR that they focused on, Bruce never being able to move on. But that doesn't mean Bruce had to visit the Batcave to do so.

    And I brought up the idea that the low-life thugs Dent put away in TDK could have been accounted for as well under the new Dent Act once it's established, so Blake could have just counted up once these criminals were sent to prison or what have you which would still be eight years.

    Good point, but I just don't see the ending of TDK as the ending of Batman. Just too many things, imo, point to Bruce still being Batman for a while.
     
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  4. BatmanBeyond

    BatmanBeyond Shadow On The Run

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    I liked Stewart as Barsad too and thought it was cool how in awe with Bane he seemed to be. I still found it funny how his middle-easternish accent from the prologue slipped into a more American/British one during that bridge scene with that soldier from the government forces though.
     
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  5. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Why bother indeed. I understand the film perfectly fine. I just don't understand what your talking about because I haven't read your posts. But more to the point, like you said, we all have our own views of the film. So there really isn't any point in trying to bother to convince me otherwise, as I have no intention of trying to change your mind. To each their own.
     
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  6. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Could have but didn't for several reasons;

    1. The movie says Batman's not been sighted since the night Dent died
    2. Nolan said the 8 year gap was representative of Batman's retirement
    3. Nolan says on the special features of the blu ray that the injury he sustained that requires a cane is from the fall he had with Dent at the end of TDK. Can you see Batman being active in crime fighting with an injury like that? You see him limping away at the end of TDK when the Cops are chasing him. Clearly the injury just deteriorated over the 8 years.

    I'm not saying it does. I'm saying that's one of several possible and more likely reasons. This is all conjecture on my behalf.

    You brought up the idea. No offense, but that's all it is, an idea. Whereas we have direct quotes from the movie and the director substantiating Batman's retirement for 8 years and the Dent Act keeping men locked up for 8 years.

    It doesn't add up in the face of what we're told.

    Trust me, Anno, I would have LOVED if Batman did not throw in the towel at the end of TDK, because the last thing I was thinking when I saw TDK's ending was Batman was riding off on the Bat-Pod for retirement after just being christened a Dark Knight. You'll recall I am a big critic of that.

    But I have to concede that isn't how it played given everything we're told. Both in the movie and by the movie makers.
     
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  7. MAKAVELI25

    MAKAVELI25 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I definitely like the idea of Batman fighting on for a few more months, there's obviously more proof in the movie of him retiring the night Dent died than the opposite. How anyone can deny this is ludicrous
     
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  8. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    IMO the reason this is being debated and the reason the movie (and Nolan himself, actually) does not cleanly state "Batman has been retired since the night Dent died" is to streamline the story for the audience and not present too convoluted a backstory, without infringing upon the imaginations of people who'd like to believe Batman might have stayed quietly active for a short period after.

    A line like "the last confirmed sighting" remains ambiguous to me in nature.
     
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  9. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    1.) So 'confirmed sighting' means firmly that Batman was never in Gotham City ever since the night of Dent's murder? Batman could have never continued to protect the city as much as he can in the shadows knowing that the police will be on his tail if he's ever sighted by the police? And if you ask what's so wrong with having the police chasing him as it happened in BB, then I will bring up the fact that it's something unnecessary. Batman doesn't need a huge police chase, especially since the police didn't even care about Bane while they chased Batman.

    2.) Nolan made the generalization of the eight years having passed TDK's events. Nothing true about Bruce actually being retired for a total of eight years.

    3.) The injury could have definitely deteriorated over the eight years, but I never said Batman stayed around for eight years. Bruce could have stayed as Batman until he couldn't take the injury anymore. My dad has had a similar injury that only got worse through years, but he only recently retired and signed up for disability like two years ago and before that, continued to work at a hardware store.

    You make it seem like you have justifiable proof that Bruce just left the cape and cowl after Dent died, but nothing really proves such until someone speaks to Christopher Nolan and asks him for sure.

    Definitely the best possible reason to you, but I don't see it as a reason when he has everything he has, for nostalgia sake, in his mansion.

    No offense taken as I already said it's an idea, lol.

    But, I've already said my point of view countless of times on both of those mentions regarding the eight years. Two hard-headed posters really get nowhere, huh? Lol.

    And I disagree; I believe Batman didn't just give up, but once again, to each their own. And I suppose that's why I can handle certain parts of TDKR because I view it differently than the people who seem to not enjoy TDKR so much.

    I'd rather be...

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Which is probably Nolans way of not getting pinned down or alienating segments of fan boys. It's kinda why I was saying this film causes so much debate as there are lot of things unclear. My opinion is he retired after dents death. I don't like it, but that's the way they laid it out. If not, I just need to hear one line of dialogue from anyone saying batman was out and about.
     
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  11. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!
     
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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  12. Anita18

    Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Doesn't Daggett say, "8 years, and he has to pick tonight?" That says to me that he really was gone for 8 years, or at the very least, hasn't done a big job like the stock exchange for that long.
     
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  13. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    I think though you have to look at the implication of that line. Could batman still have been out there? Sure. Could he have also battled the joker again and could dent still be alive. Why not? The whole point of Blake saying that, if we are to believe Nolan isn't a hack, is to let the audience know batman had quit that night. Otherwise, why not just say hardly anyone or very few have seen him.
     
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  14. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    :facepalm:

    That right there just gives me a reason to ignore what you have to say.
     
