Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by MAKAVELI25, Nov 6, 2012.

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  1. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    I liked the idea of what they were going for, but execution-wise it all felt like it was trying too hard to wrap things up, too tidily. And in the process ended up feeling rather truncated and overstuffed. It was almost as if it was made more out of obligation than inspiration, if you will.

    As we discussed before, TDKR didn't fall victim to the third-movie 'curse' like so many others do...but it still couldn't quite overcome all of the pitfalls that any third movie would encounter. Although it did still do considerably better than most. Yes, BB and TDK set the bar very high for its own third movie, but I still believe that TDKR fell short on several levels that were independent of internally-built expectations....things that I'd find disappointing in any movie about anyone. But really it's ultimately only that, and not sickeningly bad like so many other third installments can so easily be...and that in and of itself is an admirable achievement.
     
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  2. JDonaldD

    JDonaldD Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think there's enough in the movie to suggest Bane really hated the structure of Gotham. He could have done anything in the 5 months leading up to the detonation, he chose the revolution. What I think is interesting is that if the bomb were to go off, to the outside world it would look like a Gothamite blew the city up and failed the test. It would not only destroy most of Gotham but would be pretty soul crushing to the rest of the country. Imagine if this happened in NY and everyone else thought some random citizen pushed the button. It's similar to Joker's test at the end of TDK but Bane insured that the people would fail.
     
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  3. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    I respect your opinion KalMart, and I think you have a very level-headed and unbiased assessment of the film. As I said, a lot of my reaction to it is emotional and visceral, which is hard for me to discount because I think that is largely what the film was aiming for. It did play into a lot of the conventional trappings of "the third movie", but for me, a lot of these elements were more enjoyable than they might otherwise have been in the hands of Nolan. I do think you're right that he tried extra hard to make it clear that this was a definitive ending, because of the ongoing nature of Batman in general and the natural expectation for there to always be a sequel. At the same time, I enjoyed that this was the first cinematic Batman universe where the events of each film carry real weight into the subsequent films, rather than everything being in some kind of vague continuity like the previous franchise.

    It's biggest flaw is being overly ambitious, and I say this about a lot of overly ambitious films- that's my favorite flaw for a movie to have. I'd rather a movie of this scale be so large and ambitious that it leaves me wanting a little more, rather than be left with the feeling that the filmmakers didn't challenge themselves or the audience enough. And to be honest, both Batman Begins and TDK had that super tight, packed to the brim, almost montage-esque feel to them in places, that I felt like I was prepared for TDKR to go there when it sought out to encompass such a large canvas. Nolan talks a lot about films like Blade Runner and Star Wars that create an entire world that's off the screen and for me, TDKR really did that.


    That's precisely my take on it. Bane and the LOS had 5 months to do whatever the heck they wanted to Gotham. There were other ways they could have tortured Bruce and brought chaos to the city, but they specifically chose a class revolution. To say that they put no consideration into how this would look to the rest of the country and the world undermines the deviousness and evil of their plan, and also neglects the way Ra's wanted the rest of the world to watch Gotham destroy itself in Begins.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  4. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member

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    I don't own the DVD yet, but I've been watching clips on YouTube, and I'm thinking maybe the movie isn't quite as bad as I originally thought.

    I still stand by my criticisms of the film, but I'm starting to like it a little bit more now. Originally I gave it a 5/10, now I'm thinking it deserves a 6.5/10 or 7/10.
     
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  5. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    Honestly, I don't really 'blame' the movie a whole lot, and I'm probably a lot more forgiving than I may sound. If anything, it's a good example that things naturally run their course in many films...especially when the narratives for installments entail history/life-changing storylines. And certainly, I would never say that someone is better off not wasting the 2:45 to watch the movie as I would say for others....it's definitely worth a watch. But a certain 'magic' did wear off by the third movie, and that was disappointing, even though not a deal killer.
     
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  6. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Fair enough sir. I can definitely say, being a huge fan of Nolan and all three of his Batman movies, that I walked out of TDKR knowing that I've now had my fill with the franchise and I think this definitely pushed things to the limit where it's basically exhausted itself and I would agree that "the magic" peaked with TDK, for so many reasons. It's best for this to live on in our memories now, rather than get milked to the bone.
     
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  7. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    And for that, I'm VERY thankful that they decided to make the story an ending. :up:
     
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  8. BatmanBeyond

    BatmanBeyond Shadow On The Run

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    Indeed, well said. :up:

    It was all about showing Bruce he was wrong about the people of Gotham: 'Torture?', 'Yes, but not of your body, of your soul.'
     