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  15. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    There's always one :cwink:

    Absolutely. Unless you have some practical alternative suggestions about what a limping leg Batman would be doing out in Gotham after that night?

    If your response is catching criminals, then that would be a confirmed sighting, since those captured criminals could substantiate Batman was still around.

    How does he protect Gotham from the shadows?

    I wasn't going to bring that up, but since you have I'll gladly use that since Bruce was not bothered by being chased after either of these chases with the Police.

    You're putting words in Nolan's mouth by saying he made a generalization. How can it be a generalization when he says the 8 years is the retirement period? He hung up the cape and cowl.

    It's spelled out simply. No generalization. No double meaning.

    What kind of idiot tries to fight crime with a handicap like a limp?

    You're just conjecturing again, and your what if scenario sounds so ludicrous. Batman going around the rooftops and taking on criminals with a limp.

    Ridiculous scenario I cannot even possible envision of Nolan's Batman.

    No offense, but working in a hardware store, and running around rooftops and fighting criminals is a bit more physically stressful on a man than working in a hardware store.

    It doesn't take years of ninja training to do that.

    Someone already has. There's his quote.

    Why you think he's generalizing is beyond me, except I suspect it's just an attempt to make your argument have some validity to it.

    What Batman memorabilia does he have in Wayne Manor?

    Maybe, but it would help if one particular hard headed poster could back up his theories with something a bit more concrete like I have :cwink:
     
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  16. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Anno, you think everything I post is directed at you..lol. I hope you do ignore my posts..it's what ive wanted all along.lol
     
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  17. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Exactly. Daggett is just another character who says the obvious.
     
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  18. MAKAVELI25

    MAKAVELI25 Well-Known Member

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    Re-quoted for emphasis
     
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  19. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    You're in for a long wait for that one :cwink:

    Exactly. That way it lets us know Batman did not throw in the towel directly after that night. But we didn't get that. We did get many lines that outright say it's been 8 years since anyone has seen Batman in Gotham.

    No getting around that. Everything else is just baseless conjecturing.
     
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  20. TheBat812

    TheBat812 Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to say that given that special features explanation about Bruce's injury from Nolan (which I hadn't heard, but is a big piece of info regarding this) as well as the few lines from the movie do indicate that Bruce put the cowl away after that night. It's a very fitting idea for Nolan. This is what Nolan most probably intended, although I think he purposefully did not include too much proof of that in the film to allow that ambiguity for the fans.
     
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  21. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    The point of the line is to show that to Gotham at large, Batman has been gone for 8 years and that he has become a mysterious legend to them. It doesn't really effect Bruce Wayne's journey one way or another if he's been gone a full 8 years or 7 years a 9 months, etc. The end result for him is still the same...he's stopped being Batman for a very long time, long enough for him to be older and rusty.

    I think Nolan understands that it's not natural for the audience to assume that Batman was going to retire based on the end of TDK, so he gave himself a few tiny openings for people to fill in some of the story for themselves. This is 8 years of the main character's life we're talking about, there should be some room for nuance.

    Well, definitely not. I don't think anyone's trying to argue that Batman has pulled anything huge since TDK, only that he's a man capable of operating from the shadows and might have done just that if he felt he needed to in the time leading up to the passing of the Dent Act.


    I agree. I think in Nolan's mind, it's 8 years, but I thought he handled it delicately.
     
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  22. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Which begs the question why one or two are so adamant to believe this. What is a one or two month difference going to make?
     
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  23. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing that. Hopefully that puts it to rest. Its a crazy discussion anyways. Even if he continued to be Batman for 2 more months, but in that time, did nothing note worthy....who cares then? Just so that our imaginations or our expectations aren't let down? In Nolan's world, this Batman quits/moves on anyways, so whats the difference.
     
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  24. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Imo, that.

    Yep, I'm apparently that "one".

    Captured criminals exclaiming that they saw Batman is still not a confirmed sighting since the police didn't see him. The only reason why Blake said a confirmed sighting since that's the last time the police saw him.

    "I Am The Night".

    So Batman never protects in the shadows?

    Wasn't bothered? Really? Bruce told Alfred that the police were not doing their job, and they weren't. Why be bothered by nuisances when you can avoid it?

    Lol, if you say so. I mean, that's all I can say really. You're not changing my mind and I'm not changing yours.

    The injury, you said, got worse through those eight years. No way could Bruce have a limp from the beginning but yet it supposedly gets worse in the eight years? If he had the limp already, how did it get worse as you say? That doesn't make any sense. To say he had a limp from the beginning contradicts you saying the injury became worse when that's all it is eight years after, a limp.

    :funny:

    No offense taken since you're taking working at a hardware store so lightly it seems.

    And his quote says nothing to make me think otherwise than what I am now.

    And I'm not the only one that feels the same way that Nolan didn't make a clear-cut statement of Bruce having retired for a total of eight years.

    What Batman memorabilia does he have in the cave besides just a suit? That's not a reason, as I said, for him to go in the Batcave to just stare.

    I could say the same :cwink:

    Cool story :up:

    :up:
     
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  25. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Way too much of this goes on and for those that do there is no convincing. Lots of people used to argue that Dent was alive, although it never said in TDK that he died, the script stated that he had broken his neck. So what did people suppose? Oh, Dent died but Two Face lived. Of course he did. Until a shovel to the face like TDKR hits and proves that he did die.....or did he???
     
    #575
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