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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  9. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Great post and I agree. I'm still somewhere with a 6.5 rating on this film. The parts I liked I still like and the parts I don't, I still don't. Blu ray unfortunately hasn't changed my mind.
     
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  10. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    I actually felt that Insomnia was his worst, with this being second to that...but still not a 'bad' movie, per se, and a distant second at that.
     
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  11. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Everything Under the Sun

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    Just out of curiosity, how many times have you seen Insomnia?

    I ask because the first time I saw it I had a very "meh" reaction, but I've seen it a couple of more times since then and found myself liking it more and more each time.
     
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  12. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    I actually saw it twice...once in theaters, then rented it to see if I had somehow misunderstood or what have you...but no, it felt worse the second time.
     
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  13. Legion

    Legion Well-Known Member

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    Tdkr > tdk > bb
     
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  14. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Everything Under the Sun

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    It's a very... odd film. It's unlike any crime film I can recall seeing while at the same time having some very typical tropes, like the "boyfriend" character at the school. While the story certainly drags at times, I think the performances and the dynamics between all of the characters make it a damn good film. But I certainly can't understand why some don't really like it, and I admit, it's definitely my least favorite Nolan film.

    But I'd love to see him work with Robin Williams or Al Pacino again. Williams is terrific throughout and Nolan got one of the best performances out of Pacnio I've seen in years. It's very refreshing to see a modern Pacino film where he doesn't chew up the scenery at every turn :woot:
     
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  15. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    I feel kind of bad for Robin Williams...the guy had been wanting to be a villain in a Batman movie since 1989, and would have been eager to work with Nolan again. Even said he'd play an Arkham inmate just to get a piece of the action in this Nolan trilogy. Just didn't pan out for the guy.

    Those Hugo Strange rumors feel so long ago now...
     
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  16. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    Maybe he can play King Tutt in the next version.
     
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  17. Alex Logan

    Alex Logan Yes, Mr. Smith.

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    Thanks.

    Agreed.
     
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  18. The Bat

    The Bat Jim Lee Fanatic

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    WELL SAID good Sir!!:applaud Totally agree!!
     
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  19. Green Goblin

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    Yea I don't think rises is all that great.
     
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  20. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    Even before TDKR, I already thought Batman Begins prevented this trilogy to be perfect.
     
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  21. DACrowe

    DACrowe Well-Known Member

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    Hilariously enough, the more time passes, the more I realize that Rises is a fantastic film. It's not as good as TDK and that disappointment clouds that. But it has become abundantly clear that it far surpasses Begins in almost every way. It really does.
     
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  22. Green Goblin

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    I can think of several ways in which Begins suprases Rises...
    1. Least amount of Plot Holes
    2. Closeness to the source material
    3. The amount of Batman in it
    4. Exploration of the Protaganist's character.
    Just a few to name off the top of my head.
     
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  23. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your points, except enough Batman. There's barely any visible Batman in BB. And then again you have worse dialogue, worse action, worse villains in BB as well.

    I rate both TDKR and BB the same but for very different reasons. And if for the fun I prefer TDKR.
     
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  24. Green Goblin

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    But BB was an Origin some it's forgivable. There was like a little over half an hour of Batman in TDKR so I'm 70% sure that BB would have more than that!
    BB covers alot of what TDKR covers and does them alot better too.
     
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  25. DACrowe

    DACrowe Well-Known Member

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    It is all subjective, but there are actually very, very few plot holes in Rises (though I know of some). It is just an Internet buzz word.

    Closeness to the source material is inconsequential to myself. As is the amount of time Bruce Wayne is in costume.

    I'd say they both explore Bruce Wayne thoroughly. But while BB goes through the generic and formulaic motion of the "origin story" or Campbellian journey--which I think it does better than any other film--there is nothing formulaic about TDKR. It is challenging and asks a question that no comic book writer would ever dare: What if the hero reaches a point where being a superhero is hazardous to his mental and physical health? What if Bruce Wayne can overcome the trauma?

    The screenplay, IMHO, is much smarter and while more reliant on genre cliches than TDK, is blessedly removed from the many that BB falls into. It also asks some fascinating questions about cultural unease and populism while pulling just as much from Charles Dickens as it does Frank Miller. Beyond that, Selina Kyle is a much better realized character, and way better acted, than Rachel Dawes; Bane is a far more memorable villain than Ra's Al Ghul; and the film as a whole is visually far more ambitious and contains richer performances from a more diverse supporting cast.

    It also has, strangely, the most original ending for a superhero movie besides, well, TDK. BB is the classic Batman story. The fact that were was nothing well-worn in TDKR besides that stupid bomb is an advantage.

    Just my opinion.
     
    #975
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